Helpful ReplyHot!Well how about the new Sat. opener ?

Page: < 12345.. > >> Showing page 5 of 8
Author
eyesandgillz
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3179
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2003/06/18 11:30:03
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/15 11:14:43 (permalink)
Yep, the deer got a pass from us on the last Saturday.  Was going to hunt with my daughter in an archery only spot but with the torrential downpours most of the day, not going to do that.  She had a soccer game at 2pm (indoor) which she won, a scored a goal, so there is that.  We will try to hit it in the late season when we can get time.
fishin coyote
Moderator
  • Total Posts : 1294
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2002/05/04 07:31:21
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/15 14:56:29 (permalink)
I won’t bother with the numbers because there is enough negativity in this post. It was a frustrating gun season for me, for the 1st time in 40+ seasons I lost/wounded a buck with a rifle. I also missed a big doe and passed on a couple of small one. Time to get out the smoke pole.
Mike

Nothing is Free!!
Reward equals Effort


dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3354
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/15 19:13:29 (permalink)
mr.crappie
dpms, IMO the numbers of bucks shot is not as important as the % of hunters that get deer in each season. 



I posted success rates as well. Both rifle and archery hunters experience similar success rates on antlered deer. Around 15-17%. Those success rates are not much different than they were prior to AR/HR.

My rifle is a black rifle
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3354
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/15 19:17:34 (permalink)
We toughed it out in the steady rain Saturday. I was able to push a nice wide buck past one of my buddies twice but he could never get a good shot at it. I saw two legal bucks Saturday and a half dozen does. 
post edited by dpms - 2019/12/15 19:20:02

My rifle is a black rifle
DarDys
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 4265
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2009/11/13 08:46:21
  • Location: Duncansville, PA
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/16 07:33:41 (permalink)
dpms
mr.crappie
dpms, IMO the numbers of bucks shot is not as important as the % of hunters that get deer in each season. 



I posted success rates as well. Both rifle and archery hunters experience similar success rates on antlered deer. Around 15-17%. Those success rates are not much different than they were prior to AR/HR.


I had a great class in graduate school that had the nickname “How to Lie with Statistics.” It’s not that you are lying or even attempting to deceive, but numbers can be deceiving sometimes.

The success rate may be the same, but is it the same location for location, or just overall? Suburbia has probably increased, particularly due to archery and rural has probably decreased due to private land changing how those areas are hunted (haven’t seen or heard a deer drive in a decade).

Of course, we will never know. The PGC has always used estimates to determine harvest numbers and how accurate they are is up for debate, and often is debated. (On a side note, growing up, on of the big jokes was knowing how many bucks were going to be killed on the opening day while it was only Thanksgiving and it hadn’t happened yet — our neighbor’s sister, who came to their house for Thanksgiving was the person responsible for getting those numbers out in a press release — which were mailed in those days — and since she and the rest of the administration had off Thanksgiving, Friday, and Monday, and the story needed to be in the paper Tuesday morning, she mailed the harvest numbers before leaving the office on Wednesday. Not that it mattered.)

Further, even if the data were pure, the change from counties to WMUS, rendered it historically useless.

Also, the hunter make-up has changed. Back in the day of a million hunters, many were very casual hunters. We took a lot of guys with us to try to get them a deer because they “hadn’t killed a deer in 20 years,” even under those conditions. Those folks, for the most part have dropped out, leaving a better hunter population. I liken this to going fishing where 90% of the fish are caught by 10% of the fishermen, but then removing the 90% (or in the case of deer hunters, 59%) of the casual fishermen and the remaining fisherman have the same success rate as the whole cohort population had previously. The success rate remained the same percentage wise, but it doesn’t relate the overall picture.

All I know success percentage wise that I know a lot of good, experienced hunters and more of them did not see a deer in the general season than killed one, buck or doe and that the largest processor in the county is down almost 50%.

When a person who guided for a living in Alaska for 35 years spends every day of the general season still hunting and sees two tails, that’s not right.
post edited by DarDys - 2019/12/16 07:50:54

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
CAPTAIN HOOK
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 2315
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2002/09/28 22:31:08
  • Location: N.W. Pa.
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/16 09:37:37 (permalink)
It's a simple formula .....rifle hunting bucks in Pa.
 
I guess if you hunt with 10 guys and all are pushing deer your success rate is high . If you hunt private posted land and have nice permanent stands up and friends pushing deer around ,your success rate is high. If you hunt public land or national forest or with less than 3 people your success rate is very low.
 
I know these percentages posted are saying things are the same as pre AR's but one only has to look around with eyes open and see they are not. Like I said ...we use to drive by camps and see bucks actually hanging from camp poles ....some camps had 2-3 bucks hanging , some had 1, some had none , but one thing for sure in those days there were bucks hanging and you didn't go too far without seeing a buck hanging near a camp.....try that now ! ....lol 
 
Like I said out of 20 avid rifle hunters in my area not one scored a buck ....again !   
 
To me seeing is believing ....not percentage numbers juggled .
mr.crappie
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 2406
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2002/09/05 21:51:29
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/16 10:05:53 (permalink)
dpms, If the #of 17% for both firearms & bows is correct then my gang of 10 bowhunters is among the best in Pa. every year for at least the past 5 yrs they have averaged approx. 80% with many passed up for the others. I personally don't have a prob. with the PGC using estimates since you would prob. never get hunters to turn in their report cards anyways. I liken it to the same as asking someone what their bowling or golf aver. is, It is not going to be correct,but usually close enough to be used as a benchmark. That said I must say that although my crew did very well, even they reported seeing fewer deer & less hunters than ever. btw most of them hunt on public land.  sam
BeenThereDoneThat.
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 9764
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2014/05/14 07:30:39
  • Location: A Field or A Float
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/16 10:45:50 (permalink)
In closing, may I present some FFT (a/k/a; something to think about)

The PGC does "not" fabricate statistics regarding the kil...... ehhhh, harvest of the elusive PA White Tailed Deer.

The PGC "is" however, guilty of wasting the money of the (fast becoming) elusive PA hunter(s).

Wasting money, hiring bogus "outside study groups" that do/have/will fabricate statistics regarding the (definite) "killing" of the elusive, PA White Tailed Deer Herds.

Further more, why would any "outside study group", making their living generating statistics regarding the "wishes of the PGC" say anything other than, what the PGC wants thier bread & butter to hear?

With that, the reports of the "real" life hunting experience I'm reading this season..... thanks for the (not so good) memories. I am BTDT!🤗

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3354
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/16 12:25:43 (permalink)
DarDys
I had a great class in graduate school that had the nickname “How to Lie with Statistics.” It’s not that you are lying or even attempting to deceive, but numbers can be deceiving sometimes.
The success rate may be the same, but is it the same location for location, or just overall? Suburbia has probably increased, particularly due to archery and rural has probably decreased due to private land changing how those areas are hunted (haven’t seen or heard a deer drive in a decade).

 
No deception intended. It is overall success. Deer populations and harvest were distributed differently 30 years ago than they are now. People that hunted where deer numbers were lower 30 years ago saw less success than people that hunted where deer numbers were higher 30 years ago. The same holds true today. That gets back to my previous point. Hunting remains good for hunters that are hunting where the deer are and not so good for hunters that hunt where there are fewer deer. Same now as then. Overall, success rates are not much different.
 
And to the surprise of some that think archery hunters are killing all of the deer, success rates for archery hunters on antlered deer  are close to success rates of rifle hunters. 
 
 
post edited by dpms - 2019/12/16 12:32:55

My rifle is a black rifle
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3354
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/16 12:27:06 (permalink)
CAPTAIN HOOK 
Like I said out of 20 avid rifle hunters in my area not one scored a buck ....again !   



 
If no bucks are being killed, why haven't the buck numbers improved in your area? 

My rifle is a black rifle
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3354
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/16 12:32:09 (permalink)
mr.crappie
dpms, If the #of 17% for both firearms & bows is correct then my gang of 10 bowhunters is among the best in Pa. every year for at least the past 5 yrs they have averaged approx. 80% with many passed up for the others. 




 
There are around 350,000 archery hunters in the state. An 80% success rate on antlered deer would equate to 280,000 antlered deer in archery.  Your gang is doing exceptional with a 80% success rate. In my circle of friends, the hard core archery hunters see good success, but they hunt 20 plus days of the season. Most hunt 4-5 days on weekends. I bet their success is less than 10% in archery. 
post edited by dpms - 2019/12/16 12:33:27

My rifle is a black rifle
CAPTAIN HOOK
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 2315
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2002/09/28 22:31:08
  • Location: N.W. Pa.
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/16 14:43:54 (permalink)
dpms
CAPTAIN HOOK 
Like I said out of 20 avid rifle hunters in my area not one scored a buck ....again !   



 
If no bucks are being killed, why haven't the buck numbers improved in your area? 


 Wish I knew .....many are not legal and for some unknown reason not improving ...sometimes a 6 point stays a 6 point forever....seems by the last few reports here archery hunters are harvesting bucks way better than rifle hunters....just like I stated our buck pool at work was...archery hunters far out produced rifle kills the past 5 years I was there.
 
dpms
 
 That gets back to my previous point. Hunting remains good for hunters that are hunting where the deer are and not so good for hunters that hunt where there are fewer deer. Same now as then. Overall, success rates are not much different.
 
And to the surprise of some that think archery hunters are killing all of the deer, success rates for archery hunters on antlered deer are close to success rates of rifle hunters. 
 
 



Hard to hunt deer where they are if posted signs line both sides of a road for miles....once again hunting in Pa. is  becoming more privatized hunting in many areas , just like many other states. Sure we have more game lands and that's good, but the reality is they are not everyone's choice due to crowded conditions or far travel or harder conditions to hunt in. Remember you must park in parking lots on GL's even though you hunt farther away ....not easy dragging deer. 
 
I know locally we have deer ...city deer , suburb deer that in no way can rifle hunters pursue...archery yes... and they do get them. That's why I personally find the numbers PGC posts can't be true . Most archery hunters I know do fairly well every year on bucks, can't say the same on rifle hunters .       
CAPTAIN HOOK
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 2315
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2002/09/28 22:31:08
  • Location: N.W. Pa.
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/16 15:18:28 (permalink)
Trivia time ......this year was a first in our hunting area ....no snow all rifle season here in 1A. 
 
Usually some snow the last few days over the past years, but none here at all.
Truthfully the last good full snowy seasons I remember was 2006 ,but my memory is somewhat rusty so I'm not betting.
 
Without a deer cart there's no way ...yea we still drag or cart all our deer .....no ATV's ...we're real hunters ...not FB or TV celebs . 
 
Hey thunder ...you guys eat the heart after a kill ?  ......lol
bingsbaits
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 5166
  • Reward points: 0
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/16 16:18:06 (permalink)
So I'm not a real hunter because I am smart enough to drag my kill out with an ATV?? Bunch of whiners..You want private land to hunt ?? Pony up and buy your own ...Pay the property taxes on it each year...
Boo Hooo, life changes every day, you can't live in the past as many on here are whining about...I suppose you probably blame the lack of snow on the PGC also...They are there to protect and manage the critters of this state and they do a pretty good job..No I don't agree with all of their positions but sure do back them...Their job isn't to cow toe to every whim and try to keep the hunters all happy..  Hey look at that I can see three doe out in the Posted Private Property across the road.. Greedy bastard..Oops that's my field..Sorry..Not

"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
 
 


DarDys
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 4265
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2009/11/13 08:46:21
  • Location: Duncansville, PA
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/16 17:05:44 (permalink)
^^^^^

We have private posted ground, paid for it, paid taxes, plant food, cut paths, etc.

They were here, but aren’t now.

That’s not our fault.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
anzomcik
Expert Angler
  • Total Posts : 723
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2007/07/31 05:16:41
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/16 17:49:13 (permalink)
Bing, great post.

Dardys, picking from a previous post, I want to be sure I understand. After 14 years of AR you had 20+ shooter bucks on camera. In the last 5 years that has tanked to nearly zero. Local information you have tells you deer harvest is lower the past 5 years compared to previous years. The reasons are unknown for this reduction, but with fewer deer being shot it’s reasonable to think deer numbers would go up?

What do you think is the cause
CAPTAIN HOOK
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 2315
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2002/09/28 22:31:08
  • Location: N.W. Pa.
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/16 23:20:00 (permalink)
I tell it like it is ...if I hit a nerve it's all pure truth and for some it stings their man pride a little  ....some like to think they are good hunters with no competition around so be it . Your land, your taxes , your deer...I get it ..... I'm just looking to enjoy the sport of hunting and not walk around looking at trees. I'd like to shoot, but the PGC holds us back with AR's... that's a fact.
 
I hunt semi private land now days ...owner lets most in...it's not posted with signs but I had ask permission years ago . I speak for others not as fortunate that would like to keep hunting ....land access is an major issue for present and future hunters.  
 
 I'm not whining just stating facts past and present . If the PGC is happy loosing thousands of hunters each year so be it ...they are doing great. Wonder why kids show no interest in hunting ....I've stating the obvious reasons ......but they can turn to fishing ...it's open to all and the rules are pretty much standard across the state ...nice even open playing field for all with little changes every year ....and lots of fun !  
 
Look at that kids.... more posted signs going up across the road  .....just keep playing your video games .....fishing season is coming soon ! **** it's snowing too ....PGC must have bought snow making machines with all those doe permits they sell... bout time ! .....lol     
anzomcik
Expert Angler
  • Total Posts : 723
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2007/07/31 05:16:41
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/17 06:59:37 (permalink)
Hook, whats your hang up with land owners who choose to post their land? 
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3354
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/17 08:08:39 (permalink)
A few questions......
 
Deer numbers; For those that claim that deer are not being killed in the areas you hunt, why have the numbers not rebounded? 
 
Posted land; Does it only exist in certain areas of the state? I think it is reasonable to assume that everybody has to deal with posted land. If no one is killing deer on public land as some claim, then the deer are being killed on private and people have to be hunting it. You know how people get access to posted ground? They ask permission and never stop trying to secure hunting spots. 
 
Genetics; It is pretty well been shown that it is about impossible to alter the genetics on a free ranging herd. On high fenced operations in Texas, they still shoot "genetically inferior" deer. It is very likely that people that are seeing sub legal bucks are just seeing young bucks and not old genetically inferior bucks. Yes, there are exceptions to this rule, but they would be rare. 

My rifle is a black rifle
psu_fish
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3028
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2008/08/28 22:37:11
  • Location: PA
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/17 08:17:37 (permalink)
Funny you mention genetics....with the 3-up rule, PGC is protecting more and more scrub bucks from being harvested, we have seen more and more 6-pts that aren't legal in 2D.
post edited by psu_fish - 2019/12/17 08:23:55
CAPTAIN HOOK
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 2315
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2002/09/28 22:31:08
  • Location: N.W. Pa.
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/17 08:31:14 (permalink)
Nothing Anz ,that's their right ...just saying when one says move to where the deer are in higher numbers to improve your hunting odds it just isn't that simple with miles of posted property....as a matter of fact it's usually impossible . So that answer doesn't work most times. 
 
I guess I've been stating the wrong answers or questions here... I apologize ....but why is hunting so good in your areas and not as good in other areas like mine ?  You seem to posts all is really good in your hunting areas , nice size bucks around , good number of kills every year, your satisfied with PGC changes, but many other hunters seem to struggle just seeing deer especially bucks. What's the secret ? or what's wrong here ?   
 
I'm not trying to be a smart azz either ....I'm just curious .
 
 
post edited by CAPTAIN HOOK - 2019/12/17 09:30:17
eyesandgillz
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3179
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2003/06/18 11:30:03
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/17 09:23:42 (permalink)
psu_fish
Funny you mention genetics....with the 3-up rule, PGC is protecting more and more scrub bucks from being harvested, we have seen more and more 6-pts that aren't legal in 2D.




Sounds like AR/HR is working as intended in your area.  Probably better habitat now and lots of those sixer's are probably well fed, nice 1.5 year olds. 
CAPTAIN HOOK
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 2315
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2002/09/28 22:31:08
  • Location: N.W. Pa.
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/17 09:41:27 (permalink)
eyesandgillz


Sounds like AR/HR is working as intended in your area.  Probably better habitat now and lots of those sixer's are probably well fed, nice 1.5 year olds. 




So AR/ HR's basically protect bucks for 1 year , because the Pa. biologists say by their studies most deer killed are only 2.5 years old....not much gain I'd say after 17 years of protection or restrictions .   
CAPTAIN HOOK
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 2315
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2002/09/28 22:31:08
  • Location: N.W. Pa.
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/17 09:41:28 (permalink)
double posts for some odd reason......
post edited by CAPTAIN HOOK - 2019/12/17 09:42:33
rsquared
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 2196
  • Reward points: 0
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/17 10:06:52 (permalink)
dpms
You know how people get access to posted ground? They ask permission and never stop trying to secure hunting spots. 



A lot easier said than done.  
 
To take Captain's example of land that used to be open and gets posted - dunno about your experience, but when that happens it usually means NOBODY gets in anymore.  And of course there are the properties where nobody but family and close friends have gotten in for decades.  Not a complaint and I certainly don't begrudge a landowner the right to do what they want with their property, but that's the reality.  
 
Leases in 2B and 2D where I hunt are becoming more common.  Don't even bother asking in that situation.  
 
On the edge of the suburbs or where the suburbs are creeping/have crept into more rural areas, land is lost every year to development that will never be open to hunting again.  
 
Despite the huge losses in PA hunting population over the past 20 years, we've still got a lot of hunters vying for a shrinking habitat.  Not a big problem for guys like me that get 4 weeks of vacation a year and have a pretty flexible work schedule.  Guessing you have a pretty similar set up based on your posts here.  
 
For the large % of hunters that don't have that, or the means to buy or lease land, or to drive 3 hours round trip to hunt good property is something they might have the time to do a handful of times a season.  
DarDys
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 4265
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2009/11/13 08:46:21
  • Location: Duncansville, PA
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/17 10:58:08 (permalink)
anzomcik
Bing, great post.

Dardys, picking from a previous post, I want to be sure I understand. After 14 years of AR you had 20+ shooter bucks on camera. In the last 5 years that has tanked to nearly zero. Local information you have tells you deer harvest is lower the past 5 years compared to previous years. The reasons are unknown for this reduction, but with fewer deer being shot it’s reasonable to think deer numbers would go up?

What do you think is the cause


Honestly, I don’t know. But I could venture some educated guesses — none of which is the sole root cause, but part of a combination that is probably responsible.

HR didn’t start with AR. HR started, not as an intentional herd management tool, but as a revenue stream.

Way back when, it was one and done. If you killed a buck, the doe license, which used the same tag, was void. Bucks were shot on a frequency that a lot of guys I knew didn’t bother to spend the money on a doe license.

The herd was large, way overpopulated with does, so the PGC changed to being able to kill a buck and a doe, with the idea that they would sell more doe, now tags. This did a couple of things. It kept guys hunting, namely those that knew what they were doing, instead of them being done after tagging a buck. It also permitted the casual hunters more opportunity because there simply were more hunters in the woods. We hunted southern to central Clearfield County at the time, an area which was fairly populated with deer camps. Those camps, when it was one and done, were a buzz from Thanksgiving to the first Wednesday. There were some folks around the first and last Saturday, but it was mostly beer drinking and card playing. It was normal to literally see 50-70 deer.

When it changed to a buck and a doe, the camps were populated more days and with guys determined to get two deer. Keep in mind, while this wasn’t subsistence hunting, two deer went a long way toward the winter meat bill. At this point, we started to normally see 20-30 deer.

Then, someone at the PGC figured out that they could put more doe tags in the system and sell the extra ones as “bonus” tags and have an even greater impact on their revenue stream. With so many tags available, those camps started to community hunt and guys that hadn’t shot a deer in decades, maybe never even ventured out with gun in hand, took home a tagged deer. Our sightings dropped to 15 or less per day.

Then AR/HR kicked in with concurrent seasons, it was brown and down with bunches of tags, and sightings dropped to less than 10 per day. We quit hunting there because of that. The herd size was reduced to a very small number in comparison to what it once was and it was no longer worth the long drive over bad roads and the 2+ hour drag to get a deer out, so we started hunting much closer to home and were seeing the same 10 or less deer.

At this point, we sought out private ground to hunt and secured enough spots that still had ample populations. In fact, I deer hunted a pheasant preserve where I guided for birds for 6-8 years. The guy that owned it and his buddies were big time archery trophy hunters, so my mission was simple —reduce the doe population, which I did not mind doing. It was nothing to see 25-30 in an evening, much like the old days. But all good things come to an end, as did this.

But we bought this new ground and there were deer on it, not lots, but more than average, and some bucks the likes I had never seen. And life and sightings were good, both physically and on camera. Over the next 5 years, as you noted, things have gotten progressively worse.

So here are the theories.

Society has changed. We have much more to do and hunting, if it is not going well gets pushed aside for other things. The loss of hunters is mainly the loss of casual hunters. And these folks were essential in the good hunters getting deer. They entered the woods late, moving deer. They smelled, moving deer. They got cold and left early for lunch, moving deer. They got bored and did drives, moving deer. They heard home early, moving deer.

Who is left out there are the dedicated hunters who don’t move, have good clothes that they don’t get cold in, blinds which cut the wind, etc.

More and more are hunting private land, with less hunters on it. And deer are not moved. This leads deer to act, well, like deer. They sleep in the day unless there is an unusual weather or people event and feed and move at night. My cameras bear this out. Last year I didn’t have a daylight photo of a buck from August on.

Those that are seeing deer in the daylight are catching them between feeding and bedding, but with small parcels, in my area, that’s not always possible, in fact, it’s improbable. Some of the guys I know are hunting 800 to 1,500 acres with 4-6 guys in total, all of whom may not be there at the same time, especially in archery due to the long season.

Add in that some deer enter this private conglomerate of land from a huge mountain SGL and another societal factor kicks in — with so few sightings, guys are taking the first legal deer they see and those are more than likely does because this is a CWD area, which makes them legal in any season. The results are a lower population, perhaps to that 10 deer per square mile level, and another hunter not in the woods again to move deer, even inadvertently. Heck, I tried to piggyback in a hunt with an outdoor writer friend of mine the first Saturday and he told me point blank, “I got a deer in the freezer (he killed a 5-point opening day, it was the only deer he saw except for a 4-point dragging the other one out), I still hunted two days for doe in the fresh snow without seeing a tail, so I’m going to lay on the couch and bet on college football.” If one would think of a person to hunt everyday of the season, it should have been him.

So, what I have here is herds under 10 deer per square mile; no casual hunters to move deer; good hunters taking the first available deer and calling it a season; extremely lightly hunted private ground; and who knows what else.

I do think that it is the HR to the 10 deer per square mile factor mostly though. With a balanced buck to doe ratio of probably 1-3, that means only 6-7 does get breed. Some get killed in hunting season, some die on the roads, some die of old age, some no longer are breedable (we had three old does around this summer that had no fawns); some fawns are lost to predators, including eagles, and the population never gains any ground.

The bucks that used to travel to find does, don’t. They breed the very localized ones, not wasting the energy to travel far and wide in search of.

But it is all conjecture.

What is fact is they were here, now they are not. And those that remain are nocturnal.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
BeenThereDoneThat.
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 9764
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2014/05/14 07:30:39
  • Location: A Field or A Float
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/17 10:58:51 (permalink)
Posted land??? Wouldn't be because the PGC has created this situation with the changes they made to hunting.... nahhhh, such a silly idea.

So... let me guess, it's "hunting clubs" leasing large acreage for their own private hunting reserve. Likely by hunters not able to afford or don't want headaches of owning land..... nahhh.

Buttttt heck, why would one need join a hunting club when game and open land is so plentiful. Gosh, the PGC makes available a million + acres of public hunting grounds, known as "state game lands", by which the PGC benefits from drilling wells and clear cutting the timber. Ooops silly me, the clear cutting thingy, that's good for the wild game [wink.. wink].

Anybody who has actually hunted these game lands knows, many acres require a swamp buggy or mules to access the areas, if in fact, you can cross private lands to access the game land. Talk about the old adage, "I got some land I'll sell ya", welp the PGC is your guy. Yeah yeah, I know, the land is first bought by a conservancy. [wink wink]

Let me think.... how about because ARs create and support unlevel 'hunting' fields, especially in areas heavily occupied by multiple large families.

Wouldn't be because the older generation must sit idle and watch as the juvenile generation shoots the same deer the senior hunter must pass. Least not forget the number of juveniles taking "numbers" of buck under the 2.5 year range. Nope, again "stats" say otherwise.

Who would believe the deer population in any one area can get heavily reduced, the first couple weeks of archery season.... nahhh the introduction of and production of cheap crossbows would have nooooo affect on the deer taken, from any one area. Yep I know.. stats produced by the PGC and published in "other" states do not support this fact..... 👍

Does make me wonder if Alt's comment "cause the predator to move to the prey" isn't working.

Gosh, gee wiz, dog-gone-it I just can't see why anyone would ever post land or join a "hunting club"..... ? I mean how difficult is it to search the internet for available "pre-posted" land a couple guys could lease.



Bing, nothing wrong with using an ATV to extract your harvest from field or forest. No problem with using an ATV for transportation into or from your hunting stand, or to check multiple field cams. (all year long) I've used such devices myself in recent years. Unfortunately, today it's required if, one wants any chance at all at taking an elusive (record book) PA White Tailed Buck. Just not my cup of tea as it does not come near the style of hunting I am accustomed too. You see, before ARs, such devices were never needed except to those who may be 'up in years' or physically challenged.

Don't get me wrong, those in favor of ARs can use such devices in accomplishing their goals.

I and others posting against the AR's only want a level playing field.... we have our pride too, we just don't care if our buck makes the record books, or need the pictures to sell our story or promote products.


The Capt. & I don't see "eye to eye" on some subjects but I'll guarantee I've seen what he's saying.

A search of my rants will show I've disaproved (for years) of ARs and commented about the affects of the unfair playing fields generated by the PGC. My Rants will also show I warned of my experience afield with ARs coming to an area near you... soon. The difference then, I was the only one ranting.

As far as owning and posting your own land. I've a story about that and, if need be (on a bet) will provide pictures that some wouldn't believe but being the type of guy I am, will treat anybody on this board to a guided tour (on a bet) of what once was, my little piece of Penn's Woods. What you will see is heavily posted land (not mine) completely surrounded (outside/on the boundary lines) with tree stands/blinds, easily & accessed by ATV (some trails making for easy walking)

So with out further ado, "coming to your happy hunting grounds... SOON" THE PREDATOR and they know how to drive too!!!
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2019/12/17 11:23:36

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
CAPTAIN HOOK
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 2315
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2002/09/28 22:31:08
  • Location: N.W. Pa.
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/17 12:06:59 (permalink)
dpms
A few questions......
  You know how people get access to posted ground? They ask permission and never stop trying to secure hunting spots. 
 
 


 
Yea ...that's about worthless and impossible today as it was years ago on most posted areas....and they are understandable .
 
I knocked on many doors years ago ..some read me the riot act about slob hunters...parking and littering, tree stands  , others hunt their own property , one guy showed me bullet holes in his shed , one guy said spot lighting his house and fields pizzes him off...but after we talked awhile he did say go ahead , others don't believe in killing animals period, some had no idea who owned the property posted ...........also you ever go down a long dirt driveway to a shack house way back in the woods with signs saying no trespassing , or trespassers will be shot on sight  ? ...me neither . 
 
Good luck with that one ! 
post edited by CAPTAIN HOOK - 2019/12/17 12:25:51
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3354
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/17 12:13:00 (permalink)
psu_fish
Funny you mention genetics....with the 3-up rule, PGC is protecting more and more scrub bucks from being harvested, we have seen more and more 6-pts that aren't legal in 2D.



That is by design as those "scrubs" are just young bucks that will be older and have more antler the following year. It is a very, very rare 3.5 y/o buck in this state that doesn't meet AR minimums. 
post edited by dpms - 2019/12/17 12:16:09

My rifle is a black rifle
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3354
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/17 12:15:15 (permalink)
....
 
post edited by dpms - 2019/12/17 12:18:17

My rifle is a black rifle
Page: < 12345.. > >> Showing page 5 of 8
Jump to: