AR and high-grading

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SPIKER
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/05 15:50:46 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: kayaker

how can AR work when adults shoot any buck that moves and if they walk up to it and it is illegal, oh well looks like junior will have to tag it. i would be willing to bet that about 40% of junior buck kills are done by daddy, relative, or close family friend. isnt AR WONDERFUL



Exactly,PA is sorry excuse of what it once was!!!I hunt NY and passed up 3 small bucks first day 2 years ago before a nice 2 year old came out and I shot it,did have a little ground shrinkage though.Last year passed a small buck first day and killed my biggest ever second day.

We have no antler restrictions here,and it is way better hunting than my old stomping grounds (Bradford County).And I am only 15 minutes from that countys border.There not passing them up,to much tag soup going on down there the past few years.......


#91
Noplacelikehome
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/05 20:57:12 (permalink)
Spiker, if you hunt Ohio you may never hunt Pa again. Way more big bucks than Pa or N.Y.  I know I hunted both for years. Trouble is I only get to hunt Ohio 1 week a year!!!!
#92
SPIKER
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/06 00:13:05 (permalink)
I don't hunt PA anymore,gave up paying non resident fee for the third year now.No sense wasting my time/money in a baron wasteland of deer......

Never hunted Ohio but seen hunters take some huge bucks there on TV past couple years,must be doing something right in that state!!!!



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Skeeter5
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/07 11:40:48 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10

PA's buck production has grown leaps and bounds, quantity and quality. If they held the scoring meetings regularly, I would agree with your statement, but they dont. I dont think AR will work everywhere, but in NWPA, it is doing wonders.


Care to point to any documented evidence to back up that statement. Since the buck kill dropped fron 200,000 to 120,000/140/000 including the junior kill the first statement cannot be true and I'am not aware of any proof of the second. I live in NWPA, am in the woods most days and see no huge change in antler devlopment.

 
The only evidence you are giving me is harvest data. OF COURSE the harvest figures went down..... thats the point of AR!!  I said buck production and quality has increased.  As far as statistics..... well, I go by what I see.  If you are not seeing bigger and more bucks, well then I would like to know where you hunt in NWPA.  Cuz, in the two counties I hunt it is very clear.  So far this year, 3 nights on stand, here is what I have seen.  First night 29 deer, 7 buck.  Second night 9 doe, Third night, 7 doe one buck.  All of the buck I have seen so far have been legal except one ( a small six)  12 button bucks (some may have been the same)......  All I can say is I go on what I see, and have recorded in my years of hunting.  That being said, I am not your normal PA hunter.  I hunt almost EVERY day, either in PA or OHIO..... and I keep a journal, run around 30 trail cams, etc.  I DO have a pretty good idea of whats going on in my area.  Now, yours may be different, i get that.  That is probably where MY biggest gripe is...... The management units are enormous..... and cannot be managed appropriately based on what I know.    Again, this is just one man's opinion..... 
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MuskyMastr
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/07 12:27:32 (permalink)
There is a solid opinion regarding the issue.  Wmu size is a huge part of the problem.  Rosenberry publicly said that they don't have the money to manage on any smaller of a scale (which I believe, thier operating budget is less than most high schools in the state).   And the kicker is that if they would change the wmu system now we are back to square 1 as far as dealing with data set inconsistency.

Better too far back, than too far forward.
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Skeeter5
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/07 13:21:31 (permalink)
What I dont understand....."the lack of money to manage smaller units".  This makes no sense to me..... If you are already overseeing the larger area, you just need to reapply your already collected data more specifically.  How does this cost more money????  How does every other state (pretty much) do it???  NY has no game commission, just the DEP, and there units are more in line than ours????  I think NY has like 100 management units??  I just dont get it.... and no one can seem to explain it.  In my opinion, in just exposes how vague their data collection practices are...... and they dont like that..... THIS SUCKS!!
#96
MuskyMastr
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/07 13:43:07 (permalink)
Other states have much higher operating budgets and recieve money from thier state's general fund.  Pa gets license sale money only.  (which is fine because it somewhat keeps the politicians out of the management mix).  To manage a smaller level requires more personel to handle data, enforcement, etc....there is a lot of behind the scenes jobs involved in dealing with management units.  The current annual budget for the PGC is less than a local school district that graduates 100 kids a year.

Better too far back, than too far forward.
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S-10
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/07 15:21:59 (permalink)
The reason they gave as justification for going to WMU's had nothing to do with money. They said they were doing it to make the boundries easier to identify and to make it easier to manage the habitat, as the same type habitat would be reflected in the WMU. This would allow for the maximun number of deer the habitat would allow. In my case my area, which boarders he ANF and is a lot of woods is considered the same as the vineyards, farms, and apple orchards of North East, Erie, and the like. Not a fair comparison or the same potential for deer.
#98
eyesandgillz
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/07 15:30:12 (permalink)
And yet, if we could get more than the 40% of the successful hunters to submit their harvest data, we'd be miles ahead with our current program.  It still all comes back to us "hunters" for the lack of data the PGC gets to use to make decisions. 
 
And to add one note re: high grading, in the southern states (Mississippi, etc.) where high grading is a possible issue, their rifle season comes in well before their peak breeding season.  Here in PA, our rifle season comes in after the peak of the rut when the majority of the does should have been bred so even if the "better" 1.5yr olds with nicer racks were taken from the herd in rifle season, they had their chance to breed and pass on their genes.  1.5 yr olds and 2.5 yr olds still get themselves some, especially when ARs were first started due to the high doe population and lower percentage of bucks in the general deer population.  Age and nutrition still have a bigger impact on a buck's antler size in PA because all things considered, PA has good deer genetics.   
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S-10
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/07 16:11:25 (permalink)
Of course 25% of those biggest bucks get killed in archery season before the peak of the rut so never get a chance to breed. BTY--- won't take a position on it now but I watched a program on outdoor channel last week and the experts on that program said genetics and feed play the biggest role in antler development. I know there are numerous 2-1/2 year olds in high fence areas that reach 170 gross B&C and the seamen from the super bucks sells for a lot of money. Must be a reason.
CrossForkWookie
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/07 16:48:59 (permalink)
Seamen?  You in the navy lol.
 
With the new license sales being online, I don't buy the fact that data can be hard to come by.  The game commission should make it so every year you go buy a license, before you do you either complete a survey at the site or do it online before you go purchase your license for the year.  Think of the data they could get doing something like that.  With computers the way they are they could generate any report they wanted with a push of a button......so I don't buy the big extra cost thing.  Hire some programmers and get to work.
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/07 17:34:56 (permalink)
Regarding what Eyes and S10 posted about breeding, there was a very interesting article in Field & Stream this month by Scott Bestul called "Rut Myths Debunked" based on a study by Texas A&M at the King Ranch in Texas.

A quote from the article (since I couldn't find it online): "Tracing conception dates showed that virtually all of the fawns sired by immature bucks came from the absolute peak of the rut. Conversely, fawns sired by mature bucks were conceived at a variety of dates before, during and after the rut peak."

". . . the King Ranch is intesively managed. Up to 30% of the bucks here are at least 5 1/2 years old, and we shoot bunches of does. Even then, immature bucks did plenty of breeding. Most wild populations will have far fewer mature bucks and be lest balanced . . . even the most mature, aggressive breeder can tend only a handful of does each year."


The conclusions by Bestul:
"If you have the luxury of managing property and want to see a certain buck reach another age class, then don't shoot him. JUST UNDERSTAND THAT IN ALL LIKELIHOOD THE GENETICS OF THE HERD WON'T BE AFFECTED ONE WAY OR ANOTHER BY YOUR DECISION."

I guess I personally don't really have an opinion on this, seeing as how I'm not a real "trophy" hunter in the true sense of the word. If we were not under AR, I'd shoot the first legal buck I could. Under AR, I'm a "trophy" hunter because of the law. But it was interesting reading for those who are into trophy hunting and trophy management.
S-10
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/07 20:51:12 (permalink)
Sounds more like his conclusions are just his opinion although he is correct on some of the data. Look up king ranch, they have a number of ongoing studies relating to genetics, antler growth, etc.
sugarfuzz12
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/07 22:03:17 (permalink)
regardless if a deer breeds young or when he gets old (all you compared in the field and stream article) they still have the same genes whether they are 1.5 or 5.5 yrs old
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/07 23:45:03 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: sugarfuzz12

regardless if a deer breeds young or when he gets old (all you compared in the field and stream article) they still have the same genes whether they are 1.5 or 5.5 yrs old


That's exactly right fuzz. I think the point was that thinking the mature bucks with exceptional racks (which I think we agree are strongly influenced by genetics, in addition to age and food) are not the ONLY deer doing the breeding. They are only contributing to a relatively small percentage of the breeding.

So in a state like PA with antler restrictions, you might reach the conclusion that a deer with inferior genes - say like a 2.5 or 3.5 year old 6 point which is not legal in 10 WMU's in PA - will spend 3 or more years of its life passing on inferior genes while a 1.5 year old 8 point that probably has good to superior genes can be taken out of the herd after only one breeding season.

As I said, I really don't have a dog in this fight. More or less thought it was an interesting piece of information that some might find relevant to this discussion.
sugarfuzz12
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/08 05:32:02 (permalink)
ya but without AR the bucks without good genes were also getting shot after one year of breeding.  kinda catch 22.
SilverKype
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/08 08:57:15 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: sugarfuzz12

ya but without AR the bucks without good genes were also getting shot after one year of breeding.  kinda catch 22.

 
There's a thought.

My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
DanesDad
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/08 16:19:26 (permalink)
Genetics are overrated. The genetics of PAs deer herd are not that much different than those of Ohio or Illinois. The real difference lies in the quality of food the deer consume and how much of a chance the bucks have to survive each hunting season. In a state like PA (before HR) we have a long rifle season (rifle being the easiest way to kill a buck) and a huge amount of hunters in the woods at the same time (keeping the deer up and moving). Pa was set up for a high turnover of bucks from year to year. It's no surprise that we didn't have as many trophy bucks per capita as Ohio. In Ohio, there is (I believe) a short shotgun season (not as much time to kill, with a weapon that has a smaller range than a rifle). Plus, you have large agricultural areas providing primo feed for the deer. Is it any real surprise that bucks tend to be larger racked there?

Genetically, you and I are almost exactly like the people of Somalia (probably something like 99.999% the same). Yet, here our live expectancy, weight, physical condition, and general health are much better. Because conditions are better here.

post edited by DanesDad - 2009/10/08 16:22:18
MuskyMastr
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/08 17:02:20 (permalink)
AR was never about genetics. Genetics is an interesting side issue. The original reason for AR was to shrink the standard deviation from the average conception date for our doe population. So that some were not bred in october and others not until february. Preliminary data suggests that AR is not changing these conditions significantly.

Better too far back, than too far forward.
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/08 19:40:28 (permalink)
i've been reading this thread and i can say there's a few things that made me read over them twice one is where a guy said back then a guy could see a 100 deer and shoot and shoot to feel his freezer.
 
dude really you really dont eat that much deer meat in one year my buddy shot a deer last year and got a 110 pounds of meat and still has 80 pounds of meat.
 
next is the AR talk i really dont know which way to go about this but atleast it idnt as bad as it is in the other 20 states that have AR in some counties in texas it has to have 6 points or a 13 inch spread inside, in mississippi its 4 points on one side, arkansas its 3 points on one side.
 
and the talk of guys not shooting a deer year after year is just absurd it may not be as important to them as it is to you, some guys just like to get away from the city and be in the woods and relax with some buddies hunting camp is the best place on earth for relaxation and fun.
 
it doenst matter to if i shoot a buck or not , I havent shot a buck since i was 16, 21 now its not that i havent seen multiple bucks. I just dont want any ordinary buck on my wall if i gonna get it mounted i want a trophy i like weird non-typical bucks but ill always take a doe or two the last day im gonna hunt so i can have some jerkey or sausages or something to eat if i feel like eating some deer i give most of it away, i have alot of friends who eat deer but dont hunt.
 
 

HOW YOU GETTIN HOME
S-10
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/08 20:36:01 (permalink)
The Kerr Studies," as they are commonly referred to, include spike buck research topics such as: Spike vs. Forked Antlered Yearlings 1974‑1994; Comparison of Spikes vs. Forked Antlered Deer Grown Under Field Conditions: 1983‑1986; Effects of Nutrition on Antler Development:1974-1977; Role of Genetics in Antler Development: 1974‑1984; Spike Line Herd Research: 1974‑2000; and Genetic/Environmental Interaction: 1992-2000, just to name a few.

We are talking about twenty‑seven continuous years of penned deer research! No other individuals or states have this tenure or volume of statistically proven data to back up their results.

Since 1983, TPWD biologists have been collecting deer age, weight, and antler data from hunter‑harvested deer throughout the state. Analysis of this data has demonstrated that in years with good nutritional range conditions, fewer spikes were in the harvest. They also indicated those years in which range conditions were poor, there were more spikes in the harvest. Range nutrition was affecting antler production. However, the same data also indicated that even under poor range conditions, there were some deer that produced good antlers. They also demonstrated that under good range conditions, there were always some spike‑antlered deer.

Therefore, it was reasoned that there are three types of yearling deer on the range: (1) deer that always produce forked antlers, even under adverse conditions; (2) deer that always produce spike antlers, even under good conditions; and (3) deer that produce forked antlers in good years and spike antlers in poor years. Biologists named this third group of deer "swing deer."

From a management point of view, swing deer slow management gains because poor genetic traits are masked in good years. Researchers reasoned that if there was a genetic basis for these deer, then the frequency of "swing deer" in a population could be reduced through a selection program and more rapid antler improvement would result.

Let's examine some of the findings from the twenty‑seven continuous years of Kerr WMA deer pen data:

Data indicates the best time to harvest spike‑antlered yearlings and make genetic gain in a deer herd is during periods of nutritional stress, such as droughts, or when beginning a habitat management program before the range has had a chance to recover.
Giving priority to removal of spikes during that time will help accelerate genetic gains. All antler growth is genetically based and environmentally influenced. Nutrition is an environmental influence.
In order to grow deer with large antlers, a manager should manage for the best genetic deer possible, and simultaneously manage the habitat for the best nutrition possible. This will insure those deer reach their genetic potential.
At four years of age, deer that were forked‑antlered as yearlings produced three feet more gross Boone and Crockett inches than deer that were spike‑antlered as yearlings.
Of all deer classified as spike‑antlered yearlings, NONE scored higher than 130 gross Boone and Crockett points at maturity.
At maturity, spike‑antlered yearlings averaged 17% less live body weight than yearlings with six or more points.
The number of antler points at 1.5 years was closely correlated with the number of antler points at 2.5, 3.5, and 4.5 years of age.
It was demonstrated that spike‑antlered yearlings produced smaller antlers (points, tine length, mass, circumference, beam length and spread) than forked‑antlered yearlings throughout their lifetime.
Future antler quality and body weight can be predicted based on yearling antler characteristics.
Improvement of gross Boone and Crockett scores within a herd could be accomplished by selectively culling spike-antlered yearling bucks.
The degree of success is directly proportional to the intensity of selection placed on the herd.



this was a portion of a research article done on the effects of genetics and nutrition on antler growth.


Dr. Trout
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/08 21:24:29 (permalink)
When using the Kerrs studies you have to remember a few things  ---

#1 weather.. the weather is different in Texas, especially in winter. Northern deer spend a lot of their protein and fat supplies just trying to survive a cold windy winter and that is not considering dealing with alot of snow... come spring most of the early food goes to replacing body weight instead of antler growth.  wamer climates allows that first spring feed to got to antler growth.

#2.. the studied deer were in pens... not free roaming struggling to find food... they also had to control the number of deer inside those pens... I can never find where they say how many deer were in pen each year of their studies.. and how was the breeding controlled inside those pens ???

#3.. food sources ... the deer in Texas have different food to browse on than northern deer...

South Texas where I'm from Whitetail deer love to forage on the Mesquite bean and prickly pear fruit. They also love corn which is dispensed by feeders to lure deer in. Further north, where oak trees are abundant, deer love to eat acorns.

Folk wisdom holds that South Texas deer have more massive racks where Mesquite and prickly pear are abundant. And according to this bit of folk wisdom, where deer feed on acorns they grow bigger in body size and have smaller racks.


Where in Pa do we have Mesquite bean and prickly pear fruit.  ???? 

""where deer feed on acorns they grow bigger in body size and have smaller racks."" -- could this be our deer ... 


Ohio is also not fair to compare IMHO... too much farmlands and crops.... not near as much hardwood mature forest as we have in Pa...and alot of our forest land was being destroyed with too many deer in too many areas...
acres and acres of ferns are not going to provide protein for large antler growth...

age is the number one thing allowing us to see bigger deer today... an older deer will more than likely have bigger antlers...

Here's my favorite summary from the Kerr studies...

All animals have a genetic potential that is influenced by its environment. Antler development is neither nutritional nor genetic. It is a combination of both
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/10/08 21:29:30
Dr. Trout
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/08 21:40:36 (permalink)
I did find this about number of deer in the Kerr Managment Area ( 6,493 ACRES) not per square mile but per ACRE... check it out..

Harvest of surplus deer started in 1954 with a controlled buck-only hunt. Biologists soon realized the need to harvest deer of both sexes to reduce populations to levels at or slightly below carrying capacity. Either sex hunts have been conducted since 1958. The yearly number of hunters chosen to harvest surplus deer is based on the number of deer desired to be removed. Earlier studies conducted on the Kerr have shown that a deer density of one deer per 10 acres could be maintained without a major die-off. The removal of mature stands of Ashe juniper from 1964 through 1966 brought about improved habitat for deer and increased deer numbers.


note-- to my knowledge we do not have Ashe Juniper (deer do not like this) , or at least not that I know of and again it shows they (man) was controlling the deer's environment (habitat) and food sources in the Kerr studies..  not Mother Nature ...


BTW --- deer density of one deer per 10 acres  ------ would be 6.4 deer per square mile..

The penned deer  for the antler study were in 16 acres and had about 14 deer in them...  7 of each sex..

must have fed these deer by hand most pens were/are less than an acre in size....
 
 
In1974, a high-fenced research facility was built on the Kerr Wildlife Management Area to study antler growth in white-tailed deer. This 16-acre facility consists of 6, 2/3-acre breeding pens, 3, 4-acre rearing pens, and a series of alleys, chutes, crush, and rotunda to facilitate handling of research animals. The original breeding pens consisted of 7 brood bucks (of which 6 were spikes) and 5-7 does per pen. All deer were native Texas whitetails obtained from various locations throughout the State. No additional deer were added after the fall of 1974 and the herd has been maintained as a closed, pedigreed herd ever since; perhaps the only one of its kind in the world. The original purpose of the pens was to address the following objectives:
  • To determine factors which contribute to antler formation in white-tailed deer.
  • To determine the effect of nutrition level on antler formation and body weight.
  • To determine if deer which were spike-antlered at 1.5 years of age have the same potential for antler development and body weight in later years as deer which were fork-antlered at 1.5 years of age.
  • To determine the influence of genetics on antler characteristics.

Since 1974, this facility has been used in a series of interrelated research programs to determine the role of nutrition and/or genetics in the antler development process. Although related, each program had its own research design and specific objectives. The original study was designed to determine the effects of nutrition on antler development. The second study was to determine the extent to which genetics was involved and the third compared antler development at 1.5 years of age to antler development at maturity. A fourth major study was initiated to determine how heritable certain antler characteristics really are. As a result of these studies, it was determined that antler development was genetically controlled and nutritionally influenced. The current project will demonstrate the effects of both nutrition and genetic influences on antler production. In addition to the above studies, the pens have also been used to facilitate many pilot projects, breeding experiments, demonstration efforts and as a focal point for monthly landowner field days.
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/10/08 22:13:48
S-10
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/09 09:09:49 (permalink)



BTW --- deer density of one deer per 10 acres ------ would be 6.4 deer per square mile..


You might want to check your math on this one Doc.

It doesn't matter what they were feeding on or that the feed is different from ours as they were comparing spikes to branch antlered bucks both of which were feeding on the same thing.

If you don't think a lot of Ohio is like ours you have never been to southern Ohio and hunted where I do. It's all reclaimed strip mines, Oak forests and the like. Much of Ohio is comparable to our farming country and the Erie area but they also have a lot of tough hunting and terrain comparable to ours.

As far as genetics having little to do with anything would you rather to have a basketball team fathered by Michael Jordan or Pee Wee Herman?
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/09 09:46:55 (permalink)
oppppps...
 
you are right it would be 64 dpsm...  I had that at first and figured that had to be wrong so I wrote 6.4
 
I can't believe that at 64 dpsm there is not a major die-off....
 
but if that's what they say it must be true right ???
 
so again ...at 64 dpsm that sure ain't too many areas of Penna.. 
 
I have also read some articles by those critizing the Kerr studies for some of their methods of doing the study..
 
for example --
 
...the scientists controled who bred who...
...any does that had off springs with spikes were not used again in the study..
...any does that were sisters to spikes were not used in the research.
 
1/2 the genes come form the female and they were controlling what females bred males and what males bred with what females..
 
Not a real good example of what would happened in the wild..
 
 
Dr. Trout
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/09 09:59:55 (permalink)
I had to go copy part of an article about the Kerr studies, becuase I am not so sure that if this is how the study started (using 6 of 7 bucks that were spikes and then controlling breeding it shows much of anything but what man can do to effect gentics and antler development ????

but that's just my opinion.. you are free to disagree.


The orginal breeding pens consisted of seven brood bucks, of which six were spikes, and 5 to 7 does. All deer were native Texas whitetails obtained from various locations throughout the State. No additional deer were added after the fall of 1974 and the herd has been maintained as a closed, [pedigreed herd.
The orginal purpose of the pens was to address the following objectives:
  • 1. To determine factors which contribute to antler formation in white-tailed deer.
  • 2. To determine the effect of nutrition level on antler formation and body weight.
  • 3. To determine if deer that were spike-antlered at 1 1/2-years of age (yearlings) have the same potential for antler development and body weight in later years as bucks which were fork-antlered at 1 1/2 years of age.
  • 4. To determine the influence of genetics on antler characteristics.


Since 1974, this facility has been used in a series of inter-related research programs to determine the role of nutrition and/or genetics in the antler development process. Although related, each project had its own research design and specific objectives. Due to the large sample sizes and duration of the projects, TPWD has acquired a data set that they believe is unequaled throughout the world.
A total of 2,681 deer have been born in the pens with 474 dams and 138 sires actually used in various studies resulting in 2,219 sets of antlers for analysis. As a result of these studies, several basic principles have been conclusively proven:
  • 1. Antler development is genetically based and environmentally influenced.
  • 2. Antler traits are heritable and passed from parents to offspring.
  • 3. Yearling antlers are a good indicator of future antler potential.

#1.. this is not free roaming Pa deer either..... so again I think unfair to compare Texas penned and with controlled breeding deer to Pa  wild deer....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/10/09 10:02:45
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/09 10:06:05 (permalink)
Doc wrote====1/2 the genes come form the female and they were controlling what females bred males and what males bred with what females..

Not a real good example of what would happened in the wild..


Actually they were reproducing exactly what happens in the wild when the doe runs off the young bucks so they can't interbreed. Many of the critics just didn't like the results because they counterdicted what they were trying to sell the hunters. It's the largest and longest study conducted and is still ongoing. It's also not the only state that has research pointing to the same thing. Eventually Pa. will have to admit what they already know and their own records are showing.
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/09 10:12:06 (permalink)
here's some critics and why...

In the Kerr Wildlife Management Area study, they hand selected the best 15-30% of the yearling bucks produced each year as breed sires. To duplicate this in the wild, 70-85% of your yearling bucks would have to be harvested each year to insure that they did not breed. This large of a yearling buck harvest is unrealistic on very large properties.In the Kerr Wildlife Management Area study, they hand selected the best 15-30% of the yearling bucks produced each year as breed sires. To duplicate this in the wild, 70-85% of your yearling bucks would have to be harvested each year to insure that they did not breed. This large of a yearling buck harvest is unrealistic on very large properties.In the Kerr Wildlife Management Area study, they hand selected the best 15-30% of the yearling bucks produced each year as breed sires. To duplicate this in the wild, 70-85% of your yearling bucks would have to be harvested each year to insure that they did not breed. This large of a yearling buck harvest is unrealistic on very large properties.


Has nothing to do with running off... they took "off" the ones they did not want to stay in the pens....


In Part 1 of this series I highlighted the work done at the Donnie E. Harmel White-tailed Deer Research Facility at Kerr Wildlife Management Area (WMA) and at Mississippi State University. The research on pedigreed, captive herds at those facilities have yielded somewhat contradictory information about how well we can predict the future antler size based on what a buck looks like as a yearling. Some of this confusion may be due to variation in individual deer performance and differing ways the research projects were designed and executed.
It is clear, however, from a Kerr WMA study where the next generation of sires were selected based on their yearling antler characteristics that a buck’s first set of antlers can be used in predicting his genetic potential in their captive deer herd.
If there are contradictions about the predictability of antler size in controlled, captive situations, that does not bode well for our desire to design deer management schemes around it. In a free-ranging deer population, confounding factors such as fluctuating nutrition, sickness and fawn birth date can interfere with the expression of genes and muddy the issue considerably.
In recent years several studies have been, and continue to be, conducted to determine predictability in the wild. We will explore these studies on free-ranging populations in the next issue and see if any clarity comes from looking at this from the practitioner’s perspective at the population level.


 
At Kerr Wildlife Management Area, researchers have run selection experiments where they used the largest-antlered yearlings in one trial and the smallest antlered yearlings in another as sire bucks for the next generation of captive deer.
Using the largest-antlered yearlings each year, they successfully increased antler size, by age class, over the course of the experiment. Using the smallest yearlings as sires each year for many years, they were able to nearly breed the antlers off the bucks in that bloodline!
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2009/10/09 10:18:19
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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/09 10:14:14 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: DanesDad

Genetics are overrated. The genetics of PAs deer herd are not that much different than those of Ohio or Illinois. The real difference lies in the quality of food the deer consume and how much of a chance the bucks have to survive each hunting season. In a state like PA (before HR) we have a long rifle season (rifle being the easiest way to kill a buck) and a huge amount of hunters in the woods at the same time (keeping the deer up and moving). Pa was set up for a high turnover of bucks from year to year. It's no surprise that we didn't have as many trophy bucks per capita as Ohio. In Ohio, there is (I believe) a short shotgun season (not as much time to kill, with a weapon that has a smaller range than a rifle). Plus, you have large agricultural areas providing primo feed for the deer. Is it any real surprise that bucks tend to be larger racked there?

Genetically, you and I are almost exactly like the people of Somalia (probably something like 99.999% the same). Yet, here our live expectancy, weight, physical condition, and general health are much better. Because conditions are better here.



 
I'll drink to that. 

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RE: AR and high-grading 2009/10/09 11:14:13 (permalink)
Withdrawal of a Proposed Antler Restriction Expansion, 2009
In April 2009, DEC proposed a regulation change that would have expanded the antler restriction program to include eight additional wildlife management units (WMUs) in the northern and western Catskills.

During the required 45 day public comment period, DEC received many comments both in favor of and opposed to the proposal.

Hunters opposing the change stated that they are mostly interested in "meat, not antlers," and are concerned about decreased harvest opportunity, particularly in light of relatively low deer management permit (antlerless deer tags) availability. They also expressed frustration with a loss of freedom to select the type of buck they wish to harvest, and contend that antler point restrictions will negatively affect hunter sentiment and participation and associated economic benefits. Hunters also expressed concern that the penalties for mistakenly shooting a deer with too few antler points include a potential misdemeanor criminal charge.

Hunters supporting the antler restriction proposal cited their interest in taking older, larger deer and contended that this program will enhance deer management in New York, including economic and social benefits associated with the excitement of seeing and taking older, larger deer. They believe that antler restrictions will help create a healthier deer herd.

At the present time, DEC biologists see no specific management benefit associated with the antler restriction program and do not consider antler restrictions as necessary to improve herd condition. Deer populations throughout New York currently have healthy breeding patterns and adult sex ratios that ensure virtually all does are bred, conditions that indicate our deer herd is in good condition.

DEC believes that interest in antler restrictions is primarily an issue of hunter preference, and it is clear that hunters are divided. There is no biological urgency to implement a mandatory antler restriction program in the proposed deer management units, and hunters who wish to adopt an antler restriction policy or practice may already do so on a voluntary basis.

DEC will pursue further dialogue with hunters to promote greater awareness of the potential outcomes of antler restriction programs. Deer management and potential changes to hunting laws and regulations are serious matters, and DEC will continue to monitor the status of deer populations and the interests of stakeholders to recommend or enact changes that are in the best interests of sound game management and the ability of people to use and enjoy this important resource.
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