Helpful ReplyWell how about the new Sat. opener ? 
DarDys
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 12:38:59
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dpms
psu_fish
Funny you mention genetics....with the 3-up rule, PGC is protecting more and more scrub bucks from being harvested, we have seen more and more 6-pts that aren't legal in 2D.
That is by design as those "scrubs" are just young bucks that will be older and have more antler the following year. It is a very, very rare 3.5 y/o buck in this state that doesn't meet AR minimums.
Bull. No brow tines remains no brow tines.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 12:43:33
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I posted my property, along my north boundary line, because I didn't want the deer driven from my property, onto property heavily infested with tree stands and junior hunters, many of which were from the same family. I posted my property "because" I did not want bothered. If I permitted hunting, it was by invitation. No longer is the property posted "no hunting" but now posted "no trespassing" and the new owner doesn't hunt. It was always a good feeling to have access to land for hunting/fishing and I always stayed away from posting. Until I moved to the most recent location and even then, not until the past few years. I too enjoyed watching 10, 15, 20, deer sometimes feeding feet from my back deck. (a/k/a; my favorite deer stand) Heaven, I once thought.... until the arrival of the predators. Now you folks can believe what you will, but the predators will find your happy hunting grounds too. Just for the record, this predator is not on four legs or fly on wing. These predators arrive by vehicle, regardless of owning or paying someone with a van to drive them..... they will be coming to an area near you..... soon. Careful of which you brag.... "No Spotburning". P.S. You people beeching about us beeching, does that constitute an oxymoron style of response? Keep, your eyes closed and, clicking your heels.... there's no place like my happy hunting grounds.... and won't be for long. The predators hear.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2019/12/17 12:55:12
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 12:45:42
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dpms
psu_fish
Funny you mention genetics....with the 3-up rule, PGC is protecting more and more scrub bucks from being harvested, we have seen more and more 6-pts that aren't legal in 2D.
That is by design as those "scrubs" are just young bucks that will be older and have more antler the following year. It is a very, very rare 3.5 y/o buck in this state that doesn't meet AR minimums.
Does this make them taste better or just look better in pictures and record books?
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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dpms
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 13:29:37
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DarDys
Bull.
No brow tines remains no brow tines.
As I said, it is a very, very rare 3.5 y/o buck in this state that doesn't meet AR minimums. A 1.5 year old buck without brow tines is very likely to grow at least one, if not two the following year. Once a buck gets to 3.5, if they do not have brow tines they likely will not get them but will develop enough up top on one antler to be legal and may very well develop "trash" down low that is over an inch.
My rifle is a black rifle
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anzomcik
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 13:29:57
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☄ Helpfulby CAPTAIN HOOK 2019/12/17 16:28:48
CAPTAIN HOOK
Nothing Anz ,that's their right ...just saying when one says move to where the deer are in higher numbers to improve your hunting odds it just isn't that simple with miles of posted property....as a matter of fact it's usually impossible . So that answer doesn't work most times.
I guess I've been stating the wrong answers or questions here... I apologize ....but why is hunting so good in your areas and not as good in other areas like mine ? You seem to posts all is really good in your hunting areas , nice size bucks around , good number of kills every year, your satisfied with PGC changes, but many other hunters seem to struggle just seeing deer especially bucks. What's the secret ? or what's wrong here ?
I'm not trying to be a smart azz either ....I'm just curious .
Ill the be first guy to say I do not have all the answers, no one will. I have never been to your area, and nothing is set in stone. But i recall in a previous post i believe you mentioned nothing has changed in 30 years in that area (somthing to that effect). Early on at Dads, the woods had been logged hard. It was thick with prickers, scrubby trees. You couldnt see 50 yards. The deer were crawling through it like rats. As time went on beach brush took over. then the beach started choking each other out and we have a 25' tall canopy. Over that 10-15 years the deer hunting changed. The deer loved the thickets, food and cover. As that went away so it seemed the numbers of deer did to, not to the point we didnt see any but it was a different average. The woods was starting its journey to back maturity. Those early years I sucked at hunting, both archery and rifle (i still think i suck at rifle). I iddnt have a clue about anything but i was out having fun, i would occasionally shoot a buck, it wasnt a passion at that time. I had college and dirtbikes keeping me busy. I recall one opening day of rifle seeing 57 deer, several legal bucks but just couldnt get it done. The very next year I seen a 1 tail when i was walking out, sitting in the exact same stand as the previous year. I never put much thought into it at the time, it was just the way it was to me. several years ago it hit us, the woods needs to be thicker. So we did some cutting, alot of the trees had little value, fire cherry, yellow birch, beach... cut some let them lay, cut some and drug out for fire wood. Dad loves cutting wood so it was a double benefit. We have become better at the projects and it helps with deer, not a magic. Leasing most of the fields to a local crop farmer helps. One mostly over looked for us, is the impact of what neighboring land owners are doing. Deer do not know property lines, it would be hard to own enough land to house a deer its entire life. I tried to as quickly as possible show progression in just 18 years i have seen. couple points on bucks in rifle and why i think i suck at rifle hunting. I see soooo many more legal bucks in archery than rifle. It has gotten so skewed for me that a rifle buck holds a higher degree of difficulty. I hate using the term "luck" in hunting, obviously there is an element to it in every hunting trip. I try to be calculated, and relying on "luck" can lead you down a path to not caring about any element you have control over. But rifle season seems to be more about luck, this is speaking for myself. We did shot a nice legal buck on dads this year in rifle, if you would have asked me based off camera photos, i would have put lower odds on it actually happeneing. In fact all three bucks off of dads i had ZERO photos of ever. It seems at dads most legal bucks disapear as november wears on. I do not know where they go, but they are mostly not there. Yes some get bumped around, but the bucks i had sept-nov are mostly not hitting cameras anymore, i do understand cameras are not the final word on whats there or not. I have theories but no way to prove. I use to think rifle hunting was easy from my early experiences, see it, shoot it... I will never buck shame anyone, or any means of take. But i hold a firm respect for the guys who can consistently get it done only in rifle, it is one area i struggle with. It might be those 2.5 yo and older bucks have the experience to know when to hole up until it gets quite again, not sure. Those older bucks are masters of their environments, Im sure we all have watched young does and 1.5 year old bucks just walk out into a field to feed, while mom hangs back in the safety of the cover. Only to creep out several minutes later. she knows whats up, the dangers involved. I do not think doe are any dumber than bucks, but their behavior is different. This different, along with being less buck than doe, makes it appear there are no good bucks. I think they are there, just not where we are looking. These freaking things that i love so much drive me crazy thinking about them
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dpms
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 13:32:44
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BeenThereDoneThat.
Does this make them taste better or just look better in pictures and record books?
Some would argue a larger rack looks better and most would say a older buck tastes worse. Of course, ARs were implemented for neither.
post edited by dpms - 2019/12/17 13:48:24
My rifle is a black rifle
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Guest
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 13:38:26
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BeenThereDoneThat.
Just for the record, this predator is not on four legs or fly on wing. These predators arrive by vehicle, regardless of owning or paying someone with a van to drive them..... they will be coming to an area near you..... soon.
No predators like that to speak of in my area John, but there is a related species in the Pittsburgh area. I hunted, along with a handful of others, for about a decade on 800 acres in the Butler County portion of 2B. Began hunting there in 2002, right at the start of AR/HR. About 400 of that was woods, and most of it small woodlots of 10-75 acres in size. Perfect for us during archery season, with plenty of room for everybody and enough places to hunt. Seems that everyone around thought when AR caused the decimation of deer populations in the more traditional hunting areas that there was, and always would be, a deer behind every third tree in the 2B special regs area, especially once you got out of Allegheny County. Gun season was an endless parade of guys from neighboring properties and "out of towners" putting on drives through this clearly and well posted property, and also hunting on it. Landowners would often call the state police and PGC, to no avail. They'd talk to the other landowners who hosted and participated in these drives to no avail. Shooters would wait on the other side of the property boundaries and sling lead at every deer coming off that property. Pressure on and around other parts of that 800 acres increased exponentially with nearly unlimited doe tags. The deer population in a couple square mile area went downhill fast. The other guys and I that hunted it agreed for several years to not shoot any does off of the property, but it was like pizzing in the wind. It all came to an end because one of those predators who snuck onto the property to drive deer off was slinging lead at does running through a field between the two houses owned by the landowners' sons. There was a real nice lake too, that a friend of the landowners would stock with trout every year, and the predators ruined that as well by sneaking in there and arguing with the landowners. It was the best duck hunting spot I've ever been on in my life, and probably ever will be in Western PA. No more hunting or fishing for anybody, except for the one son of the landowners and his father in law. Still talk to them, and they had to take some extreme measures to keep the deer drivers and trespassers off of their property in gun season. I'd give my left testicle to be able to hunt ducks on their lake again, or fish for bass with my kids. Forget the deer. It was an absolute paradise, ruined by the 2B predators.
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 13:54:08
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☄ Helpfulby CAPTAIN HOOK 2019/12/17 17:18:55
Gene.... so why the need for ARs. I see buck but never saw one meeting ARs in the past 11 years of hunting. Yet the buck I did see, were taken by junior hunters. The playing field is not level by any means. Before ARs, older heavier racked deer existed for those hunters willing to "relocate" and hunt as may be needed. Yet before ARs those of us who didn't desire record book racks, but have pride in taking a buck, had far better chance of succeeding. Looks to me, as if the record bookers, fear they might have to actually hunt to enter the record books they highly seek while we who just want to take a buck have to swallow our pride and shoot the doe? Seriously, what was wrong with the way deer hunting was, before ARs. What is the reason for such an unlevel playing field?? 3-up for "everybody" or trash the stupid rule.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2019/12/17 14:19:42
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 14:25:51
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😲rsquared you'd... huh, uhhhh, ummm....
Remind me to never quote you by saying "I feel your pain". ehhhh nope, not ever, thank you very much as in "OUCH". Butttt I "understand" what you're saying.😋
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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dpms
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 14:51:20
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BeenThereDoneThat.
Gene.... so why the need for ARs. I see buck but never saw one meeting ARs in the past 11 years of hunting. Yet the buck I did see, were taken by junior hunters.
Before ARs, older heavier racked deer existed for those hunters willing to "relocate" and hunt as may be needed.
Yet before ARs those of us who didn't desire record book racks, but have pride in taking a buck, had far better chance of succeeding.
That has been answered before. To establish a more balanced age structure to our deer herd. You also seem to be fixated on the large antler thing. Larger antlers are often atop older deer, but that is not why ARs were implemented.
My rifle is a black rifle
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Guest
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 14:55:11
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BeenThereDoneThat.
😲rsquared you'd... huh, uhhhh, ummm....
Remind me to never quote you by saying "I feel your pain". ehhhh nope, not ever, thank you very much as in "OUCH". Butttt I "understand" what you're saying.😋
It was that good. At certain times I wouldn't even have to put out dekes or use a call. Mallards would just pile in to the same spot at shooting time. Quick hunts, but almost always had a chance to get my 4 mallards in 15 minutes. One small flock would come, have just enough time to retrieve 'em, and then another small flock would come. Never did get my 4 mallard limit, but should have many times. Left with 3 plenty of times.
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DarDys
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 15:18:34
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dpms
DarDys
Bull.
No brow tines remains no brow tines.
As I said, it is a very, very rare 3.5 y/o buck in this state that doesn't meet AR minimums. A 1.5 year old buck without brow tines is very likely to grow at least one, if not two the following year. Once a buck gets to 3.5, if they do not have brow tines they likely will not get them but will develop enough up top on one antler to be legal and may very well develop "trash" down low that is over an inch.
Bull again.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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dpms
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 15:30:46
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☄ Helpfulby bingsbaits 2019/12/17 15:35:01
DarDys
Bull again.
You can call bull all you want but that doesn't change reality. The more I hear people discussing ARs, the more I am convinced that many people have seen very few 3.5 year old or older bucks but they claim to know everything about them. It is a very rare 3.5 y/o or older buck, even in the worst habitat that doesn't meet our minimums.
post edited by dpms - 2019/12/17 15:53:57
My rifle is a black rifle
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bingsbaits
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 15:49:46
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Guess we'll have to blame the low numbers on the hunters. That's who your beef is with.. PGC doesn't shoot deer.. Used to be one and done.. But hunters got greedy and wanted 2.. Now some fellas are able to get a pile of doe tags....
I too have lost hundreds upon hundreds of acres I used to hunt to the posters.. Yes, it sucks..But I moved on and found other places to hunt. I do not hunt my 60 acres, Haven't killed a deer here since I was a kid. It is a sanctuary from the surrounding amish farms..My property line is lined with high houses on all but one side. If you move those deer they are dead. My yankee neighbors whose land I hunt on have permission to hunt the farm..
I have no great need to kill deer anymore..I can afford beef which is probably cheaper by the pound if you add it all up. I do enjoy hunting mature bucks...Must not be a very good hunter though can only seem to connect about every 5 years or so...and I use the hell out of my atv..
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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DarDys
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 16:02:07
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Look dpms, you seem like a nice guy, but don’t insult me.
When you kill 95 PA whitetails, then you can tell me what I’ve seen and not seen. Until then, bull.
AR is not and has never been an issue for me. I’ve never had to pass on a deer due to AR. Of all the bucks I shot before AR, there was only one spike (it was during my college years and I had to shoot and scoot back to school) and over 80% would be AR legal, although not required. To me, antlers made the deer legal, not made the deer. I’ll suspect that with the exception of the time constrained spike, they all could have been AR legal since it seemed that I always shot the smallest buck I would see that season.
None of the bucks I’ve shot since AR are any bigger, if as big as those shot before AR. I have 6 8-points that are 17” or bigger (all before AR). All of those were mountain deer, so all were over 3.5. In other words, I’ve seen plenty.
Where I hunt now, I’ve seen plenty that are 3.5 that don’t have brow tines. Never have, never will. These are the ones guys are grousing about passing on.
My only AR beef is that it promoted HR to the point that herd densities are well below needing hunters to control them.
I’m happy you are having great success, just don’t judge those of us who see a far different picture, especially when you have no idea the skill and experience level you are dealing with.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 16:05:35
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☄ Helpfulby CAPTAIN HOOK 2019/12/17 17:13:30
dpms
BeenThereDoneThat.
Gene.... so why the need for ARs. I see buck but never saw one meeting ARs in the past 11 years of hunting. Yet the buck I did see, were taken by junior hunters.
Before ARs, older heavier racked deer existed for those hunters willing to "relocate" and hunt as may be needed.
Yet before ARs those of us who didn't desire record book racks, but have pride in taking a buck, had far better chance of succeeding.
That has been answered before. To establish a more balanced age structure to our deer herd. You also seem to be fixated on the large antler thing. Larger antlers are often atop older deer, but that is not why ARs were implemented.
I'm "fixated" on large antlers because we were told by Gary Alt himself at, not one but many, meetings conducted by him.... that's what we could expect. When the response from the hunters came "ya can't eat the horns" Alt responded, meat eaters can shoot the doe. Thus "A trophy behind every tree" was born, and the record book hunters ate every word, as Alt told them what they wanted to hear. I'd say we knew then, what we see now and look where Alt is, didn't even stick around to see his engineered project through. Yeah I know... he had to leave PA. [wink, wink]. So now that the "The trophy behind every tree" has failed, let's change the reason for ARs to "a more balanced age structure"??? So, does a more balanced age structure make for tastier venison or more chance for a trophy "in" the record books? I'm not trying to take record book trophy opportunities away from anyone. I'm just asking for a fair set of rules allowing everybody a chance at taking what they themselves, see as a trophy. Everybody, as in the older generation, who cannot navigate and relocate. As in those who cannot or do not want to spend money on ATVs in order, to find a legal buck as stipulated by ARs. All I want, if I have to move, relocate, spend money and meet all the other suggestions for finding deer is..... make it worth my while, give me the opportunity I had before ARs. I have my pride too. Truely, is that too much to ask? BTW. When it was discussed, ARs would substanially reduce deer numbers in some areas while other areas become over populated, Alt stated "that's part of the plan, cause the predator to move to the prey". Isn't that the same suggestion made by several members of this board. Learn to adapt, relocate, find the deer? I still say Alt's master plan was to (also) benefit Elk hunting in PA. but I also feel he knew increased doe tag sales would increase drastically and produce more income. Hunters want to fill those "antlerless" tags, they merely need to relocate before finding the deer and they're coming soon, to a happy hunting ground, near you.
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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DarDys
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 16:20:58
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bingsbaits
Guess we'll have to blame the low numbers on the hunters. That's who your beef is with.. PGC doesn't shoot deer.. Used to be one and done.. But hunters got greedy and wanted 2.. Now some fellas are able to get a pile of doe tags....
I too have lost hundreds upon hundreds of acres I used to hunt to the posters.. Yes, it sucks..But I moved on and found other places to hunt. I do not hunt my 60 acres, Haven't killed a deer here since I was a kid. It is a sanctuary from the surrounding amish farms..My property line is lined with high houses on all but one side. If you move those deer they are dead. My yankee neighbors whose land I hunt on have permission to hunt the farm..
I have no great need to kill deer anymore..I can afford beef which is probably cheaper by the pound if you add it all up. I do enjoy hunting mature bucks...Must not be a very good hunter though can only seem to connect about every 5 years or so...and I use the hell out of my atv..
John, Of course it was the hunters that killed them. There is no debate about that. But they did so with the blessing and trust in the PGC that told them it needed to be done and not only would there be no harm, but it would increase buck size too. Back then, the information was as readily available and hunters believed what the PGC was selling (which at first was gaining revenue and then to set up Alt to take over the joint agency by bolstering his resume). I’m glad you are happy with taking a nice buck every 5 years. That’s great for you. But for those instant gratification crowd, that isn’t going to cut it and they will find something else to do. That means fewer hunters and the eventual crash of funding for the PGC. From there it will be absorbed and then see what happens. If you aren’t a member of SCI, become one. Their monthly newsletter is chock full of how states are trampling on the rights of hunters because they are such a minority compared to the rest of the agency that swallowed them up.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 17:10:18
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Nice honest reply Anzo made a good a read . * Note ....that ATV comment was just a ball buster comment I tossed out ...nothing more ...no bad intentions .....wish I had one to use ...but I got a son 38 who's strong enough to help dad ! Plus it's not my land to use one. AR's still suck ! Any of you guys age deer / teeth ? Had a guy at work that was super good at it ...I'm waiting on his replies on aging our local deer in the past. dpms
You can call bull all you want but that doesn't change reality. The more I hear people discussing ARs, the more I am convinced that many people have seen very few 3.5 year old or older bucks but they claim to know everything about them. It is a very rare 3.5 y/o or older buck, even in the worst habitat that doesn't meet our minimums.
I've never seen Bigfoot yet .....and very few 3.5 year old Pa. dead bucks ! Next thing rarer...... is all those 200lb. plus deer !
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bingsbaits
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 19:41:40
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Came off a little strong.. My bad.. Yes the deer hunting has changed a lot over the last 50 years.. There were too many deer back then. Alt tried to change that and he did..Could they cut down on the doe tags and let the herd recover in some areas, probably. Would sure help if the hunters would actually report their kills so we wouldn't have to guesstimate the numbers....Guess I'm like a politician, if it helps me I'm all for it..AR...
Here in amish country we have way more tags than we do deer. They absolutely hammer them here and is the biggest reason the land around here gets posted. but once posted most all are kept out..I guess my perspective is a little tainted as I have access to probably 1000 acres around me I can hunt on...
I too miss the days of seeing 100 deer on the first day. But I'm willing to trade the numbers for a better chance at a mature whitetail..
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 20:11:45
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I hear you on the Amish thing...I'm close to Amish country and hammer they do ..game and fish ! Most are not welcome where I'm hunting also. They sure love the guns for killing animals ,but they won't defend our country's freedom rights during wars ...religious beliefs my azz !
One day I was hunting Elk county Owl's Nest area (70's) many moons ago ...first day of buck season ...counted 44 deer in one herd running across an open field ...scoped and counted all and thought one was a small rack buck.... not sure so I couldn't shoot he was right in the middle of that mess ....what a sight to see !
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 20:55:44
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ooooops wrong button.. 🙈 sorry.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2019/12/17 21:02:56
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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crappiefisher
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 22:36:16
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Who gets the $$ from Doe tags, county or G.C ?
Thanks,
crappy
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pheasant tail 2
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/17 23:43:00
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I won't jump into this one, no winners here. There are truths on both sides the this thread. If given the chance to go back in a "deer hunting time machine" it'd be Southwestern Washington County in the mid-90's. I say this as someone who I hunted the lovely hills of Potter County in the 70's & 80's. No, I didn't move on because of the "50 does and a spike" myth, that my friends is nothing more than wives tale. There were good bucks in the big woods back in those days.
I still grind it out year in and year out on SGL's and enjoy everyday. Deer sightings are fewer these days as are hunter sightings. Hunting is a dying pastime. The casual hunter is mostly a thing of the past and I can't tell the last time I saw an adult with a child.This season I saw ONE hunter in 8 full days of rifle hunting on SGLs. Granted I don't go out looking for hunters, cruise the roads, parking areas, etc. Would I prefer to see a few more deer each day? Yes.
PT2
My .02 cents
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Big Tuna
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/18 03:25:47
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☄ Helpfulby CAPTAIN HOOK 2019/12/18 12:13:59
I heard a 1400 shots the first day....No wonder I'm not seeing many anymore....lol I drove by and area past Pittsburgh the other day ....late afternoon...mine you two days after gun season and stop counting after 60 deer.....still plenty of deer....just not were I hunt...lol. PGC should live trap and relocate....lol. It's a shame a great majority will get spattered on the roads.
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dpms
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/18 07:42:23
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DarDys
Look dpms, you seem like a nice guy, but don’t insult me. Wasn't meant as an insult. Just telling it like it is. It is a very, very rare 3.5 y/o or older buck in Pa that doesn't meet our AR minimums. None of the bucks I’ve shot since AR are any bigger, if as big as those shot before AR. I have 6 8-points that are 17” or bigger (all before AR). All of those were mountain deer, so all were over 3.5. In other words, I’ve seen plenty. The discussion isn't about if bucks are bigger now and what you shot pre or post. The discussion is whether AR has caused genetically inferior bucks and whether they are tons of old deer running around that don't meet AR minimums. Where I hunt now, I’ve seen plenty that are 3.5 that don’t have brow tines. Never have, never will. These are the ones guys are grousing about passing on. If they truly were 3.5 or older, and didn't have brow tines, it is highly likely that they would have still met AR minimums. You seem to be fixated on brow tines for some reason. I have shot quite a few AR legal bucks without brow tines. I’m happy you are having great success, just don’t judge those of us who see a far different picture, especially when you have no idea the skill and experience level you are dealing with.
Again, not judging skill levels. Just questioning how many of these bucks are truly older deer that everyone claims to be seeing that are not AR legal but 3.5 or older. it is very unlikely. What I do question is the ability to actually age deer on the hoof accurately.
My rifle is a black rifle
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dpms
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/18 07:52:00
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BeenThereDoneThat.
I'm "fixated" on large antlers because we were told by Gary Alt himself at, not one but many, meetings conducted by him.... that's what we could expect.
When the response from the hunters came "ya can't eat the horns" Alt responded, meat eaters can shoot the doe. Thus "A trophy behind every tree" was born, and the record book hunters ate every word, as Alt told them what they wanted to hear.
I'd say we knew then, what we see now and look where Alt is, didn't even stick around to see his engineered project through. Yeah I know... he had to leave PA. [wink, wink].
So now that the "The trophy behind every tree" has failed, let's change the reason for ARs to "a more balanced age structure"??? So, does a more balanced age structure make for tastier venison or more chance for a trophy "in" the record books? I guess perception is reality then? I also attended several of Alts meetings. Yes, he held up antlers to show folks the difference between a 1.5, 2.5, 3.5 buck in Pa. But the discussion was pretty clear that the goal of AR was to improve the "age structure" and "breeding ecology" with larger antlers often being a by product of that goal simply due to bucks gaining another year of age. I'm not trying to take record book trophy opportunities away from anyone. I'm just asking for a fair set of rules allowing everybody a chance at taking what they themselves, see as a trophy. I certainly understand why some would like to shoot any antlered deer they see. You may find that hard to believe but it is true. Part of me does feel that hunters should decide what buck they desire to shoot. But part of me also feels that an older age structure to out herd is probably a good thing. A point to ponder is as we keep losing hunter numbers, and with many hunter passing up smaller legal bucks already, we may get to a point in time where the lifting of ARs may occur.
My rifle is a black rifle
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DarDys
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/18 08:43:29
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dpms
DarDys
Look dpms, you seem like a nice guy, but don’t insult me.
Wasn't meant as an insult. Just telling it like it is. It is a very, very rare 3.5 y/o or older buck in Pa that doesn't meet our AR minimums.
None of the bucks I’ve shot since AR are any bigger, if as big as those shot before AR. I have 6 8-points that are 17” or bigger (all before AR). All of those were mountain deer, so all were over 3.5. In other words, I’ve seen plenty.
The discussion isn't about if bucks are bigger now and what you shot pre or post. The discussion is whether AR has caused genetically inferior bucks and whether they are tons of old deer running around that don't meet AR minimums.
Where I hunt now, I’ve seen plenty that are 3.5 that don’t have brow tines. Never have, never will. These are the ones guys are grousing about passing on.
If they truly were 3.5 or older, and didn't have brow tines, it is highly likely that they would have still met AR minimums. You seem to be fixated on brow tines for some reason. I have shot quite a few AR legal bucks without brow tines.
I’m happy you are having great success, just don’t judge those of us who see a far different picture, especially when you have no idea the skill and experience level you are dealing with.
Again, not judging skill levels. Just questioning how many of these bucks are truly older deer that everyone claims to be seeing that are not AR legal but 3.5 or older. it is very unlikely. What I do question is the ability to actually age deer on the hoof accurately.
When you physically see the same deer on a weekly basis and have even more photos of them, it’s pretty easy to judge 3.5 on the hoof. Heck, we name them. It’s also easy to tell offspring and brothers, especially if you see them year after year. We don’t just hunt here, we live here. Same can almost, almost be said for does. We had one we called Big Momma. She had triplet bucks for three years in a row and two of three bucks the fifth year. Did not see her last year or this year at all. No one around shot her and none of the roadkills looked like her (although a few get pretty mangled), so I am suspecting she died of old age — no telling how old she was before we started seeing her. We have the “three old maids” that have not had any fawns for the last three years — these are our target deer, but probably harder to kill than a buck. We have several families of “black face” deer that have mostly black hair on their face and a very distinct black stripe that runs down their back from between their ears to their tail. Cool to see, but never have more than one dawn.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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dpms
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/18 08:59:34
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DarDys
It’s also easy to tell offspring and brothers, especially if you see them year after year. We don’t just hunt here, we live here.
Actually, that is also highly unlikely. The most seasoned wildlife professionals speak of the high improbability of determining lineage without genetic testing. Does contribute 50% of the genetics and bucks sometimes have two fathers at a rate as high as 50%.
My rifle is a black rifle
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DarDys
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/18 09:33:55
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Okay. You’re right. The folders of deer photos I have for five years showing similar antlers, similar body structures, distinct markings (Dr. Baughman’s famous brook and brown trout studies used spots along the trout’s back to identify each individual fish),and similar facial features are just wrong, especially the ones that show the deer together.
I actually shot a deer in 1982 that when placed next to the rack of one my Dad shot within 300 yards in 1963 couldn’t possibly be related because I’m not a “professional wildlife expert,” even though my minor for my bachelors was animal bioscience with a concentration in genetics, (again, be cognizant of who you might be pontificating to, for you know not their background), even though it looks exactly the same right down to the short split on the G4 on the right side and the curved outward left brow tine. It was always joked that mine was as big as his (mine was 2.5 and his was probably 4.5 — but that’s so hard to tell on the hoof), but it got left bin the drier too long and shrunk — it is that similar.
The over 100 racks my Dad, brother and I collected within 1/2 mile that can be laid out into 4 distinct gene pools are wrong too. Doe genetics do come into play, but not for all features and only if they are dominant.
I work with a lot of academics that produce article after article and study after study and most, not all, but most are based on what they read, not did, of stuff other academics read, not did, of stuff other academics read that call for further studies, more than likely by reading and not doing.
A prime example is the academically well regarded study done by Dr. Rosenberry about the survival of bucks in PA with regard to conclusions that hunters don’t hunt hard enough or far enough from a road. It’s considered solid research.
Yet it is based on a cohort group of 5 total bucks. That’s right 5 bucks were used to represent the entire buck population, which is woefully inadequate. Then, if I recall correctly, it’s been a while since I read it, collar contact was lost on one, so the study sample got even smaller.
Finally, the bucks were collared in May before they even had sufficient antler growth to know if they would be legal or not.
But other studies and articles use this research as a given for their research.
But it is obvious that you are so well read that those of us who have seen it, done it, must be wrong. You know, the don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining crowd.
Best of luck with your area remaining productive. I sincerely hope it does.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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dpms
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ?
2019/12/18 09:48:16
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Backgrounds don't much matter when speaking about reality. It is very difficult under the best circumstances to determine lineage of bucks without genetic testing in a free ranging herd. As I said, does contrinute 50% of the genetic material and bucks as much as 50% pf the time have two different fathers.
My rifle is a black rifle
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