AR and high-grading

i'm seeing a lot of 1.5 year olds this year. Most of them are 4,5 or 6 pointers. A lot of guys would call them scrubs, but I think their racks aren't too bad for a 1.5 year old.

I think a lot of guys who see these smaller bucks are thinking the small antlers are a result of poor genetics and don't consider the fact they're looking at a young deer.

I saw a 2.5 yr old Buck last year that was a scrub 5, I saw him probably 6 times and I know for sure he was atleast 2.5 yrs old, maybe older, and may never become legal...Who knows???

I'm seeing a greater amount of legal bucks this year, than ever before. At one stand site, I've seen over 10 different bucks, and only 2 of them being non legal. Coincidentally, I see them the most, Stupidity? Or a Cruel joke on me by god?

ORIGINAL: Deadbolt401

I'm seeing a greater amount of legal bucks this year, than ever before. At one stand site, I've seen over 10 different bucks, and only 2 of them being non legal. Coincidentally, I see them the most, Stupidity? Or a Cruel joke on me by god?

 
Cruel Joke....Once season starts you only see the non-legal bucks.....

I have seen athe same spike for 3yrs not yet this yr...
last yr he was very thick based and very high...
I should have shot him 2yrs ago!!!!  LOL
 
Good luck guys..

ORIGINAL: thedrake

I think a lot of guys who see these smaller bucks are thinking the small antlers are a result of poor genetics and don't consider the fact they're looking at a young deer.

 
That's pretty much it IMO. 

Stated in another way (just young deer), those spikes were probably late born the previous year (doe fawn that came into heat in late dec. or jan.) and didn't have the "spike" fawn until later spring/early summer.  It all goes in cycles and the better the habitat, the better chance of it probably happening (doe fawn can get to breeding size before the bucks lose their antlers and stop breeding). 

ORIGINAL: S-10

Our own record book entries also show that there were more bucks making the Pennsylvania book BEFORE HR/AR than any year since.

 
 
That is very very wrong s-10.   6 of the last 10 TOP in archery have come since 2002.  Think about that and the time frame of it compared to the total years before.  Yes, there haven't been booners breaking records, but AR protects yearlings.  But you are stuck in your thoughts and there's no removing you.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.... 
 
Anyway, the youngens I've seen this year have good width, height, good number of points with short hair, short noses, pencil straight backs and stomaches.  I'm excited for next year.   
 
I still haven't seen a spike.    LONG LIVE THE SCRUBBIES.

I've watched shows on TV showing hunters on "management hunts" on ranches. These guys are not out to kill the "trophies" they're out to kill what they consider bucks with poor genetics. You'll notice they aren't killing young bucks on these hunts, they're killing 3.5+ year olds that aren't up to the ranches standards. They don't cull a buck until its old enough to show what it's capable of.

In the town I grew up in there's a guy who raises giant bucks in a fence and sells the semen to ranches. There's a buck in the fence right now with more points on its antlers than any buck I've ever seen. I'm told it was a 3 point at 1.5 years.

The folling are excerpts from an article on AR results in other states written by Tom Fogely : Mississippi hunters have had a longer period in which to analyze buck harvest figures and make up their minds about the effectiveness of point restrictions.

“The program had widespread support after the first year,” said Larry Castle, deer management coordinator for the Mississippi Dept. of Wildlife, Fisheries and Parks. “There was also a tremendous increase in 2-1/2-year-old bucks.”

Biological Backlash?

Although Castle declares his support for antler restrictions, he is quick to note that studies carried out in cooperation with Dr. Stephen Demarais of Mississippi State University show a possible biological backlash. In one study, conducted at the Sunflower Wildlife Management Area, an average decline of 19 inches of antlers in the Boone & Crockett scores of 3-1/2-year-old bucks (shot since the 4-point rule was imposed in 1995) was evident. The reason, says Castle, is that smaller antlered yearling bucks were protected because of the 4-point rule but other yearlings with larger antlers and more points were legally killed. The bigger yearlings, said Castle, are the bucks that should have been spared. In a related study using penned deer, select harvests were simulated by physically removing certain deer that, in the wild, would have been shot. Similar declines in the antler quality of older bucks were evident.



Do antler restrictions really work?

The answer is… maybe. Antler restrictions appear to improve quality at least in the short term. But many states are proceeding with a bit of hesitation. Unlike Mississippi, Arkansas and Pennsylvania, some states are first sticking their toes in the pond with experimental studies before instituting antler restrictions statewide. Georgia, New Jersey, Florida, Alabama and others are utilizing state-owned management units for point restriction research. Mississippi State University is delving into findings that older bucks in antler restriction areas are losing length and mass of their antlers. A Kentucky study is focusing on restrictions that include beam widths. Even in Arkansas, after five years of antler restrictions, some initial supporters of the concept are questioning whether the management plan is actually improving buck quality.

Antler restrictions will continue as the most contentious and controversial of deer hunting issues this season and in the years ahead. Look for variations on the minimum antler size theme that will sooner or later affect every one of us who hunts whitetails.

Can't answer why no spikes for you (maybe not many 1-1/2 deer) but drive on up and I will show you a dozen or so spikes or 3 points. Can also show you three shooter bucks and 5-6 legal but fairly small probably 2 year old 7-9 points and a couple 1-1/2 legal bucks. I'am just presenting the numbers from the PGC records and ignoring their retoric and spin.

Often wonder how much private land has to do with bucks surviving, seems at least in areas I hunt a lot more posters have gone up in the last decade, have to admit have seen more quality racks than I have in the past, but also have watched spikes chasing does during the rut and wondered about the 18 month old ones that are removed because they were carrying enough to make them legal, wouldn't that over a period of time in a heavily hunted area remove the best from the gene pool, one other observation due you think people hunt as hard as they used too, not talking the diehards but the average joe, I think that by 11am on the first day of rifle  if they can fill their doe tag they do it and I wonder how hard they hunt thereafter, I do think that there are a lot of different factors at work in producing a quality rack.

Remember guys, your not arguing with just me any longer.
This thing has been effect for a number of years now and the PGC has posted the 115 and above bucks on their website. If you look at the numbers instead of listening to them talk you will see that statewide it is not doing what they claimed. There may be some areas better than others just as there always were but on average we gave up shooting 85,000 bucks for the opportunity for one of the approx 12,000 additional bucks that are 2-1/2 years old rather than 1-1/2 years old. Now even they are getting smaller racks if you believe the research done in many other states. Not a very good trade-off in my opinion, but then I have been shooting 2-1/2 year old bucks since the sixties and they don't look too much different except maybe shorter points.

ya ol' fart.

Well, I can say this....Since AR, I have seen less deer and the same size bucks I was seeing in my area...I am not an antler or trophy hunter, I hunt because I enjoy it and I put food on the table. I have not really agread with the AR since it was even talked about being put into place. I even have a sticker on my truck that says "PA HAD DEER"....I wish it would go back to no restrictions....If people want to trophy hunt on their own property, then you manage your own bucks..If you wanna pass the 1.5yr old 6 or 7 than pass it....But I am there for meat, not antlers and never have been or never will be....