thedrake
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 12:16:28
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ORIGINAL: dpms
ORIGINAL: thedrake
Does anyone really believe adding crossguns to archery season will attract new folks to hunting? Think of it this way, how many people are out there saying: "I would like to start hunting, but only if crossbows are allowed"? The answer to that question is nobody. Nobody is out there with their fingers crossed hoping crossbows are allowed, so they can start hunting. It is absurd to think this would even bring ONE new person to our sport.
I beg to differ. I now several peers of mine that cannot wait to take thier kid archery hunting. They will be able to do it under the mentored youth program during archery but these kids do not have the strength to pull and steady a 35# vertical.
One is a 8 y/o boy and the other a 10 y/o girl. With X-bows legalized for all these kids can enjoy the fall woods and maybe harvest a deer.
You and I both know those kids aren't taking up hunting because crossbows are allowed. They would start hunting regardless. Therefore it's not crossbows that are bringing them to hunting, it's simply hunting that's attracting them. How many 8 year olds do you think are going to sit still long enough for a deer to get into 20 yards for a shot. I think this is not a good way for kids to be introduced to hunting. Why introduce them during the most difficult season where they are so much less likely to be succesfull, and so much less likely to even see a deer?
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PAFISHERMAN1981
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 12:21:43
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In 2000, my senior of High school I blew out my sholder in a football game and couldn't hunt archery with my bow so I got a crossbow. I hated it!!!!!!! No sport to that at all. This rule is going to kill archery hunting in PA. Look PA already has one million hunters. What else do they need... I say do what you have been doing and try to get out of staters to come in.... thats the money ticket.... well maybe its just me but I do not want 50 guys in my hunting area on every tree with a crossbow. I am looking for a lease in ohio and WV at least there they dont have 20 million hunters.......... Whats next - hunting with flame throwers and bazookas......
post edited by PAFISHERMAN1981 - 2008/10/27 12:23:43
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SilverKype
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 12:22:08
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I know a few good guys that shoot xbows and I know a few slimeballs, including poachers, but that's not the point anyway.. I think we all can agree that each hunting tool has its good and bad folks.
btw.. Boop is not a big supporter of archery at all. He stated that because he's the 'no deer' commissioner.
If the legistrators forced the commission on passing archery to run from Sept - Jan, I wouldn't be happy about that either, even though it would increase my opportunity at what I love to do.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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SilverKype
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 12:32:17
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pa1981
Hunter numbers are at about 890,000 now.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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dpms
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 12:33:01
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ORIGINAL: thedrake
You and I both know those kids aren't taking up hunting because crossbows are allowed. They would start hunting regardless. Therefore it's not crossbows that are bringing them to hunting, it's simply hunting that's attracting them.
Your bias is geeting the best of you. What the crossbow does is allow these kids to archery hunt earlier than having to wait till they can draw and effectively aim a vert. The earlier we can get to them the more likely they are to stay with us.
My rifle is a black rifle
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dpms
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 12:34:46
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ORIGINAL: PAFISHERMAN1981
Look PA already has one million hunters. What else do they need... Actually those numbers are plunging. We have 60,000 less archers than we did 10 years ago.
My rifle is a black rifle
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dpms
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 12:39:19
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ORIGINAL: SilverKype
If the legistrators forced the commission on passing archery to run from Sept - Jan, I wouldn't be happy about that either, even though it would increase my opportunity at what I love to do.
Don't think we are at that point either but I could see it down the road if the numbers keep dropping. Hopefully we can hold back the tide a little longer.
My rifle is a black rifle
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casts_by_fly
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 12:54:47
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I don't want to get too involved in this debate since I'm not in the state anymore but I'd like to raise a few points to anyone listening.
If I remember correctly, most all of the other states that allow concurrent crossbow hunting have shown no difference in success rates between crossbow hunters and compound/longbow hunters. There has been a slight (but not statistically different) increase in success in the SRA's, which could be atributed to higher overall success rates in the SRA's anyway. Also, rifle hunters have a higher success rate than archery hunters if I am remembering my stats correctly. So realistically any great deer slaughter because of crossbows would have to come from a huge influx of crossbow hunters.
Now those hunters can come from 3 sources- current archery hunters, current non-archery hunters, and current non hunters. Current archery hunters that switch to a crossbow will not add hunter numbers. Current non archery hunters will be adding money to the coffers by buying archery tags now (and potentially doe tags) and will be filling their tags (at lower success rates) with a cross bow rather than a rifle. Finally, non hunters that buy a license just to hunt with a crossbow (however few they are) will be adding kills that weren't there before, but will be boosting hunter numbers and income. The way I see it, deer numbers aren't going to suffer just because crossbows are allowed. There should be a fair benefit though in increasing participation at all levels. What would be the difference if we added 50,000 upright bow hunters instead? About the same increase in kill levels. Would the currently complaining archers still be complaining about killing too many deer if suddenly 50,000 more upright archers joined the ranks? I don't think they would.
Second, much of the argument against crossbows is that a crossbow season will dusturb deer more. I don't see that it will, especially compared to the rifle and shotgun hunting that is going on around them. Crossbow archers have to be just as quiet and stealthy as upright archers. 'Touching one off' doesn't quite have the same connotation or disturbance with a crossbow as it does a rifle or front stuffer.
Lastly, what does it matter what someone's motives for getting into the woods are? If I still lived in PA, I would definitely take advantage of the early muzzle loader season. Why? I like being in the woods and I like harvesting deer. I shot archery and rifle already. Early muzzle loader would give me another tool in the box. The same holds true for crossbow. If I didn't already archery hunt for one reason or another, I'd probably try crossbow hunting. It is just another tool in the bow.
Thanks
Rick
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thedrake
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 13:35:53
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ORIGINAL: dpms
ORIGINAL: thedrake
You and I both know those kids aren't taking up hunting because crossbows are allowed. They would start hunting regardless. Therefore it's not crossbows that are bringing them to hunting, it's simply hunting that's attracting them.
Your bias is geeting the best of you. What the crossbow does is allow these kids to archery hunt earlier than having to wait till they can draw and effectively aim a vert.
The earlier we can get to them the more likely they are to stay with us.
Yes, perhaps kids could start archery hunting sooner, but it does not start them hunting any sooner. Like I said before, archery season is a difficult time to harvest deer. Do you really feel that a season that is tough for experienced hunters, will allow an 8 year old much success? I dont think so. A child that sets in the woods several saturdays in a row without killing a deer or seeing many of them, is not one that's any more likely to continue hunting. Whatever happened to taking kids small game hunting that time of year, anyway? When I was a kid, I loved small game hunting, and had no interest in archery hunting. When you're that age you don't want to go out an set all day without any action, you want to shoot something. When I have children, I sure as heck wouldn't start them out deer hunting. They'll be shooting squirrels, not setting for days at a time without getting a shot.
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dpms
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 14:15:33
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ORIGINAL: thedrake
Whatever happened to taking kids small game hunting that time of year, anyway? When I was a kid, I loved small game hunting, and had no interest in archery hunting. When you're that age you don't want to go out an set all day without any action, you want to shoot something. When I have children, I sure as heck wouldn't start them out deer hunting. They'll be shooting squirrels, not setting for days at a time without getting a shot.
With our mentored squirrel program they can do just that before 12. And if they are archery hunting with a crossbow for deer than can now take shots at those pesky squirrels too if this thing passes. Anyway, allowing our kids to hunt with a responsible adult for any game species is a plus for all of us. A crossbow is just another tool in the shed.
My rifle is a black rifle
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bingsbaits
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 14:50:31
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If the kid is archery hunting deer with a crossgun, wouldn't he have to putr on his orange vest and hat before shooting at the squirrels????You try to sugar coat it...
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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dpms
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 14:58:11
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Yes they would to be legal. Therefore, wear your orange from the get go and enjoy the day. 
My rifle is a black rifle
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chicken27
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 17:38:45
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I have a ten year old daughter that is about 4 foot 10 inches tall.I bought her a new remington sps 700 243 youth model.This thing fells like it don't weigh nothing to me but she has a hard time holding it up.I never really held a crossgun not sure how heavy they are but defintly know there heavy then this gun.With that been said how could i kid hold up a crossgun to make a good clean shot?
post edited by chicken27 - 2008/10/27 17:39:46
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Dr. Trout
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 19:29:01
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gheeezzzzzzzzzz...
where has all this been. this crossbow thing has been in the works for years....
some of my thoughts
#1.. Boop is no way near a sportsman and could care less about those that are...... he NEVER should have become a member of the BOC... he is pushing for DCNR to take control so they can use our SGL for non-hunting recreational use.... totally disagrees with everything about the PGC.. have talked and written to him.. and NO ONE will change my opinion of him... period.............
#2.. There are already guys in archery season shooting at deer with compounds..that should never be allowed to do so... many have never taken 20-30 trips up and down a tree to get their sites set for shooting from an elevated stand....
they hit near the bull's eye almost every time from the ground and shot 4 times from a tree stand so they are ----NOW ALL SET to go shoot a deer from a tree stand....
here's a challenge...
ask some of your archery buddies how they determine how high they are in a tree ???
I have... and many say they are just using an educated guess.... or they go as high as the tree will allow and stop....
#3.... anyone trying a crossbow at a range of some type will soon see it is not any better than most of today's compound when it comes to distance... and some compounds are better. than the average crossbow..
#4.. has everyone read the post or heard about the guy on another board who used his compound to kill a deer at 80 yards.. nice guy huh ?????
so why the worry about crossbows when there are guys like this out there...a crossbow is not going to stop a deer at 80 yards...It takes all kinds and there ARE all kinds in our sport today...
#5.. crossbow WILL ADD some new hunters
#6.. crossbows will not shorten the season... they have not made that much of an impact in other states
that's jwas just a UBP talking point...and that's all it was.... .. alot of talk with not back-up support ... the facts showed differently..
#7...With a 5 to 2 vote in October ...get use to the idea of crossbows in archery season... It's taken years for us that want to see their addition to get to this point by showing our support... and the stats from other states...and the UBP doing their thing to keep it from happening.. it did not work for them... they (crossbows) are here to stay for archery season.
GET OVER IT and enjoy your hunting while you can.........
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Dr. Trout
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 19:33:09
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YES... crossbows can be heavy... HEAVY to the front... they are not easy to hold steady..
I think a youngster would have a tough time holding one still
but not sure...
I know they could not hold the one I have tried shooting several times...
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jlh42581
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 20:07:23
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I have that same feeling, doesnt matter how much we complain. The way I look at it is I hunt like a **** fool, im out there many many evenings in archery and im finding it hard to see deer. Give it one year, the first year everyone will buy one, then they see the deer still arent there no matter what season it is anymore and they will ebay them, or hang it in the closet. I think too, it will put people in the woods who wont hunt from a stand. Therefore those will be likely to get up and move, just like rifle hunters, jumping deer we otherwise wouldnt see. Maybe thats the key, no one hunting rabbits, birds, squirels like they used to. Imagine how many deer we seen just ten years ago due to small game hunters moving. I bet now, due to the deer population and so many guys quitting, were not just losing deer hunters but hunters of other things too. Could be good for us, i have no idea, too early to say. Most archery hunters i know want nothing to do with a cross bow.
post edited by jlh42581 - 2008/10/27 20:13:21
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bingsbaits
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/27 20:24:13
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Mabee they can have a first week like I did. 6 days on stand morning and evening. Saw 1 deer in the morning in the dark....Will take alot more than being able to use a crossgun to keep 8-12 year olds interested..
A little contradicting Dms and DR trout. Dp says one reason it will be good for the sport is to get 8-12 year old kids involved..Dr. you admit the kids couldn't shoulder the weapon for an ethical shot..So which is it ??
Other than you couple fellas that carry the PGC bible ,none of the people I hunt with or have talked to at the archery shop are in favor of this at all..
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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dpms
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/28 07:32:14
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ORIGINAL: bingsbaits
A little contradicting Dms and DR trout. Dp says one reason it will be good for the sport is to get 8-12 year old kids involved..Dr. you admit the kids couldn't shoulder the weapon for an ethical shot..So which is it ??
Offhand, a crossbow would be difficult to hold steady for a youngster or even an oldster. Heck, I have a difficult time holding onme steady offhand. Obviously with a crossbow, one has the ability to use a rest and with a junior I would always try to. Whether it be a shooting sticks, tree branch or treestand with a rail. That is one of the advantages of using one. One that can not be attained with a vertical bow. Mind you, a rest may add a couple yards to your effective range. With me it improved from 30 with my compound to 40 with my crossbow. Shooting my crossbow offhand my effective range is still 30 yards.
post edited by dpms - 2008/10/28 07:34:45
My rifle is a black rifle
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jlh42581
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/28 07:48:45
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ORIGINAL: bingsbaits
Mabee they can have a first week like I did. 6 days on stand morning and evening. Saw 1 deer in the morning in the dark....Will take alot more than being able to use a crossgun to keep 8-12 year olds interested..
A little contradicting Dms and DR trout. Dp says one reason it will be good for the sport is to get 8-12 year old kids involved..Dr. you admit the kids couldn't shoulder the weapon for an ethical shot..So which is it ??
Other than you couple fellas that carry the PGC bible ,none of the people I hunt with or have talked to at the archery shop are in favor of this at all..
15 trips in all so far... 5 deer total seen!On TWO of the trips.
post edited by jlh42581 - 2008/10/28 07:49:08
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chicken27
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/28 07:59:18
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The most i ever saw was 16 one night on stand.I saw 4 small 8 points and 12 doe of course it's on posted property and the all property that joins it is also posted.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/28 08:09:37
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question for you guys hunting from tree stands and not seeing deer...
How far can you easily see in all 4 directions ???
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jlh42581
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/28 12:31:56
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Some stands 100 yrds, some stands 20. Yes i know there are prob deer that i dont see.
post edited by jlh42581 - 2008/10/28 12:32:14
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KISHWAA
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/28 14:00:31
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i used a crossbow in ohio hunting with my buddy thats all he uses is crossbows and muzzleloaders it was a great time using a crossbow
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S-10
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/28 15:36:31
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Ohio 2007 season= 36,347 killed with bow---42,292 killed with crossbow It's interesting that Silver and others who blasted me in the beginning over AR/HR are now complaining that crossbows will lead to fewer deer and shorter seasons and there are already too few deer. Also interesting that Doc and DPMS say they are needed to get youngsters hunting. The only thing needed to keep the youngsters interested in hunting is for them to be able to see some deer. Look at how many just on this site either already have or are looking at leases because the PGC has destroyed the deer hunting on public lands. As the few who can afford it and have the desire, buy up leases the rest will keep on dropping out due to lack of success on public land. Allowing crossbows just puts a bit more money in the PGC coffers short term and does nothing to keep more people in hunting in the long term. Success in anything breeds interest, and stories and proof of success increases participants. Lack of success does just the opposite. Why spend $400 for a crossbow to watch the leaves fall? Now Doc can come on with the PGC spin that hunting is more than deer and more than the kill. 
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SilverKype
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/28 16:02:18
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I've got and have had just as many deer as you S-10. I don't mind less deer. I do mind people putting on drives and making the less deer I hunt completely noctural. It doesn't appear to me, you've done anything over the years to fix your "less deer" issue, and that's why I always pick on people who complain about it and do nothing.
As I said before, if I find that the less deer are being driven consistently by xbowers with a rifle mentality, I won't hestitate for a second to get on a lease. Problem solved, temporarily.
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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thedrake
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/28 17:01:42
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I'm still confused why anyone would think the addition of crossguns would bring newcomers to hunting. Can anyone explain it to me?
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/28 17:18:30
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ORIGINAL: thedrake
I'm still confused why anyone would think the addition of crossguns would bring newcomers to hunting. Can anyone explain it to me?
I also doubt it will bring in many new hunters. I understand I represent a small area but, new hunter hunter recruitment in Allegheny Co. seems to be minimal. On the other hand, it is not uncommon for me to see just as many crossgun hunters as archery hunters out hunting on a given day during archery season. I attribute most of the ones I see using crossguns to be sellouts; people who used to hunt with bows. Seems like anything the PGC can do to make it easier and less rewarding to harvest a deer is on the agenda. Like everything else government related it will come down to monetary interests, and they think hunter recruitment will increase, therefore funds will increase. My take on the crossbow issue is that they already have a season; general firearms season. They are not archery equipment and they do not belong in the archery season. Allowing them to be used statewide in archery is no different than allowing any single shot firearm to be used. IMO it takes away quite a bit of what I always thought bowhunting was.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/28 18:57:50
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well here's my spin.... as predicted ----- If you are hunting an area and not seeing deer.... MOVE TO ANOTHER SPOT Believe it or not there is a reason you are not seeing deer... they are not there in the first place.. they are somewhere else.. how's that for spin on a more serious note... I love to challenge guys who are not seeing deer..... I have met several and traveled to the area they hunt .. after about 30 minutes I can usually tell them why they are not seeing deer and so far it has been the same reason... there ain't no food there anymore.... it's all been eaten up and none is replacing it.... and it's too open... no understory (security) I asked above about how far you can see in the woods where you hunt.... other than a clearing or field good habitat should not allow a deer hunter to see 100 yards... remember if you can see a hundred yards so can a deer and more easily than you can.... and 9 times out of 10 a deer is not going to come closer to see what that movement or smell was.... especiallyif it is that open to see that far... My favorite spots (when I am serious about a harvest)... allow me to see no further than maybe 50 yards at best and that's in rifle season..... more like 30-35 yards.. and I can not remember the last year I did not harvest a deer the first day of the season... and I have not harvested a deer on private property for many moons.... SGL and state forest.... LOTS OF DEER !!!
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2008/10/28 19:10:44
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S-10
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/28 19:21:13
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ORIGINAL: SilverKype
To put an already decimated central PA deer herd at risk is irresponsible.
/quote]
Based on this and your deciding to buy into a lease to get some decent hunting makes me believe your changing your attitude of the PGC. Used to be it was hard for me to tell you and Doc apart. BTY I agree that x-bows is a bad idea and won't increase hunters for more than a couple years.
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S-10
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RE: X-Bows given preliminary approval
2008/10/28 19:32:22
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Doc== I have killed aprox 70 bucks of which over half were taken with the bow. I averaged passing 9-10 for every one I killed before AR/HR. If I remember correctly you have taken 7or8. I know feed, I know where to hunt, I hunt in an area approx 25sq mi and scout all the time. I will kill a buck this year because I will hunt until I do. What do you tell the 90% of the hunters who don't have the time, or the skill, or the access to private land. Not everyone is content to shoot a doe as you are. How many bucks have you taken since hr/ar.
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