ORIGINAL: bingsbaits

The Law is the law...If the law sucks change it...

- Doug Stanhope

Nice quote Bing

Whats wrong with a set distance

I agree ..... make baiting legal....

If the law was xx distance from bait then everyone could put out bait then move xx distance from it and hunt to their heart's content... how about 100 yards.. that sounds great to me !!!

My point was simply that's why there is no set distance on how far you have to be from a bait pile....

Other states have a set distance that a hunter must be from a bait site.

What state outlaws baiting but okays a certain distance from a bait pile to legally hunt...??



that just does not make sense ....

Thank you bingsbaits !

ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures

My point exactly !! Too many laws of this kind. I don't like to play the guessing game when I hunt. Reporting such a manner only provokes the landowner and causes more conflict between him and the neighbors. Set a distance, plain and simple. Why should a judge decide?

 
LoL
yeah, why should a judge have to judge something....
 
 
 
I agree however, we don't need our laws to be worded such a strange way.  No reason to come down on a WCO on a msg board about it.(are you the bird lady?)  Understand that RCB or whatever his name is didn't write the law in greek, he just has to do the best he can to enforce it in english.  I'm glad there are dudes like him out there.

some crossbow manufacturers recommend not leaving them cocked for even 8 hrs. or even less

Here's the Ga. law... and it appears to me to be MORE complicated than the PGCs ---

§ 27-3-9. Unlawful enticement of game

(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to place, expose, deposit,
distribute, or scatter any corn, wheat, or other grains, salts, apples,
or other feeds or bait so as to constitute a lure or attraction or
enticement for any game bird or game animal on or over any area where
hunters are or will be hunting; provided, however, that it shall be
lawful to hunt deer within the vicinity of such feeds if the hunter is
at least 200 yards away from and not within sight of the feed or bait.

(b) Except as otherwise provided by law or regulation, it shall be
unlawful for any person to hunt any game bird or game animal upon, over,
around, or near any place where any such feed or bait has been placed,
exposed, deposited, distributed, or scattered so as to constitute a
lure, attraction, or enticement to such birds or animals. It shall also
be unlawful to hunt any game animal or game bird upon, over, around, or
near any such place for a period of ten days following the complete
removal of all such feed or bait.

part b sounds just like what we have for Pa..... except we have 30 days...

and it sounds like deer hunting may be an exception if more than 200 yards from the bait and if that's the case = I call that legally baiting deer.......

So you are saying you agree that we should be able to hunt deer as long as we are at least 200 yards away from and not within sight of bait ....

I'll vote for that !!!!

and you're right that's pretty simple to understand ...it's call baiting deer

ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures

So what is so complicated about their law? Seems pretty cut and dry to me. The PGC should take note on how to write laws, or maybe they like confushion....$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 
I don't think there is anything wrong with our laws concerning baiting deer. The cases I know of where someone has been cited were cut and dried ie. corn under a tree stand during archery, "deer cocaine" under a stand during archery etc. If there were dozens of people being cited for accidentally hunting by an unseen bait site on adjacent posted property then I'd feel differently. We could make up situations all day where our fish and game laws seem too vague or not applicable, but the reality is they ARE applicable for almost every situation, which is all you can expect of any law or regulation.
 
A set distance away from bait is just going to ENCOURAGE BAITING.

I understand what you are saying and understand completely. Using PUBLIC land was not the best example of your theory. Hunters have no control on public land and there fore no bait of any kind should be allowed to be placed there. My original question was how far do I have to be away from a neighbors feeding station? What's so hard about that?

ORIGINAL: RSB

ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures

Whats wrong with a set distance? Just another vague law................

First of all having a distance a hunter has to be from bait is simply making bait legal and I assure you it would not be the good thing some hunters think. The day they set a distance any hunter will be able to shut down large areas of their favorite hunting grounds to all other hunters.
 
Say they make the distance 200 yards, and I don’t care if the law says visible of not, the first thing I will do is sight my rifle in for 225 yards. Then I will head out to my favorite areas of the game lands and place bait in a circular fashion 225 yards around my where I want to post. I will then go out another 175 from that circle and place bait in another larger circle. At that point I will have affectively shut down a huge area of the game lands to all hunters but me. Then if any other hunter moves to within 400 yards in any direction of my spot I can just go tell them they are hunting too close to bait and they will have to move on. If they refuse to move on they will be in violation.
 
Now just think about how many of a hunter’s favorite hunting areas they could shut down to all other hunters.
 
Do you see why there is not set distance and why it really is best to let it to officer judgment with the court making the real decision based on the totality of the factors concerning the individual cases?
 
R.S. Bodenhorn

ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures
 My original question was how far do I have to be away from a neighbors feeding station? What's so hard about that?

 
If you know it is there, don't hunt within sight of it and don't hunt obvious travel trails to it.   Use good discretion and I don't anticipate a problem. 

ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures

I understand what you are saying and understand completely. Using PUBLIC land was not the best example of your theory. Hunters have no control on public land and there fore no bait of any kind should be allowed to be placed there. My original question was how far do I have to be away from a neighbors feeding station? What's so hard about that?

ORIGINAL: RSB

ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures

Whats wrong with a set distance? Just another vague law................

First of all having a distance a hunter has to be from bait is simply making bait legal and I assure you it would not be the good thing some hunters think. The day they set a distance any hunter will be able to shut down large areas of their favorite hunting grounds to all other hunters.
 
Say they make the distance 200 yards, and I don’t care if the law says visible of not, the first thing I will do is sight my rifle in for 225 yards. Then I will head out to my favorite areas of the game lands and place bait in a circular fashion 225 yards around my where I want to post. I will then go out another 175 from that circle and place bait in another larger circle. At that point I will have affectively shut down a huge area of the game lands to all hunters but me. Then if any other hunter moves to within 400 yards in any direction of my spot I can just go tell them they are hunting too close to bait and they will have to move on. If they refuse to move on they will be in violation.
 
Now just think about how many of a hunter’s favorite hunting areas they could shut down to all other hunters.
 
Do you see why there is not set distance and why it really is best to let it to officer judgment with the court making the real decision based on the totality of the factors concerning the individual cases?
 
R.S. Bodenhorn

 
Once again there is no set distance. The legal distance it is based on the animal being hunted and their home range, trails leading to and from the bait, the totality of the entire topography of the area and a host of other possible factors that might or might not be relevant for that area and species being hunted.
 
Only the local WCO could provide that answer for each area once they have an opportunity to look at the scene, situation and other factors as listed above.
 
As for your public land comment are you suggesting that people on private should be allowed to hunt over bait but public land hunters shouldn’t?
 
R.S. Bodenhorn

I have hunted other states that the law on baiting was very clear and WV where baiting is allowed. In my 6 years of hunting WV I only seen bait in the woods once. I choose not to hunt over bait but saw no problems with it. I can say this they had more respect for their fish and game then we have here.I also never herd about their fish and game being sued for $33 million from illegal action from their fish and game like here. I think the PGC likes confusion. I think they need to do a major overhaul and reorganize. They are like money hungry politicians only looking out for what benefits them $$$. I never had a state cop pull me over just to check my driver license but had a WCO stop me many times and check my license for no reason. A lot are sneaky and dirty and try to find a violation. Their hate club continues to grow. The PGC can push over timber and bulldoze a road to put in a gas well. The gas company can use the road and the WCO's and deputies use the road as well. A handicapped person can not get permission to retrieve a deer by using the road for which his license payed for, he must drag it out. Whats wrong with this picture. What's my beef? Should I continue?

I GUESS WE CAN EXPECT THIS KINDA OF THING ? SHOULD I LIST MORE????

A 22-page civil lawsuit on behalf of Charles Foster against PA Game and Fish Commission personnel is sitting on the corner of my desk. It was filed October 14, 2004. You should remember the "Charles Foster Story", a column I wrote quite a few months ago. It was such an outrageous story that a few found it hard to believe that such a debacle could happen anywhere in the US.

Please allow me to refresh your memory. Charlie Foster was a "wanted man" for allegedly illegally killing a deer. A deer carcass was found amongst a pile of trash alongside the road. PGC law enforcement believed Charlie was the murderer. The PGC secured a search warrant to search Foster’s home. They showed up with Fish Commission personnel on a Sunday afternoon in the middle of Charlie Foster’s Christening party for his three children. They pushed Charlie’s mother into a concrete wall, hit his wife with a flashlight and forced Charlie to take his pants off in front of 20 people. They "house arrested" everyone detaining all in the Foster living room. They searched Charlie’s house and an additional home (Charlie’s mother’s house) on the property, which may not have been part of the search warrant.

There are many questions unanswered in regard to the search warrant because Charlie never saw the warrant. PGC WCO George Hinkle handled Charlie Foster’s concerns about legality when Hinkle arrived at Charlie’s home. "We are the PA Game Commission, we don’t need a search warrant" were Hinkle’s infamous words. Later PGC WCO Darren David confirmed the PGC’s law enforcement mentality when Charlie asked again to see a warrant. "I don’t need a f-----g search warrant. I’ll show you the f-----g search warrant when I’m good and ready to show you the f-----g search warrant". Obviously, the PGC has some real classy and knowledgeable individuals working for them with a full grasp of Constitutional law.

Levin, Fishbein, Sedran and Berman, 501 Walnut Street, Suite 500, Philadelphia PA are the attorneys handling this case for Charles Foster. The Co-council in the matter is Elmer Robert Keach III, 74 Church Street, Hagaman, NY. Attorney Keach prepared the document sitting on my desk. He specializes in civil liberty cases.

PGC law enforcement personnel named in the suit are WCO’s Darren David, George Hinkle, Linda McCafferty, Frederick Merluzzi and the retired PGC Regional Supervisor Barry Moore. Mr. Moore was in charge of this cast of characters at the time of the debacle. Matt Viskowski, a PFBC WCO was also named.

Of special concern is the fact that PGC Commission President Russ Schleiden of Centre Hall was also sued. On April 9, 2004 Charlie Foster tried to bring his grievances before a PGC Board of Commissioners meeting. Commission President Russ Schleiden gaveled Mr. Foster stating "it was not the right time and place for this kind of talk". Schleiden, in reality, severely violated Charlie Foster’s First Amendment rights. It was a public meeting discussing the actions of a government agency. We should demand the resignation of Russ Schleiden without delay or remorse.

The compensatory damages requested against most of the above are $5 million dollars with $1 million dollars being sought in punitive damages against almost all of them. The grand total is $33 million dollars. Unfortunately, the cost of embarrassment to the PGC for becoming involved in yet another massive legal case is immeasurable. I suggest you get a copy of this complaint. It is an easy read and will take the sting out of your disappointing deer season by adding some levity to your life.

Of course, the bigger issue in all of this is the number of serious lawsuits against the PGC at any given time. It is a clear indication of the lack of leadership, direction and control by the PGC management. The PGC has become a major embarrassment to this state.