dpms

anzomcik
Please with all of this quoting of "trophy deer behind every tree"  could i see a report, screen shot, or video of that actually being said by the PGC or a Biologist.

 
Gary Alt did say the we would have "more and bigger bucks" because of ARs. That simply cannot occur if you reduce the deer herd at the same time. That was the bait to gain support for HR. We have less bucks now in this state than we did 20 years ago. But the bucks we do have now are slightly older on average than at that time. That is all that has changed.

That’s not the same as “behind every tree” which seems to be the go to quote that never happened.


Dar, you hit all the bullet points of a trophy class buck. Where we differ is age perspective. You can have genetics to reach 600” but if you can’t make it past your first set of antlers you will never reach that. With everything in that deers favor it can’t grow a big rack if he is dead.

Are u saying the trophy’s from years ago were 1.5yo bucks with there first set of antlers?

anzomcik
Are u saying the trophy’s from years ago were 1.5yo bucks with there first set of antlers?

No , just saying somehow bigger bucks did survive even with no AR's and way more hunters...so there must be more to it like DarDys said. Just having AR's has proved no big gain or change to me.
 

r3g3
Could you folks see fewer bucks because there is a doe season the likes of which never existed way back.
How many of those killed 'doe' are buttons and how many male deer psm now are alive compared to that same past time.
Figure the button kill rate over 3 or 4 years-that's a lot of potential legal bucks gonzo- not to mention fewer real doe reproducing more bucks.
Same here in Ct- can take more than a dozen deer a year if your that kind of ---'hunter'.
Of course the old   PA one and done buck season with a 2 day doe season left a lot more in the system
Then go we out and wonder where they heck they all went.

I totally agree, but the Game Commish controls that whole scenario with antlerless permits . We sacrificed with accepting lower doe kills years ago to build the heard up ,now the GC passes out doe permits like Halloween candy. Some hunters shoot 3 deer or more a year because the GC allows it. I don't blame one hunter, they are doing what is legal and allowed. Apparently the GC feels they are right and are not obligated to listen to hunters concerns about deer harvest numbers or sightings for reasons unknown. 

CAPTAIN HOOK

anzomcik
Are u saying the trophy’s from years ago were 1.5yo bucks with there first set of antlers?

No , just saying somehow bigger bucks did survive even with no AR's and way more hunters...so there must be more to it like DarDys said. Just having AR's has proved no big gain or change to me.

I do not think any one is saying that didn’t happen. I do feel it’s short sited to think that AR are not working based on one persons experience. Of the top 15 buck kills in the 4 category typ archery typ rifle, non typ archery non typ rifle almost half are from 2003 and after. So in 15 years the state put not quite half its biggest buck up there. The state records have been broke twice in the last couple years

To answer when they started it was 2002

Panfisher

CAPTAIN HOOK
I have a bad memory for time and names....what year did the AR's start ?

2002 I think.

One way to change this situation was implementation ofantler restrictions. In 2002, the Pennsylvania Game Commission changed the antler restriction to harvest an antlered deer. Prior to 2002, the antler restriction was 2 points to an antler or a spike at least 3 inches in length.

Antler Restrictions Are They Working - Game Commission - PA.gov&nbsp www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/WildlifeSpecies/.../AntlerRestrictionsAreTheyWorking.aspx



"JUST ASK THEM"  
 
 
 
 
5 things you didn't know about 2017 Pa. deer hunting season - The ...www.mcall.com/.../mc-spt-outdoors-pennsylvania-deer-hunting-20171120-story.html 

Nov 20, 2017 - “Older, bigger-racked bucks are more of the norm in the forests of Pennsylvania than they have been for at least a couple decades,” said PGC Deer and Elk Section Supervisor Chris Rosenberry. “There's no doubt antler restrictions paved the way. It was a big step forward 15 years ago, and today we're ...



 


 
 


 

Quote ...."After 6 years, APRs are a success. They have increased buck survival and the buck age structure. They have maintained strong support from hunters. And Pennsylvania hunters are experiencing the same levels of success to which they are accustomed."
 
Same levels of success too !
 
I got to find a new hunting area  ! Wonder if the deer processors agree with those figures? 

anzomcik
That’s not the same as “behind every tree” which seems to be the go to quote that never happened.

 
Very true. I was just pointing out what he actually did say was that we would have more bucks which is simply impossible after herd reduction. It was the bait to sell HR. 

anzomcik

CAPTAIN HOOK

anzomcik
Are u saying the trophy’s from years ago were 1.5yo bucks with there first set of antlers?

No , just saying somehow bigger bucks did survive even with no AR's and way more hunters...so there must be more to it like DarDys said. Just having AR's has proved no big gain or change to me.

I do not think any one is saying that didn’t happen. I do feel it’s short sited to think that AR are not working based on one persons experience. Of the top 15 buck kills in the 4 category typ archery typ rifle, non typ archery non typ rifle almost half are from 2003 and after. So in 15 years the state put not quite half its biggest buck up there. The state records have been broke twice in the last couple years

To answer when they started it was 2002

Bad use of data. Could it be that before 2003, antlers made the deer legal and after that point, antlers made the deer?

No one I personally know over the age of 30 or so ever had a deer measured and it wasn’t because they didn’t have big deer, because they did. It was because they weren’t looking for recognition, other than they got a “nice” buck and then it was to friends and family, not the general public or the world. It was because they were not beat over the head by TV and YouTube that puts score or age as an all important criteria.

So as hunters were told that it was now important in order to be a hunter’s hunter to have a deer scored in some sort of wiener measuring contest, more of them got scored, hence more made the record book.

Of interesting note, a former coworker’s farm in Huntindon County bordered a “hunting club.” This club, which comprised 800 acres of various habitat, was owned by a law firm from Philly, although they did take on members from all walks of life, as long as there was an opening (membership was capped) and they had the membership dues (which was $1,000 per year).

The club had a full-time resident “game keeper” who planted and maintained food plots; cut trails; kept up the stands; worked the trail cameras; etc. The sole purpose was to provide the best possible conditions conducive to big bucks.

All hunting was strictly controlled. Hunters were only permitted to hunt from approved stands and in fact they were transported to those stands by the game keeper and had to remain there until retrieved by the game keeper. If a deer was killed, they called (or radioed) the game keeper, but remained in stand.

Antler restrictions were eight points or better and at least 16 inches wide (although most members held out for 18 inches or better). Doe harvest was restricted to the numbers prescribed by their QDM consultant.

When I last had contact with this former coworker (2009) the club had been practicing this type of deer management for 15 years, so well before PGC AR and HR. What my former coworker did for the club as a neighbor, was to do all their butchering if harvested deer. So he got to lay hands on every last deer they killed.

The game keeper kept records of every deer killed that included antler measurements, field dressed weight, meat yield, guesstimated age (they looked at teeth, but didn’t send them out for testing), date shot, location, etc.

In the 15 years of the program, under ideal conditions, with AR and HR practices stricter than the PGC programs, the average increase in antler size from Year 1 to Year 15 was six inches in total measurement. The average increase in field dressed weight for bucks was less than five pounds.

One has to question if those are the results on strictly controlled private land, what were the increases on public ground beyond that demonstrated between a 1.5 year-old, which wasn’t legal st that point in its life, and the same deer as a 2.5 when it was legal.

dardys
 
So as hunters were told that it was now important in order to be a hunter’s hunter to have a deer scored in some sort of wiener measuring contest, more of them got scored, hence more made the record book. 
 

 
 
  quote of the year!!! 🏆🏆🏆

Entry Materials:

The following materials are to be submitted to the Club’s headquarters for each animal being entered into the Records Program:

• Original scoring form, completed by the official measurer (either P&Y or B&C)
• Fair Chase Affidavit, completed and signed by the bowhunter and signed by a witness
• Three (3) photographs of the antlers, horns or skull (a view from the front, a view from the left and a view from the right)
• A field photo (of the animal and the hunter), if available
• $35.00 recording fee, payable to the Pope and Young Club

* There is no time limit to when an animal can be measured and submitted for entry into the Records Program.

Recognition Plaques for Record Book Animals

Once an animal has been entered into the Pope and Young Club Records Program, you can honor your entry with any of these exceptional looking Pope and Young Club Recognition Plaques.


To order: Call P&Y Headquarters (507-867-4144) between 8AM and 4:30PM (Central) weekdays and staff will help you with your orders. To ensure accuracy, we’ll need the species, exact score, and hunter’s name for each plaque ordered. Allow at least 3 weeks for production and shipping.
 
ENGRAVED CERTIFICATE PLAQUE – Features the artwork and information from the Club’s 
standard record book certificate laser-engraved, with burn accents on a 9” x 12” premium 
red alder plaque. Custom-made by a fellow Pope & Young Club member.
Price: $75.00
Shipping: Included 
ENGRAVED SCORING CHART PLAQUE – Premium red alder plaque, 9” x 12”, displays the 
entire completed scoring chart for your record book animal (all the measurements and information), 
laser-engraved with burn accents. Custom-made by a fellow Pope & Young Club member.
Price: $75.00
Shipping: Included 
LAMINATED CERTIFICATE PLAQUE – Featuring the venerable Pope & Young Club record book
certificate on a classy 11.5” x 14” burl wood laminate plaque with gold foil bevel and accents. 
Artwork and listed information is identical to the Club’s standard record book certificate that was 
designed by Fred Bear, himself, in the 1970s.
 
Price: $60.00
Shipping: Included
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
I have a Bear Compound Bow designed by Fred Bear, I think you can still read his autograph.  Still using it (not this year, couldn't practice).  Shot a few deer with it too, not in the past 15 years, that was before ARs. 

If what many are saying the reason they quite hunting was largely due to AR HR, mixed with greatly reducing the 1.5yo deer bring killed by not being legal... so AR HR didn’t help? Is that what your saying?

anzomcik
You may be surprised to learn that the B&C scoring system was founded to measure the quality of habitat of an area. For example say a unit held a average of 5 B&C bucks killed per year, then for a handful of years it would hold an average of 1.5 B&C it will show that something has happened to the area and researchers can try to find out what impacted the herd. Yes it does score the animal but it is really meant to monitor the environment and the changes that occure. 
 
If you think that the last 15 years of collection comprising 45% of the top entries over the past 90 years as "Bad data" please show me another set of data (not some one complaining) showing other wise. I would agree deer are left off the list but you cant believe that its only on the one side, so to just throw out a system of measuring is just a form of denial that deer are getting older. Also one could make the argument that shooting a big buck prior to AR would draw attention, especially from a stud, human nature has not changed and people want to show off a special deer. 
 
Did the Game keeper age the deer?
 
What was the average score of the deer shot? It should be known if he knew the average changed 6" (which is a good gain if you ask me on a already managed tract of land)
 
I assume this was not high fence?
 
So 800 acres is big land, but not big enough to have a sizable deer population living solely on it. So  most would move on and off the property, Would you agree?
 
What happened to the success ratio?
 
 
 
 
 

I’ll try to answer the questions posed.

With regard to B&C being used as a habitat measure, yes I was aware of that. But that function has changed over time, just like cell phones used to be primarily used for making non land line calls. Now, scoring a deer is some sort of bragging deal among those who have been told that it is important. First it was actually killing a buck (I don’t recall the scarcity if them, but my Dad who was born in 1924 often told about how big a deal it was as a kid to find a deer track). Then it was the number of points (can you hang a ring in it), especially for ad how buck pools. From there it went to spread. Next was age (the outdoor writer I was hunting with yesterday had the best quote on deer age — “I’m not out there to celebrate how old a deer is, I’m out there to prevent them from having another birthday”). Now it is score.

The reason the data is bad is quite simple — there is no way to understand how many deer that qualify for record book status actually get measured. I postulate that before 2000, the rate of potential record book deer getting actually measured wax rather low, or at least lower, than post 2000. Why? No one cared. If it wasn’t going to be THE state record, it wasn’t worth the time or effort. Heck, many potential record book deer probably never even had a photo taken.

Now, in the age of social media, and to some extent, self promotion, if a deer is even close, photos of it are everywhere and there is a good chance it might get measured.

Because there is no way to understand the meUring rate, it is bad data to use because that rate may have (almost assuredly has)changed over time.

With regard to did the club game keeper age the deer, the answer is yes and no. It is my understanding that they looked at teeth, but did not send them out for testing. Most of the aging guesstimates would have been related to being on the property constantly and knowing which deer were seen for how long, in addition to looking at the teeth (which loses reliability at 3.5). Their guesstimate was most deer killed at the club were 3.5 or 4,5. It was rare if a 2.5 met their minimum criteria.

As for six inches of additional score being a lot, yes and know. If it puts it over the top for some scoring category, it is. If it were 100 going to 106, nobody cares. And when moved off the backdrop of a private club like this, it probably means less. Ask the average PA hunter if they would rather kill a buck 7 out of 10 years or kill a buck that is six inches bigger less than 2 out of ten years and see what the answer is. Unless they are trophy hunters with all the time in the world to hunt or the aren’t very good hunters (if I’m not going to kill one any way, it might as well be a big one I don’t kill types), the resounding answer will be you can’t eat the antlers.

As for the high fence question, not the 800 acres was not fenced, so yes, deer could come and go if they wanted to do so. While the surrounding properties, ranging in size from about 100 acres to close to the same size, were not under the strict rules of the club, they were pretty selective in what they did as well with regard to harvest.

In addition, while deer could leave the property, there was little reason, except the rut, for them to do so. There was abundant food and water, plus sanctuary areas. A deer could be very happy libingbthere. But the bigger question becomes, if 800 acres is big enough to st lest have some impact on deer management, what size is big enuogh? Further, if 800 acres (for perspective, that is 1/10 the size of Raystown lake from the breast to Weaver Falls boat launch) isn’t big enough, what chance does someone with 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, 200 acres have of impacting their deer?

I can’t give success ratio, because I don’t know. I did ask andbit was a fairly vague answer (although probably truthful) that some years were better than others.

anzomcik
 
I still would like to see actual data showing that AR are not helping to make a healthier age structure. I did a lot of looking and read some very interesting reports. So if anyone has a report please share it with me, and an old cherished hunting story (while is entertaining) isn't quantified data
 
Ok I don't expect to change anyone's minds, we do this every year. I get your baseline for hunting is rooted earlier than mine, so we have different expectations, and frustrations. We are all in the same boat, I do enjoy these discussions and at times they get out of hand. I want to believe that both sides are coming from a good place.

 
 
Real time information gathered from actual field experience by hundreds of lifetime hunters over, a half of a century, is only "entertaining" yet a few graduates from Penn State sitting behind a computer, for a decade, produce actual data to prove AR is working????  I'll be darned!!!
 
Considering other changes with hunting regulations, over the past decade in PA;  not likely I'm gonna believe numbers on a paper, coming from the PENN STATE UNIVERSITY GAME COMMISSION.
 
But that's just me being me..... and getting old.
 
Enjoy those P & Y and B & C record plaques!!!
 
 

anzomcik


Look on the bright side, at least at your age you may only have a couple years left of hunting before you can quite and no one will blame you. It’s terrible the GC forces you guy to do something you hate...

 
[snicker] Truth sting a little did it???  The data you reference wasn't taken 30-50 years 'ago' the data we reference was taken "real time" in the field 'over' the last 50 years'. 
 
As for time I have left to hunt, that will remain to be seen, however the years spent hunting does bring so many wonderful memories and I don't need my name in a record book, a bought and paid for plaque or, animal head(s) hanging on my wall to remind me of my wonderful time hunting the Pennsylvania Wilds.   BTW it's not the PGC 'forcing us' to do something we hate, most if not all still have a passion and love of the hunt.  The problem is, the PGC can not force us (like the handful of believers), to swallow their crap.
 
Don't let the opinion(s) of the older generation ruin your day.  Look at the bright side, you can look at your animals and plaques hanging on the wall and thanks to the PGC, you didn't have to hunt to put them there.