Helpful ReplyWell how about the new Sat. opener ?

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eyesandgillz
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 10:51:46 (permalink)
DarDys
Okay. You’re right. The folders of deer photos I have for five years showing similar antlers, similar body structures, distinct markings (Dr. Baughman’s famous brook and brown trout studies used spots along the trout’s back to identify each individual fish),and similar facial features are just wrong, especially the ones that show the deer together.

I actually shot a deer in 1982 that when placed next to the rack of one my Dad shot within 300 yards in 1963 couldn’t possibly be related because I’m not a “professional wildlife expert,” even though my minor for my bachelors was animal bioscience with a concentration in genetics, (again, be cognizant of who you might be pontificating to, for you know not their background), even though it looks exactly the same right down to the short split on the G4 on the right side and the curved outward left brow tine. It was always joked that mine was as big as his (mine was 2.5 and his was probably 4.5 — but that’s so hard to tell on the hoof), but it got left bin the drier too long and shrunk — it is that similar.

The over 100 racks my Dad, brother and I collected within 1/2 mile that can be laid out into 4 distinct gene pools are wrong too. Doe genetics do come into play, but not for all features and only if they are dominant.

I work with a lot of academics that produce article after article and study after study and most, not all, but most are based on what they read, not did, of stuff other academics read, not did, of stuff other academics read that call for further studies, more than likely by reading and not doing.

A prime example is the academically well regarded study done by Dr. Rosenberry about the survival of bucks in PA with regard to conclusions that hunters don’t hunt hard enough or far enough from a road. It’s considered solid research.

Yet it is based on a cohort group of 5 total bucks. That’s right 5 bucks were used to represent the entire buck population, which is woefully inadequate. Then, if I recall correctly, it’s been a while since I read it, collar contact was lost on one, so the study sample got even smaller.

Finally, the bucks were collared in May before they even had sufficient antler growth to know if they would be legal or not.

But other studies and articles use this research as a given for their research.

But it is obvious that you are so well read that those of us who have seen it, done it, must be wrong. You know, the don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining crowd.

Best of luck with your area remaining productive. I sincerely hope it does.



Asked you before, post 'em up, pictures of 3.5+ yr old 6 points.  I know, I know....they are "lost."  
Anyways, not saying they don't exist but, a 3.5 yr old 6 point without brows is a legal deer....
 
Deer populations ebb and flow, hunter numbers are slowly, but steadily decreasing and not sure when we will see the bottom.  With less hunters overall and definitely less out in the woods during rifle, the approach to the season needs to change.  You need to treat it like archery season....esp. if you are in an area with very little pressure.
 
As far as letting the populations increase with less doe tags, I would wager against that big time.  With EHD and especially CWD becoming more prevalent and the DMA's expanding every year, the PGC will be wanting minimal deer densities in these areas in perpetuity to help limit its spread.  Not saying that is the correct approach but that is what it will most likely be.  CWD is here to stay....
r3g3
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 12:31:09 (permalink)
As one who has hunted in multiple states as well as  far and wide in my own and prefers 'shooters' over all others, it has been abundantly clear to me that different areas show different gene pools of antler characteristics.
Agree with Dar - as usual- and have posted  here on  occasion pointing out those pools.
Yes there are outliers from traveling bucks, but generally deer of an area will be similar over time.
How often have you heard of a State or region with very impressive antler growth on 4 or 5 year old Deer- more than the growth in your own area.
Once took a 3 1/2 year old barely legal spike in the Catts of NY ( checked by state official) and went on to take an impressive  2 1/2 year old 8 pt on a local state forest very late in the same season ( again- aged by a state official).
The camp in Ny had a decent kill rate of bucks year after year but no wall hangers - ever.
The S/F here in ct was known for nice bucks.
My home areas here in Ct had nice racked mature bucks ( over 2 1/2) but a relative from the other side of the state said the racks I  had harvested were distinctly smaller than those of similar age where he lived.
I went where he lived and still do scoring some dandy bucks over time,- its an hours drive compared to 10 minutes - but he was RIGHT.
post edited by r3g3 - 2019/12/18 13:18:42
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 13:07:07 (permalink)
Gene quoting paragraph by paragraph I have not mastered by phone, so please bear with me.

Alt did hold up antlers, as means to sell his project and became rather irate at the RGVFD in Venango County when asked. "did those antlers come from PA deer"? When Gary answered yes, he was immediately asked, "why in the hell the need for his project, if PA already has deer with those types of antlers"? Gary then stressed the need for an older deer population only to generate a unison response, "bullchyt" from those who weren't drooling all over themselves.

Gary Alt used those antlers to "sell" his project.... nothing more, nothing less.

Now about that "age structure"? 😁 Why the need? Because Gary Alt says PA needs older deer?

No neighbor, I did not and will not believe the "Alt Project" has anything to do with age structuring the PA deer.

No way in hell could that plan ever work across PA. I still say, the plan was intended to make deer hunting, only available, in select sections of PA.

About the age structuring....

Take just one neighboring household, near my previous address. (3) youth (5) junior and (5) senior hunters. (remember, these folks don't have... TVs😉)

How old will a deer become, under these circumstances?

That's just one family, mind you. On a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, a parade of horse & buggies going by my previous address.

Again I begrudge noone the opportunity to take wild game, I just want a fair chance, to take the same buck that likely ends, hanging in a neighbors barn.

I know it's not intentional but it's a slap in the face, to those of us who have, for many years, paid the price to hunt.

It's heartbreaking, to watch the very folks (many my friends) who have contributed for all their lives, hanging up their guns. Hanging up their guns, not because they "can not" hunt but because they are prevented from hunting, by the very agency the older generation has supported for a lifetime.

Hell, many like myself, no longer apply for their lifetime senior combination license even though the license cost us nothing.

No big deal some might say, those license are free but what they do forget is the old adage "word of mouth is the best advertisement" and now that word is being hushed.

I'm rather disappointed, in my self, in that I expected the PGC being curious as to why I would "just give up" on such a great opportunity to hunt PA. Then I remembered, none of my friends or family were ever contacted by anyone, regarding their decision to hang it up.

So why too would I not be automatically placed in the files .... "too old to hunt".

Now, I read similar stories, bringing back the memories of friends & families hanging it up.

Welp... all I can say to those who question and lecture those of us finding fault with ARs and/or the The PGC. As younz continue growing older, heed what you read and hear what is said for you are seeing and hearing your hunting future. Remember too, another old adage "if YOU build it, THEY will come". The predators lurk.... careful, no spotburning.



Gene, I sure hope you are correct in thinking there shall come changes to ARs & also HRs. Hopefully those changes are to completely dispose of those regulations.

In closing, let me be perfectly clear(🤗).... late season archery is upon you, be safe good luck to all, while swinging your feet in the trees.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2019/12/18 13:36:32

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 13:26:45 (permalink)
Eyes this "EHD and especially CWD becoming more prevalent" thingy.

I'm having problem in my old age, any help finding actual records showing numbers, will be appreciated.

Danged old timers.

Anybody killed a deer infected with any type of disease?

I yield to my fellow colleagues.

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
r3g3
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 13:31:45 (permalink)
Shoot all the doe- including button skippers-and then think there are gonna be more older bucks is a faulted recipe.
I do NOT shoot doe in areas were I hunt shooters -no accidental buttons or live bait removed from the system- not to mention just disturbing the natural flow for even part of a day.
All my deer are natural flow-not pushed and I will not do anything to have any impact on pushing them to go nocturnal.
 Ya can get 14 tags here in Ct and some areas have even more replacement doe tag availability-guys are saying the same as you= geee whered they all gooo  --I CANT FIGURE OUT WHY???
 
OK OK just an old guy from CT who's been chasing deer for well over 55 years- I'll be quite for a while   lol.
 
PS- back 'in the day-( in the 60's) out around Sugar Grove PA if ya didnt see 20 or more a day ya musta fell asleep.
Seeing them is half the fun IMHO.
post edited by r3g3 - 2019/12/18 13:43:58
DarDys
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 13:35:30 (permalink)
eyesandgillz
DarDys
Okay. You’re right. The folders of deer photos I have for five years showing similar antlers, similar body structures, distinct markings (Dr. Baughman’s famous brook and brown trout studies used spots along the trout’s back to identify each individual fish),and similar facial features are just wrong, especially the ones that show the deer together.

I actually shot a deer in 1982 that when placed next to the rack of one my Dad shot within 300 yards in 1963 couldn’t possibly be related because I’m not a “professional wildlife expert,” even though my minor for my bachelors was animal bioscience with a concentration in genetics, (again, be cognizant of who you might be pontificating to, for you know not their background), even though it looks exactly the same right down to the short split on the G4 on the right side and the curved outward left brow tine. It was always joked that mine was as big as his (mine was 2.5 and his was probably 4.5 — but that’s so hard to tell on the hoof), but it got left bin the drier too long and shrunk — it is that similar.

The over 100 racks my Dad, brother and I collected within 1/2 mile that can be laid out into 4 distinct gene pools are wrong too. Doe genetics do come into play, but not for all features and only if they are dominant.

I work with a lot of academics that produce article after article and study after study and most, not all, but most are based on what they read, not did, of stuff other academics read, not did, of stuff other academics read that call for further studies, more than likely by reading and not doing.

A prime example is the academically well regarded study done by Dr. Rosenberry about the survival of bucks in PA with regard to conclusions that hunters don’t hunt hard enough or far enough from a road. It’s considered solid research.

Yet it is based on a cohort group of 5 total bucks. That’s right 5 bucks were used to represent the entire buck population, which is woefully inadequate. Then, if I recall correctly, it’s been a while since I read it, collar contact was lost on one, so the study sample got even smaller.

Finally, the bucks were collared in May before they even had sufficient antler growth to know if they would be legal or not.

But other studies and articles use this research as a given for their research.

But it is obvious that you are so well read that those of us who have seen it, done it, must be wrong. You know, the don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining crowd.

Best of luck with your area remaining productive. I sincerely hope it does.



Asked you before, post 'em up, pictures of 3.5+ yr old 6 points.  I know, I know....they are "lost."  
Anyways, not saying they don't exist but, a 3.5 yr old 6 point without brows is a legal deer....
 
Deer populations ebb and flow, hunter numbers are slowly, but steadily decreasing and not sure when we will see the bottom.  With less hunters overall and definitely less out in the woods during rifle, the approach to the season needs to change.  You need to treat it like archery season....esp. if you are in an area with very little pressure.
 
As far as letting the populations increase with less doe tags, I would wager against that big time.  With EHD and especially CWD becoming more prevalent and the DMA's expanding every year, the PGC will be wanting minimal deer densities in these areas in perpetuity to help limit its spread.  Not saying that is the correct approach but that is what it will most likely be.  CWD is here to stay....


4-points and there not legal. Also, not lost, deleted because, well, they are 4-points. If you are going to try to post a counter argument, at least get it right.

BTW, word on the street is that AR is being removed in the CWD areas. If that’s the case, I’ll intentionally shoot one so I can post the photo for you.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
BloodyHand
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 13:41:13 (permalink)
I'm with DPMS on the fact that I too have good ground to hunt on. I've definitely had to change my strategies over the years with the ever changing times and newer regulations. It took almost all of the last 15 years for AR to Start working in my areas that I noticed. I've also noticed a lot more of big bodied Bucks that aren't legal to shoot. ( I hunt in 3-up counties ). Definitely a lot less deer now than in 2004. ( is that around when they started HR/AR ?? )
 
BH
dpms
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 13:47:28 (permalink)
BeenThereDoneThat.
Gary Alt used those antlers to "sell" his project.... nothing more, nothing less.

 
He did. I have mentioned that before and do have an issue with how the whole deal was sold to sportsman. One of the comments from Alt that I especially had a problem with was when he said pa would have more and bigger bucks. Due to self correcting buck/doe ratios(which is another topic) you cannot reduce the population of deer and end up with more male deer. It is simply impossible.  

Now about that "age structure"? 😁 Why the need? Because Gary Alt says PA needs older deer?

 
As was mentioned before, nature intends a certain age structure to a species. In Pa, due to our very high pressure on male deer, we had very few deer older than 2.5 prior to AR. Is our male deer herd back to where nature intends? No. Is it closer to where it should be than it was? Yes. 

It's heartbreaking, to watch the very folks (many my friends) who have contributed for all their lives, hanging up their guns. Hanging up their guns, not because they "can not" hunt but because they are prevented from hunting, by the very agency the older generation has supported for a lifetime.

 
It is to me as well. No matter the current regulations or deer population, we were looking at a drastic loss in hunters numbers in this state. It is inevitable. Pa had a very old population. One of the oldest in the country. That holds true within our hunter ranks as well. 

Gene, I sure hope you are correct in thinking there shall come changes to ARs & also HRs. Hopefully those changes are to completely dispose of those regulations.

 
Time will tell, but I suspect changes will come. Especially as CWD spreads and AR become a liability. 

In closing, let me be perfectly clear(🤗).... late season archery is upon you, be safe good luck to all, while swinging your feet in the trees.



Thanks. I will be switching between bow and flintlock until heading to South Carolina at the end of January to chase wild hogs. 

My rifle is a black rifle
dpms
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 13:51:21 (permalink)
BloodyHand
I'm with DPMS on the fact that I too have good ground to hunt on.



 
Some say the ground I hunt isn't that good. I saw 6 bucks on the rifle opener and between the other 5 guys, they saw 2 I think. According to a few of them, the deer numbers are down. Hunting is a matter of perspective. Two people hunting the same ground can have vastly different opinions on the hunting. The way I look at it is I see much higher success than the group I hunt with for a reason. 

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anzomcik
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 13:55:01 (permalink)
r3g3
Shoot all the doe- including button skippers-and then think there are gonna be more older bucks is a faulted recipe.



 
I never seen anything about shooting ALL the doe... It is well documented that there is a herd benefit to doe harvest. One could present a case that to many doe on the landscape would increase buck mortality from winter kill. Frame work being longer rutting activity, leaving the bucks depleted later in the fall making recovery difficult, only to die in winter. Along with that competition for food would be higher, only so much pie to go around in high density areas. This has a huge dependency on density, food, and weather. I am not saying it happened all the time but certainly has happened.
r3g3
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 14:15:25 (permalink)
Hadda come back for a moment-
OK OK OK I said 'all the doe"
Excuse me- change it to-- "too many".
Sorry as all get out for the paraphrase that some musta took as gospel.
Now I will go away much happier for the decision than I was the last time I said it.
CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 14:23:16 (permalink)
Everybody keeps saying the AR's are working when in fact it's the private land postings that are aging deer much faster , along with way less hunters. There are areas posted that allow no hunting period ....none.....lots of them ...and more coming every year. These deer will die of old age without AR"s !
 
15 years for AR's to just start working  ?   I wish somebody told me that 15 years ago ....I'd have waited to buy a hunting license till now !
CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 14:27:24 (permalink)
dpms
BloodyHand
I'm with DPMS on the fact that I too have good ground to hunt on.



 
Some say the ground I hunt isn't that good. I saw 6 bucks on the rifle opener and between the other 5 guys, they saw 2 I think. According to a few of them, the deer numbers are down.  




Do the ones that say that drink a lot ?
dpms
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 14:39:25 (permalink)
CAPTAIN HOOK
Do the ones that say that drink a lot ?



No more than me. 
 
Basically, they want to hunt the same areas they always hunted in places where they can see farther. I prefer to hunt tighter areas with bedding cover close by. With little pressure these days, rifle hunting has become similar to archery hunting. Those that figure it out will do better. 
 
I also tend to put in more time, both scouting and hunting than the others and I am constantly changing where I hunt. I also tend to be that guy who is farthest from camp. 
post edited by dpms - 2019/12/18 14:40:41

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DarDys
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 15:03:27 (permalink)
So, I dug into my trash bin and came up with some photos of 4-points from this year, a 1.5, a 2.5 and a 3.5. 
 
 
Keep in mind, these deer live 250 yards out my back door.  There were photos (couldn't find those in the trash bin because Im not taking the time to bother) since they had spots.
post edited by DarDys - 2019/12/18 15:08:31

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The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 15:59:26 (permalink)
This is from my earlier post ...I was waiting on my friend to reply ....he did .
 
Deer aging ... Pa. deer
 

I have a friend that is very good at aging deer , he's done it for many years and has checked lots of deer teeth / jaws. I'd put him against any biologist when it comes to aging deer. 
 
His words ...." most bucks I've checked over the years were mostly 2.5 years old, once in awhile you get a 3 or 4 year old . The oldest buck I checked was a 5.5 year old."
 
"Today there are more bigger bucks with posted land and AR's, but I think the posted land helps produce more than the antler thing. It's not like 30 years ago , today everything is posted everywhere you look! ....that's just my opinion ."
 
I've checked some real old does....8-9 years old.
 
Once a deer gets around 9 -10 their teeth are worn to the gum line or almost gone ."      




 
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 18:09:48 (permalink)
DarDys
So, I dug into my trash bin and came up with some photos of 4-points from this year, a 1.5, a 2.5 and a 3.5. 
 
 
Keep in mind, these deer live 250 yards out my back door.  There were photos (couldn't find those in the trash bin because Im not taking the time to bother) since they had spots.




What are you basing those ages on? 

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dpms
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 18:12:28 (permalink)
CAPTAIN HOOK
This is from my earlier post ...I was waiting on my friend to reply ....he did .

Deer aging ... Pa. deer


I have a friend that is very good at aging deer , he's done it for many years and has checked lots of deer teeth / jaws. I'd put him against any biologist when it comes to aging deer. 

His words ...." most bucks I've checked over the years were mostly 2.5 years old, once in awhile you get a 3 or 4 year old . The oldest buck I checked was a 5.5 year old."



Sounds about right. Most bucks in Pa are still young. Some hunters shoot a gray faced buck with a thin rack and think it is a 7 year old buck "going downhill". Reality it is is just a 2 year old that is still growing. 

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thunderpole
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 18:12:39 (permalink)
Everything is ****ed in PA if you ask me stocked pheasants trout steelhead, walleye muskies, pa is a put and keep state bar none, the deer regs suck to everyone do ars work ahh yes no maby so, does posted land help yes ( but your 1000 acre posted might have zero suitable habitat for a big buck, let alone many deer) here in nw pa mercer co there's plenty of deer the age structure is horrible but they are here and in good numbers, my numbers and yours his whoever's may not match but I see it 365 days a year, iv tracked deer year to year not many but if seen some grow and get shot 10 miles away could it be we don't see our target buck dead? I tracked 1 4.5 5.5 yo buck just vanished could be older defently not younger. Never seen him dead, heard of him, just gone did dutch kill em? Maby who knows poached? Maby who knows I seen far less hunters here in my small area to ,I mainly only hunt few small areas but we know everyone, and hear most (to an extent) i didnt even see many dutch around here hunting this year maby there heading to the big woods in those vans? But over past 15 years of lived hunted this area I havnt seen a difference in our deer hear some big some small but plenty deer, rant over commence arguing 😂😂

I'd rather be lucky then good,but im to good to be lucky
DarDys
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/18 22:57:31 (permalink)
dpms
DarDys
So, I dug into my trash bin and came up with some photos of 4-points from this year, a 1.5, a 2.5 and a 3.5. 
 
 
Keep in mind, these deer live 250 yards out my back door.  There were photos (couldn't find those in the trash bin because Im not taking the time to bother) since they had spots.




What are you basing those ages on? 


Living with these deer in my backyard 365 days a year.

Look, I’m sorry that actual empirical evidence doesn't fit your narrative.

Let’s make a deal, I won’t tell you about traffic and parking in Pittsburgh and you refrain from telling me about the deer that live outside my back door because I know nothing about your situation and you sure know nothing about mine.
post edited by DarDys - 2019/12/18 22:58:34

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
dpms
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/19 07:49:37 (permalink)
DarDys
Look, I’m sorry that actual empirical evidence doesn't fit your narrative.

 
That is an assumption you are making. I asked what you are basing those ages off of? I am especially interested in number 2 and 3 and the history of both. Those are very poor pictures to attempt to try to get into an age discussion on. 





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DarDys
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/19 09:11:49 (permalink)
My 8 cameras are set to take 5 rapid photos and then 30 seconds of video. These are the only photos I had in the trash bin, but I’ve seen these particular deer quite a lot, both in pics and physically.

From my back porch I can see about 100 acres of fields and the cameras cover the woods. In addition, my neighbors are farmers and hunters. They see the same deer as I do and we actually talk to each other about what we observe.

This is like asking you what kinds of cars your neighbors drive or how many kids they have. These deer are our neighbors, in fact that is exactly what we say when deer appear, “The neighbors are out.”

I wish I still had the photo of the really big 4-point, he is 25% wider, higher, and heavier than the 3.5 I attached. Haven’t seen him this year at all, so I’m guessing, guessing, mind you, that he died of old age. This is based on he wasn’t legal for anyone to shoot, there are no junior hunters on the 1,800 acres, and nine of the ones squished on the road appear to be him. But, maybe he just moved off. They do that on occasion.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/19 10:33:14 (permalink)
dpms
DarDys
Look, I’m sorry that actual empirical evidence doesn't fit your narrative.

 
That is an assumption you are making. I asked what you are basing those ages off of? I am especially interested in number 2 and 3 and the history of both. Those are very poor pictures to attempt to try to get into an age discussion on. 






Gene, I'm hearing, a guy cannot assume the deer he has been seeing for three years can be the same deer?

You saying the age of a deer can only be determined by a biologist or a person qualified in reading the teeth of a deer?

Also, am I hearing, a buck cannot have a "good" rack one year and a "scrub rack" the next?
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2019/12/19 10:36:23

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
eyesandgillz
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/19 11:25:49 (permalink)
Dardys,
I guess you are right.  My cousin told me his neighbor shot a 20" wide 6 point on the first day.  It was a legal 6 point so no brows.  Not sure if they were broken off or that was his natural rack.  
eyes....
dpms
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/19 11:30:54 (permalink)
BeenThereDoneThat.
Gene, I'm hearing, a guy cannot assume the deer he has been seeing for three years can be the same deer?

 
It could be? I said a 3.5 year old deer that doesn't meet our AR minimums is a very rare deer. 

You saying the age of a deer can only be determined by a biologist or a person qualified in reading the teeth of a deer?

 
I never said that. There is only one way to accurately age a deer. That is by cross sectional analysis of teeth. Visual examining teeth for wear is less accurate as diet can influence wear. Looking at body characteristics is again subjective. Basing an age off of antlers is even less precise. The more experience you have at 2 and 3, the more accurate the estimation. 

Also, am I hearing, a buck cannot have a "good" rack one year and a "scrub rack" the next?



They can grow less antler in successive years. One reason would be very poor nutrition during the antler growth period. Another reason would be a buck that is very old. Another reason would be injury. If none of those occurred, it is very likely that a buck will push out more inches of antler and pop abnormal points as they age. 

My rifle is a black rifle
r3g3
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/19 12:40:36 (permalink)
When ya look at the few remaining teeth on a swamp donkey ya wonder how the heck he coulda eaten browse and lived through the winter.
DarDys
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/20 12:03:22 (permalink)
eyesandgillz
Dardys,
I guess you are right.  My cousin told me his neighbor shot a 20" wide 6 point on the first day.  It was a legal 6 point so no brows.  Not sure if they were broken off or that was his natural rack.  
eyes....


No brow tines is a recessive gene, but it is a strong recessive, meaning unless a buck with the dominant brow tine gene also successfully breeds the same doe (the doe can have some effect on make gene markers, but on a one to one basis normally), no brow tines gets thrown.

The problem in my area is at the inception or slightly after AR, the oldest, most dominant buck sported a huge, no brow tine 4-point rack. Over the years since, thus recessive trait has proliferated to the level that more than 50% of the resident bucks physically seen or on camera, have this type of rack. The result is a preponderance of the gene pool that gets passed on includes these recessives.

The only way to remove it is to kill it. Currently, that can’t be done.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/20 14:05:35 (permalink)
Interesting comments Dar .....
 
I know for a fact ....hunters in the 3 up area are accidently killing 3 on the side bucks ,(shoot then go look )  so as far as that working ...whatever . No most are not leaving them to rot just changing the tag info . Why the whole state isn't under one rule is beyond me and a lot of western Pa. hunters.
 
These AR's have turned some hunters into hunting law breakers ....over the years I've heard some sad stories that were never present before AR's ....when almost all bucks were legal. 
 
Maybe the PGC will come to determine that in many areas this 17 year old AR program has not lived up to expectations and may need eased up and allow nature and regular controlled seasons to manage deer aging. With all the private and posted property these days deer have an excellent chance to live longer ,along with thousands of less hunters pursuing them. 
 
Maybe this is as good as it will ever get !
 
In my hunting area it's basically no different than before AR's ...a few trophy bucks here and there....same as it always was. 
 
thunderpole
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/20 15:47:58 (permalink)
I agree captain wholeheartedly, most guys are happy to shoot any buck just for the meat I want a big one as much as anyone else but I'm tired of wasting my 60 day duck season on deer hunting for basically a pipe dream. I'd rather spend my money elsewhere and hunt out west this year really ruined deer hunting in pa for me 10 days I seen thousands of deer hundreds of bucks, pa a fraction of that and only one was "legal" 🖓the grass is greener elsewhere

I'd rather be lucky then good,but im to good to be lucky
dpms
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Re: Well how about the new Sat. opener ? 2019/12/21 07:43:33 (permalink)
DarDys
The problem in my area is at the inception or slightly after AR, the oldest, most dominant buck sported a huge, no brow tine 4-point rack. Over the years since, thus recessive trait has proliferated to the level that more than 50% of the resident bucks physically seen or on camera, have this type of rack. The result is a preponderance of the gene pool that gets passed on includes these recessives.

The only way to remove it is to kill it. Currently, that can’t be done.



Actually, nature naturally removes bad genes from an area. Most male fawns disperse. Male fawns in your area move out of it and male fawns from other others move into your area. As was mentioned before, it is about impossible to alter the genetics in a free ranging whitetail herd. Those "no brow" bucks are leaving before they grow their first set of antlers and are being replaced by other bucks from different gene pools. 

My rifle is a black rifle
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