CAPTAIN HOOK
 

lost sage rod sectio
Pa. has become the apple deer state. I live in NW PA and they do kill some nice bucks around here but when you feed them all summer and give them salt They come for there treat and the hunters kill them no I'm not bitter because I lived in a time when you went to the woods and hunted fair chase, and enjoyed every minute of it. Its the PGC problem now and they will take care of it.!!!!!

a few years ago they caught guys hunting on private property in mercer county ,all hunting over bushels of corn spread out...just happen to be the property owners ....oh yea their property was heavily posted also...what a challenge , what great hunters too !
 
Around here they plant food plots just to bring them in all fall...to their hunting areas of course !
 
I hear Pa. is going purple ! Every tree in the state will be sprayed purple soon ...what a joke this idea is .... this will be abused by people that don't even own the land or want anybody in their secret hunting area. Who's going to know ? Better yet who's going to erase it once it's purple ? Nobody...that's who  ! This might be the death blow for future hunting .
 
I'll say it again the PCG has screwed deer hunting up so bad the past 20 years it's a wonder any young hunters will hold an interest ...every year they change regulations ...anything to justify their jobs....and if you believe those figures and numbers they put out ...keep dreaming ! And after 17 years of AR's bucks still can't get over 2.5 years old ...so much for that working great . Take 300k hunters out of the woods like has happened and post up miles and miles of property and bucks have to get somewhat bigger ...even without AR's.
 
Welcome to Pa. the land of Doe hunting.,...Santa's going to be mad come Saturday !!!!...lol   
 

 
Bitter much, cap?
Purple blazes would be MUCH better than the yellow posters....and no tearing down.  Death nail for hunting?  Sorry, I can't wrap my head around that statement for some reason.  Many, many states seem to do just fine with blazes on trees marking property lines.  I know, I know, it isn't PA....sry.  
 

eyesandgillz

CAPTAIN HOOK
 

lost sage rod sectio
Pa. has become the apple deer state. I live in NW PA and they do kill some nice bucks around here but when you feed them all summer and give them salt They come for there treat and the hunters kill them no I'm not bitter because I lived in a time when you went to the woods and hunted fair chase, and enjoyed every minute of it. Its the PGC problem now and they will take care of it.!!!!!

a few years ago they caught guys hunting on private property in mercer county ,all hunting over bushels of corn spread out...just happen to be the property owners ....oh yea their property was heavily posted also...what a challenge , what great hunters too !
 
Around here they plant food plots just to bring them in all fall...to their hunting areas of course !
 
I hear Pa. is going purple ! Every tree in the state will be sprayed purple soon ...what a joke this idea is .... this will be abused by people that don't even own the land or want anybody in their secret hunting area. Who's going to know ? Better yet who's going to erase it once it's purple ? Nobody...that's who  ! This might be the death blow for future hunting .
 
I'll say it again the PCG has screwed deer hunting up so bad the past 20 years it's a wonder any young hunters will hold an interest ...every year they change regulations ...anything to justify their jobs....and if you believe those figures and numbers they put out ...keep dreaming ! And after 17 years of AR's bucks still can't get over 2.5 years old ...so much for that working great . Take 300k hunters out of the woods like has happened and post up miles and miles of property and bucks have to get somewhat bigger ...even without AR's.
 
Welcome to Pa. the land of Doe hunting.,...Santa's going to be mad come Saturday !!!!...lol   
 

 
Bitter much, cap?
Purple blazes would be MUCH better than the yellow posters....and no tearing down.  Death nail for hunting?  Sorry, I can't wrap my head around that statement for some reason.  Many, many states seem to do just fine with blazes on trees marking property lines.  I know, I know, it isn't PA....sry.  
 

+1

Hook I respect you have an opinion, I happen to not agree with it on the topic of hunting in several areas. I know your experience has shaped your opinion, as has mine.

Eyes has mentioned already, your posts are read like they are nothing but a big complaining session, I know “your opinion”. But it should be mentioned with the amount you speak of the reduction of new hunters/keeping hunters blame is all on the PAGC, one can not think that doom and gloom posts (similar to the made by few posters on this thread) carry no weight at all. The constant bashing on our current hunting conditions will not help recruit or keep hunters that might be boarderline. Not everyone has lived your life and many hunters only know the last 20 years, there is no value is the constant distaste post, it only hurts the community.

The sky is not falling. we get it, you don’t like the current state of hunting. Have it be know there are hunting that have the system worked out are getting it done with great deer, making memories they can share with friends and family.

Dave.... or maybe it's just not as easy for an older hunter to "adapt". It's not that we don't see the elusive PA White-Tailed Deer. It's not that we don't see buck, it's more about we do not need to kil ... errrr harvest a "wall hanger" to feel like a the "mighty hunter", as some do on this board.

We only want fair and honest hunting regulations and less BS being spewed by the PGC.

If PA needs "wall hangers" to entice the "mighty hunter" to spend his money on bogus products, guns, and licenses then make the hunting laws equal for everybody, regardless of age.

Let's take away the opportunity for those not seeing a "wall hanger" being able to take their children out, and shoot the non-wall hangers that "could be, might be, thought it would be, a wall hanger next year.

Better yet... just do away with ARs and the BS that goes with it and put PA back as a leader and not, the follower it has become.

Capt. shame on you, having such an influence on future hunters. 🙄

Good for you painting the truth of hunting future.

Keep it up cause apparently you are getting your point across to far more, than the few, on this board, finding fault with your true experiences.

BTW, your years of actual experience doesn't count because it wasn't scientifically generated by some PGC biologist (hopefull) sitting at his college desk or written by some journalist (hopeful) sitting at his desk annnd most of all.... it is not what they see/do in other states. (that statement makes me wanna puke) Turning PA into a state that "follows".

However, if you could provide a link to some internet data base, that reenforces "your true life experiences".... it would still be ignored.

Tomorrow I bet everyone hears more shooting good luck , I can't wait it's gonna be crazy lol

Not sure about anywhere else. But there is 3” of snow on the ground here. There will be some shooting tomorrow

CAPTAIN HOOK
I'm tired of shooting doe and passing bucks year after year because of regulations that haven't proven themselves. 
 

 
The success rate on antlered deer is essentially the same now as it was prior to HR/AR. 
 

dpms

CAPTAIN HOOK
I'm tired of shooting doe and passing bucks year after year because of regulations that haven't proven themselves. 
 

 
The success rate on antlered deer is essentially the same now as it was prior to HR/AR. 
 

 Maybe with todays hunter numbers being way lower it's the same ....I find it hard to believe with the amount of past hunter numbers . Percentages are always mixed up with the basic base numbers.
 
Crime is down 20% from last year ....but last year it was up 30% ...sounds good to hear crime was down now, when it's still actually up overall.  
 
 The camp I hunted out of for 20 years usually averaged about 2 bucks a season pre AR and we killed some nice ones ....now it's lucky to average 1 buck every 3-4 years !  Same amount or more guys now, same area... all public hunting  ...as a matter of fact most camps get skunked fairly often from people I talk to....just what I know around Tionesta area.

Real life experience does matter. Never said that they didn't. Was just relaying some info about the reality of hunting today versus 25 years ago. Yes, we are killing less bucks but we also have 350,000 less deer hunters as well. Success rates are basically unchanged. What has changed are the population dynamics of the deer and the demographics and tactics of the hunters that chase them. 
 
I don't know about you folks, but if my true life experiences don't live up to my expectations, I change what I am doing because success is important to me. Where I hunt and how I hunt are vastly different from 25 years ago. 
 
The population dynamics of deer in this state have changed quite a bit. Many of the traditional "camps" do not see the harvest numbers of the past, so if someone bases their outlook on hunting deer in this state on that real life experience, it is understandable that they would feel is is not very good. But, that is looking at the issue through a small prism and not taking into account the state as a whole and what the information tells us. 

AR sucks..can't eat horns and they get stuck on everything on the drag out jus sayin

BeenThereDoneThat.
I must have misread, I believe you used the word "anecdotal" as in using a personal experience or an isolated example instead of a sound argument or compelling evidence.

What I have said in the past is that anecdotal evidence should not carry more weight than hard data. 

I was staying away from this one, but with the first week of the general season in the books, I guess I’ll wade in.

First off, for all those seeing numerous deer, numerous bucks, killing deer, harvesting big bucks, I am jealous, envious, and could not be happier for you. This is as deer hunting should be and I like nothing more than hunters (and fishers) be successful and enjoying the sport.

For those that aren’t having a great season, I feel your frustration and disappointment. Not seeing what you expect to see or having even a chance is disappointing at best and discouraging at worst.

Finally, for those who write that the unsuccessful hunters have forgotten how to hunt; don’t hunt hard enough; aren’t adapting; need to go elsewhere; etc., I’ll quote the great philosopher, Jimmy Buffett, “Don’t try to describe the scenery if you’ve never seen it.”

To be a little Al Roker-ish, here is what is happening in my neck of the woods — literally.

I hunters the Saturday opener. Saw no deer. Heard 11 shots in the morning, none closer than a mile. Heard 5 shots in the afternoon/evening, one at about 900 yards to the south and two at about 700 yards in the same direction. It was probably the same deer.

Keep in mind, I’m hunting my private ground which is surrounded by other private ground (all of it, except one piece, with a few hunters on each) that comprises about 1,800 acres. These private plots vary in size and make up, in total have it all — agricultural, hills, swamp, creek bottom, thickets, oak ridges, etc. In addition, these plots bound against an entire mountain of SGL. Further, the backside of that mountain is covered with Mennonite farms. Also, since this is a CWD area (although one had yet to test positive), everything except non AR bucks are legal.

Hunted Tuesday. Saw no deer. Heard one shot, not closer than a mile.

Hunter Thursday evening. Saw no deer. Heard three shots, 1,000
yards (knowing where the deer travel and who is hunting pinpoints the distance) to the north.

Hunted Friday evening. Saw no deer. Heard no shots.

Hunted Saturday. Heard two shots in the morning in the same 900 yard distance to the south as the opening day shots. Interesting thing is, this is the only “No Hunting” area in any distance. The only access is either through the property gate, which isn’t happening, or by parking along a limited access highway (illegal); jumping the fence (illegal); and trespassing (illegal). It wasn’t 15 minutes and I saw two ATV’s heading from the property buildings along the ridgeline toward where the shots were fired.

In the evening, it was getting pretty dark when I heard two rapid shots on the neighbor’s to the south at about 400 yards. In about 10 minutes, a does appears in the neighbor’s field. It was obviously wounded as it was hunched up and dragging its left rear leg. As I watched it, I could tell the shot was high in the hip. It was not fatal, but the deer would die by falling in the creek it was headed for; starvation because it couldn’t get around; infection; or caught by coyotes.

It really pained me to see that, so when it stopped on the neighbor’s farm road in a opening through my trees, I dropped it. It was my intention to call the neighbor and let him know that I finished one of his farm hands messes, but in about 10 minutes, here comes a guy.

He wasn’t within 45 yards of where the deer came across the field. He didn’t even have a light on looking for blood. There was no way he was going to find that deer if I hadn’t shot it. Heck, he couldn’t find it and I delivered it right on the road (Deer Dash delivery?).

I hollered over to him and voice directed him until he darn near fell over it before he saw it. I asked if he needed any help and he said no. Never did say thank you.

That was the only deer I have seen in the general season and in the last five archery trips. I have not heard 25 shots all season. But it’s probably me.

But, maybe not.

My outdoor writer friend, who hunts his family property (100+ a acres) which borders a sportsman’s club (400 acres) and a SGL, all about 25 miles NE of me, killed a 5-point at 10:00 on the opener. It was the only deer he saw, except for a 4-point near his vehicle on the way out. His was the only shot he heard.

He still hunted Wednesday and Thursday in the fresh snow for a doe (CWD area) and never saw a deer or heard a shot.

But it is probably just him.

But maybe not.

A friend who hunts a 1,000 acre lease (20 miles east of me) with 8 other hunters shot a dandy 11-point in the early afternoon. It was the only shot fired that they heard and the only deer any of them saw. But it was probably just him.

But maybe not.

A super hunter friend that had access to 60 prime acred (15 miles NE of me) that is literally borders by more than 1,500 acres of QDM private ground on one side and a state park on the other (we refer to the area as Buck Boulevard) saw a spike and a limping 8-point in archery; no deer the opening Saturday; two unknowns in the predawn Monday; and a predawn unknown on Saturday (nothing the rest of the week). He heard five shots opening day and no others. But it’s probably him.

But maybe not.

A former coworker hunts the state park behind the aforementioned property and he saw a coyote the opening day, but no deer. He heard three shots. But it’s probably him.

But maybe not.

My compadre who’s family owns 700 acres in Bedford County hunted every day dawn to dark from the opening morning through this Saturday afternoon. He never saw a deer until Saturday afternoon, when he saw two does.
But it’s probably him.

But maybe not.

My outdoor writer friend delivered his deer to the processor by noon on the opening day. Typically, this processor does about 1,000 deer per year, with +/- 300 coming opening day. He was #21 at noon. This processor does most of our county and parts of four surrounding counties. He is actually one of the few still around because CWD rules for disposal have ruled out a lot of the little guys. BTW, he saves all the heads and the GC picks them up for testing. They have never found a positive.

Usually it take a week or so to get the regular cuts back and until after the new year for specialty products. My buddy got the call that his regular cuts were done at 11:00 on Sunday, less than 24 hours after drop off. He had his specialty products two days later.

So it might not just be us.

I don’t purport to know what the issue is, but something is very wrong and it’s not extremely localized.

Best of luck to all y’all still heading out. And in the words of SGT Esterhouse, “Be careful out there.”

dpms
 
 
They have explained it in detail. Ars are meant to protect a certain percentage of the 1.5 year old bucks. They have determined that in some areas of the state, the ARs need to be more restrictive than other areas due to several factors including habitat and nutrition available to deer. A 1.5 year old buck in the 3 up areas tends to have more antler than a 1.5 year old buck in the 2 point areas. 
 
 

This isn't really an "explanation" as to why we have AR's at all, or why they're more restrictive in Western PA than the rest of the state, other than to say, bucks in Western PA tend to be slightly bigger than bucks in the rest of the state because of habitat and food.  
 
I've still never heard any sound biological explanation as to why we have AR's.  It is purely and simply a ploy to get hunters to shoot more does.  Which, now that I think of it, may be a secondary biological benefit of AR that helped early on to lower some of the out of control deer densities in some parts of the state.  
 
I've got quite a few buddies who have been true trophy hunters long before AR.  These are the guys who have had access to good size chunks of private land and continue to have it, and hunt it carefully and selectively.  They spend lots of time and money improving, managing, monitoring and hunting their property.  I ask them from time to time if AR's have done anything for them.  They all say it has done nothing to improve the size of the bucks on their property, and in fact many complain about how often they see too many scrub bucks now because of it.  
 
 
 
 

Fair enough.  
 
So why do we have AR's at all?
 
 

Anzo, I appreciate that you acknowledge that things are different in different areas, especially when you've got tight control of a sizable chunk of real estate.  
 
Do you think the improvement you've seen since AR is more due to the self imposed restrictions of your family members that hunt there, or because neighboring properties have to abide by AR's too?  Did you have those same self imposed restrictions before AR?  

rsquared
Anzo, I appreciate that you acknowledge that things are different in different areas, especially when you've got tight control of a sizable chunk of real estate.  
 
Do you think the improvement you've seen since AR is more due to the self imposed restrictions of your family members that hunt there, or because neighboring properties have to abide by AR's too?  Did you have those same self imposed restrictions before AR?  

We have a 110 acre farm, about 50 acres of that is field, 40 acres of that 50 field acres is leased to a local crop farmer. I tell people we hunt 110 acreas that hunts like 60 acres, not complaining, but you cant hunt in the middle of those big fields.
 
Like it said in the post above, we do not hold any rule to anything other than the law with antler size, if its legal its fair game. As far as we know the neighbors abide by the law as well, no rule on anything beyond that.
 
we never had any kind of AR prior to 2002, if its legal shoot it if you want. 
 
Some changes that will absolutely play in to better hunting on our personal level that cost very little. 
- better scent control. Washing cloth offten, spraying, change when i get to the property (not driving in hunting cloths), showering, wear a face mask to filter breath... nothing earth shattering but it all adds up. Yes they can still smell me, but it could buy a couple seconds that matter
- designated walking trails to stands, i use to weed whack and rake the trail, not i weed whack and leaf blow to reduce noise
-Hunting low impact stands early season, swing for the fences during rut
- hunt the wind
 
 
Old deer are different than young deer, we by no means have it down, but try to learn all the time. Those big old deer are there, we just do not know it all the time, if it were not for cameras i would not know most of them.