Here's my E-mail to the law enforcement head a littlew while ago.. I'm off to work now ==

Mr Palmer..

I wanted to personally thank you for helping xxxxxxxxxxxxx give me insight into the law about field tips to unload a crossbow in a quiver while deer hunting..
It is a HOT topic on several internet sites this week... legal or not ??

I supplied the info that xxxxxxx forwarded to me and I assured him several of us are going to be knocking on the "BOC doors" to get a clear understanding on this and to have it made legal for unloading a crossbow to have one in your possession.

It is a VERY important issue...

crossbow manufactures suggest a hunter NEVER travel with a cocked crossbow... most require firing the bow to unload it... they suggest using a field tip to do that and fire it into soft ground..

If for no other reason than safety I would hope the PGC would support that suggestion...


I tried using a broadhead to unload and all that did was when I pulled it out of the ground the blades were gone, now it too was no better than a field tip.

others have suggested having a broadhead on the bolt ..then when I finish hunting take the broadhead off put on a field tip and unloaded .. then switch back and put the field tip in my pocket.. sounds great except.. it's like asking to cut ones finger while doing that switching back and forth in the woods..

I am new to the world of crossbows and supported them being included in archery season.. It allows me at 65 to continue to enjoy whitetail hunting in better weather than in rifle season usually...The power in a crossbow is very impressive and I can not image an accident while carrying one loaded...

My personal problem is ==

one local WCO states he will not charge anyone for having a field tip to unload a crossbow ... BUT I do not hunt his district... the other local WCO has told me I can not have a field tip while deer hunting PERIOD... compound or crossbow..

I thank you for the blunt tip suggestion and will do just that, and if charged.. I guess I'll see him in court ..

can't believe I just said that.... never in 65 years have I dreamed of doing something that would have me end up in a court ?????


Thank You for you time
Sincerely,

Dave Stotler
"Dr. Trout"
http://outdoorworld.proboards.com

This is the answer I got directly from Harrisburg this morning. And while the information was passed from the pgc to a commissioner to me, I am not permitted to print the source's name. Let me say that there is no higher authority regarding game law....


"The answer to the first question is yes, field tips are technically prohibited from being in possession while big game hunting because the definition of hunt in T-34 102 includes a very broad definition of hunting as calling, stalking, lying in wait, etc. . While I believe most WCO’s would not cite anyone for that technical violation without some indication that the field tip was being used to illegally hunt big game with, most WCO’s are also cautious in answering a legal question and will provide the technically legal correct answer. Some WCO’s may answer the question from their personal perspective that they would not enforce that technicality if they believed the field tip bolt was only being used for unloading, however possession of one while hunting big game is a technical violation.



In regards to the question on baiting there are several factors used to determine what area may be posted, if we decide to post an area. The primary determination is what is called the “zone of influence” of the bait. This is a variable determination based on factual determinations as to what species is involved, how much evidence of attraction and habituation to the area there is, what the surrounding terrain and habitat conditions are, how much bait is or has been placed and how long it has been there, etc.. We use the same basic standards as the USFWS does in determining the “zone of influence”. Basically however, a hard line could be drawn that any bait in a given area could influence any animal within it’s home range based on significant research findings to that effect. Obviously home ranges of bear is vastly different from the home range of deer or Turkey and therefore there may be different “zones of influence” as to which species the hunting activity to be prohibited by posting is targeting. Deer is usually the species involved and our research in PA> indicates an average influence range of 1100 meters, but we often post far less than that based upon the factual determinations listed above."

I'm at work and can not get to my e-mails..

I am so happy to see others are still "carrying the torch" forward

THANK YOU !!!

while many of us disagree on deer subjects it is satisfying to see we can come together if necessary !!!!

Another, never ending chapter in the vague laws of the PGC. Is it illegal to carry a broadhead while small game hunting with a bow? Turkey is big game. What type of head is legal for turkey ? Has anyone ever got the same answer from multiple WCO's. I haven't. This agency needs help !!!

There is a bit of truth to that statement. Back in the seventies I knew two expert target archers who did just that. They would head shoot their deer with field points because they felt they were more accurate and would drop the deer in their tracks.Their skill level was waaay above mine. I know they killed some, if they crippled any they never admitted it.

Whats the difference between shooting a deer or a turkey with a bow? They are both big game. What is a legal head for turkey?

S-10, still valid today because I ain't carrying no stinkin' rangefinder in the woods with me! :-)
 
I'll continue to carry a field tip with me to stump shoot, etc. and take my chances.  If it is not nocked while I am on stand, I am not hunting with it.  Similarly, archers, or for that matter, rifle hunters, don't get fined for hunting after hours when they are walking to their stands in the pre-dawn darkness or after last light in the evenings because in the eyes of "most" reasonable, level headed, intelligent WCOs, they are not "physically" hunting because an arrow is not nocked (or the gun is not loaded).  How can I be illegally hunting with a field or blunt tipped arrow if it is not nocked? 
 
If the law stated above would specifically state "possession of a non-broadhead tipped arrow while hunting big game" was illegal, then I would stop carrying them. You wouldn't even need a lawyer to fight this one at the district magistrate, IMO. 
 
PS - Does anyone have verifiable proof of someone getting pinched for this?  Not "the WCO told me" or I heard from so and so.  I have always heard these rumors but never saw a citation someone got for this.

+1000 brother.Notice how they ignore my last two questions. It's all Bull****!!

Shouldn't be up to the WCO to make that determination...
The Law is the law...If the law sucks change it...
Leaving it to the discretion of the WCO is where they get into so much trouble..
The WCO should not be allowed to choose what they deem as good laws and bad. They were hired to uphold the Game Code verbatim Not pick and choose and only enforce what they choose...

There are allways circumstances Bings, and legitament reasons for sidesteping the law.
I could rattle off many examples, more so with general laws than game laws.

on page 35 it gives the requirements for Arms & Ammunitions that are legal for turkey using a bow/crossbow.. it plainly states than the broad head has to be of a cutting edge design.. a field tip has no cutting edges...

I image since a turkey is smaller than a deer that is why there is not width requirement on the broad head ... just that it has to have a cutting edge...

What is it that you think is vague about the regulations concerning broad heads for turkeys? It seems perfectly clear to me and is exactly the same as required for deer hunting.
 
§ 141.45. Turkey.

 (a)  Fall turkey season. 

   (1)  Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt turkey during the fall turkey season with any of the following devices: 

     (i)   A manually operated centerfire, rimfire or muzzleloading firearm using single-projectile ammunition, except as otherwise prohibited in paragraph (2)(i). 

     (ii)   A manually operated or semiautomatic, centerfire shotgun or muzzleloading shotgun using shot ammunition no larger than #4 lead, #4 Bismuth/tin or #2 steel. 

     (iii)   A bow and arrow. A bow must have a peak draw weight of at least 35 pounds. An arrow must be equipped with a broadhead that has an outside diameter or width of at least 7/8 inch with at least two cutting edges located on the same plane throughout the length of the cutting surface, and may not exceed 3 inches in length. 

     (iv)   A crossbow and bolt. A crossbow must have a peak draw weight of at least 125 pounds. A bolt must be equipped with a broadhead that has an outside diameter or width of at least 7/8 inch with at least two cutting edges located on the same plane throughout the length of the cutting surface, and may not exceed 3 inches in length. 

 (b)  Spring turkey season. 

   (1)  Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt turkey during the spring turkey season with any of the following devices: 

     (i)   A manually operated or semiautomatic, centerfire shotgun or muzzleloading shotgun using shot ammunition no larger than #4 lead, #4 Bismuth/tin or #2 steel. 

     (ii)   A bow and arrow as permitted under subsection (a)(1)(iii). 

     (iii)   A crossbow and bolt as permitted under subsection (a)(1)(iv).

The entire section can be found here.

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chapter141/chap141toc.html  
 
 R.S. Bodenhorn

Outdoor adventure....


The digest we get with our hunting license is a summary of the basic rules , regs, etc for hunting... the REAL rules, etc are in the Pa Game and Wildlife Code Book.. title 34...
which RSB just supplied a link to it is the "bible"... what we get is a snippet or the basics...

Lots of times elected officials have the Title 34 book and you may be able to get one from them for your personal use...

by Dr Trout: you already know that the distance is a totally discretionary thing for the WCO .. there is NOTHING "in stone

post edited by Outdoor Adventures - 2010/10/30 00:54:26

ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures

My point exactly !! Too many laws of this kind. I don't like to play the guessing game when I hunt. Reporting such a manner only provokes the landowner and causes more conflict between him and the neighbors. Set a distance, plain and simple. Why should a judge decide?

Because a judge's job is to decide. Many laws are written such that a judge decides some aspect of the fine/punishment. Thats why we have judges.

If you don't want to report it, then it must not really that big of an issue to you.