Helpful ReplyAgain??

Page: < 1234 > Showing page 2 of 4
Author
BeenThereDoneThat.
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 11939
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2014/05/14 07:30:39
  • Location: A Field or A Float
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/07 08:57:52 (permalink)
Yep....... Gary Alt had an idea too.
 
 
Here is a story that should give some inspiration...........
 
Mississippi woman bags deer ahead of her 100th birthday~http://www.foxnews.com/gr...er-100th-birthday.html
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2018/01/07 08:59:39

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#31
DarDys
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 4734
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2009/11/13 08:46:21
  • Location: Duncansville, PA
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/07 09:46:44 (permalink)
While this may seem counter to what many would believe to be my stance on this idea (and so far that is all it is until it makes it onto a netting agenda), I really don’t care one way or the other, but if my hand were forced, I would be in favor of it.

The impact on the heard, due to antler restrictions, would probably be very minimal as compared with if AR were done away with as many opposing the second tag idea seem to be a proponent of. (For the record, I am not for AR.)

I don’t care that it is a money maker. The PGC needs to find money somewhere to cover administrative costs (approximately 80% of their budget) and legacy costs before they can do any other projects. While I would like to see the money on projects spent differently (the wild pheasant study, buck hunter success study using collared deer, and a dozen non-game bird biologists comes to mind), those can only be changed by having better oversight by the commissioners.

Would I put in for the extra tag? Probably. My rationale is simple — I like to eat venison and venison byproducts, but I would like to leave the does untouched until after the rut so they can be used as an attractant. By having the extra buck tag, I could, theoretically, shoot a legal buck, then, if I choose to do so, hunt for a big buck for the remaining seasons. It is doubtful I would be successful, but at least the opportunity would be there.

All that being written, again, it doesn’t matter to me, mainly because in the scheme of things that the PGC has done over the last few decades, this is pretty minor on the scale of “what in the Sam Houston were they thinking.”

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#32
BeenThereDoneThat.
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 11939
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2014/05/14 07:30:39
  • Location: A Field or A Float
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/07 10:24:46 (permalink)
It wasn't with their brain.......

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#33
CAPTAIN HOOK
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 2384
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2002/09/28 22:31:08
  • Location: N.W. Pa.
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/07 10:43:52 (permalink)
Funny how for over forty years or more barely any rules and regulations changed on hunting seasons starts and limits. Now they change almost yearly. Don't even get a book now!
 I remember back when Pa. boasted nearly one million hunters only second to Texas! Now ? You tell me how hilarious these comments are? The GC purposely creates antler restrictions to limit buck kills, now they ponder printing out buck bonus tags ......nice way to thank all the hunters that passed on bucks over the years. 1A had a four point restriction for years while the rest of the state was 3 , that went over great here !...lol  What's next to attract hunters they have lost or continue to loose ?
 
I like the casino idea at GL sites ! Gone to need bigger parking lots.
#34
anzomcik
Expert Angler
  • Total Posts : 715
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2007/07/31 05:16:41
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/07 10:55:52 (permalink)
Pa did AR not to limit the total buck kill, but to limit the 1.5 yo bucks killed.

It’s laughable to pin reduced hunter numbers solely on game laws. Because we all know every other varibable has stayed the same.

The comments on hunting shows are hilarious with hearing the rational on the Reason not in PA
#35
CAPTAIN HOOK
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 2384
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2002/09/28 22:31:08
  • Location: N.W. Pa.
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/07 12:54:01 (permalink)
Yes Pa. antler restrictions did in fact limit "total buck" kills they admitted to that. I don't have the stats but I'd love to see the drop in numbers of bucks harvested those years as compared to pre restrictions. When hunters stand in the woods not being able to shoot at bucks smaller than 8 points (1A then / now 3 up ) I guess they find that encouraging to keep deer hunting? I sure didn't....I believe when hunting one wants to shoot at game not just look and carry a gun around, especially when you are seeing bucks but can't shoot! It should be the discretion of the hunter to pass or shoot at bucks of lesser antler tine numbers. 
 
They create a surplus with restrictions now want to cash in on it.....that's laughable...no that's actually sad.
 
When's the last time you seen a "trophy" deer hunting show filmed in Pa. ? Not enough Pa. private land to raise those big show off bucks like out west or Texas... that's actually good....just plain hunting facts.
#36
anzomcik
Expert Angler
  • Total Posts : 715
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2007/07/31 05:16:41
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/07 13:02:06 (permalink)
How did they make a surplus of bucks when there are “no more deer”

I think we are the same page in the hunting shows in pa, if you read back on some peoples comments you may see why I see it laughable unless I’m not reading it the tone the author wrote it.
#37
anzomcik
Expert Angler
  • Total Posts : 715
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2007/07/31 05:16:41
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/07 13:27:10 (permalink)
I looked up the deer numbers and your right there was a decrease in kills. However I can’t find the license sales to compare success rate for those prior years of AR. Because if you sell 1 million tags you expect more kills, or am I thinking backwards?

Could an ageing population explain less tags sold? I would think so.

I did find license sales for 2006-2016. How can it have a 10% drop in sales but maintain average number of buck kills over those same years? So hunter success is increasing, less hunters killing same number of deer.
#38
BeenThereDoneThat.
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 11939
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2014/05/14 07:30:39
  • Location: A Field or A Float
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/07 19:48:55 (permalink)
anzomcik
How did they make a surplus of bucks when there are “no more deer”

I think we are the same page in the hunting shows in pa, if you read back on some peoples comments you may see why I see it laughable unless I’m not reading it the tone the author wrote it.

 
 
       But perhaps I am correct...... this time.

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#39
anzomcik
Expert Angler
  • Total Posts : 715
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2007/07/31 05:16:41
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/08 01:08:31 (permalink)
I was pointing out your contridiction.
#40
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3416
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/08 10:39:52 (permalink)
CAPTAIN HOOK
Yes Pa. antler restrictions did in fact limit "total buck" kills they admitted to that. I don't have the stats but I'd love to see the drop in numbers of bucks harvested those years as compared to pre restrictions.

 
The PGC expected ARs to limit the buck kill the first year of implementation. After the first year, everything becomes equal again. The rifle buck kill has been edging down as less rifle hunt. 
 
When hunters stand in the woods not being able to shoot at bucks smaller than 8 points (1A then / now 3 up ) I guess they find that encouraging to keep deer hunting? I sure didn't....I believe when hunting one wants to shoot at game not just look and carry a gun around, especially when you are seeing bucks but can't shoot! It should be the discretion of the hunter to pass or shoot at bucks of lesser antler tine numbers.

 
After the first year, the great majority of those passed sub legal bucks were now legal and out there for harvest. The real issue is there are less bucks total in the herd due to HR. That is why hunters may be seeing less bucks and becoming turned off. It has nothing to do with ARs but HRs that reduced the total population. 
 
 




My rifle is a black rifle
#41
BeenThereDoneThat.
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 11939
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2014/05/14 07:30:39
  • Location: A Field or A Float
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/08 11:15:17 (permalink)
anzomcik
I was pointing out your contridiction.



Moi.....!! Contradict myself, whyyyy I'll just let you know, I represent that remark!

So tell us, how could the PGC acquire free advertisement to bring in more out of state money? The old saying, "the best advertising is by word of mouth" sure ain't been working, as proven by less and less hunters in the woods.

But OK, how about this theory? Now that the PGC has "monster bucks" hiding behind every tree, the commissioners are looking for a way that will legally allow them to kill several Pope & Young or Boone & Crockett wall hangers a year. So really, all these changes over the years, has been to benefit the game commissioners and their children.

I mean, there's gotta be a reason for all these rule changes. We know it's not about "herd reduction". Right?😏
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2018/01/08 11:16:32

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#42
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3416
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/08 11:49:28 (permalink)
BeenThereDoneThat.
I mean, there's gotta be a reason for all these rule changes. We know it's not about "herd reduction". Right?😏



 
Much like any govt entity, they are trying to squeeze every last drop of oil from the olive. What is plaguing our state govt and all of its agencies is the ongoing pension crisis. Our elected officials won't make hard decisions and reform pensions in this state as the public unions are powerful and the representatives benefit from the same pensions. 
 
The political system is rigged in this state to prevent change. The powerful parties control what candidates have any shot of winning. And so it goes. On and on again and the people of this commonwealth are drowning in taxes and fees.  

My rifle is a black rifle
#43
r3g3
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 2813
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2014/03/24 16:42:10
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/08 12:43:38 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby BeenThereDoneThat. 2018/01/08 13:00:40
Pensions- govt and pvt- are generally the result of negotiated contracts .
Both sides have to kick in a required amount to make it work over time.
Without the pension the contracts would most likely have produced higher wages as contracts are based on the total of all amoluments.
Historically the Govt and far too many pvt entities never kicked in their part leaving huge unfunded liabilities.
All while workers kept on working and having their part taken from the check each week.
Wayyyy too many govt agencies and pvt entities also contributed to the huge shortages by heavily borrowing from the pension funds to make up their other budget shortfalls.
The folks in charge now blame everyone in their past positions for the problem and  have cleverly managed a scenario where John Q blames the employees.
Kind of a Fox and Hen house thing.
 
One Govt agency I am far too familiar with even went so far as to take the employee  contributions every week for decades and put them the general fund and spent it.
Employees had to sue upon finding an unbalance fund--they won.
John Q -who enjoyed the benefits of the extra dollars in the govt budget for decades- then blamed the employees for the new contributions having to be made to make the fund eventually solvent.
 
Gotta look at the whole picture--
RANT over - but its the truth.
post edited by r3g3 - 2018/01/08 12:49:17
#44
BeenThereDoneThat.
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 11939
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2014/05/14 07:30:39
  • Location: A Field or A Float
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/08 13:19:19 (permalink)
R3 I think you might be referring to the old adage "ROBBING PETER TO PAY PAUL"  or, how the politicians buy votes?  Which should be interesting for Gov. Wolf seeing how he didn't get his tax on gas wells (but did get at the gas pumps) and there's little left to any pension plans from which to steal errr, borrow to buy votes.  Except maybe the PSER, from which the money could be taken to uphold his promise to the the teacher's unions.
 
Just like the heritage of PA hunting, the young people only know what is in it for them today, as they have no interest in yesteryear or their future.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2018/01/08 13:20:23

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#45
anzomcik
Expert Angler
  • Total Posts : 715
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2007/07/31 05:16:41
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/08 13:31:33 (permalink)
BeenThereDoneThat.
anzomcik
I was pointing out your contridiction.



Moi.....!! Contradict myself, whyyyy I'll just let you know, I represent that remark!

So tell us, how could the PGC acquire free advertisement to bring in more out of state money? The old saying, "the best advertising is by word of mouth" sure ain't been working, as proven by less and less hunters in the woods.

But OK, how about this theory? Now that the PGC has "monster bucks" hiding behind every tree, the commissioners are looking for a way that will legally allow them to kill several Pope & Young or Boone & Crockett wall hangers a year. So really, all these changes over the years, has been to benefit the game commissioners and their children.

I mean, there's gotta be a reason for all these rule changes. We know it's not about "herd reduction". Right?😏



 
easy there trigger, I posted that at around 1:30am after a long day. It wasn't meant for you. I made a mistake thinking I was talking to Hook typing half asleep. 
 
however I do not know if your serious about the two buck tags gaining the attention of TV shows, if that is serious I think thats silly.
 
 
 



#46
BeenThereDoneThat.
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 11939
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2014/05/14 07:30:39
  • Location: A Field or A Float
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/08 13:43:01 (permalink)
anzomcik



 
easy there trigger, I posted that at around 1:30am after a long day. It wasn't meant for you. I made a mistake thinking I was talking to Hook typing half asleep. 
 
however I do not know if your serious about the two buck tags gaining the attention of TV shows, if that is serious I think thats silly.
 

 
Not a problem chief, I certainly understand those long days but seriously, the TV thingy, what better way to promote "The Pennsylvania Wilds" (for free) and entice big spenders from afar?
 
Which leads me to another question regarding "Antler Restrictions";  why the need to to change from counties to WMUs?  Oh, and the sudden need to expand the Elk range from a few square miles to what it is today and, what it will be in the near future?
 
Remember, Gary Alt had an idea........... or was that a vision?
 
 








Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#47
CAPTAIN HOOK
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 2384
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2002/09/28 22:31:08
  • Location: N.W. Pa.
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/08 14:49:56 (permalink)
I wish it was that easy to say all sub legal bucks within a year are now legal the next. Wouldn't that be great !  Like I said we were under a four point restriction in 1A so that wasn't near the case here. Now it's three up so it's a little break in judging some bucks. I agree rifle season hunters have decreased fairly fast over the past 5 years or more. I won't pinpoint an exact reason, but I will say talking to a lot of rifle hunters they are not happy with the ARs. A lot have become disappointed to the point they barely go or just don't care as much.
 
 A rifle is made for longer distance shooting providing your target is legal. That's 90% of the problem seeing a buck is clear , but is it legal ?  Even though you could have had a kill shot you have to pass if you are not 100% sure. Even though I've talked to hunters who said they shoot and look later....not a good or legal method. If one hunts hard and finally sees a decent buck but can't shoot because of uncertainty it gets old fast! I'm not saying hunting should be easy, but given the Winter elements, lack of cover, dressed in bright florescent orange clothing, bucks are on super high alert in rifle season. Seeing one is tough enough but getting one to stand still and count points is a real challenge. Can't blame some rifle hunters for the frustration and not hunting as much.
 
By the way what is HR ? I'm lost on some abbreviations
 
#48
Guest
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 2852
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2012/05/17 08:04:02
  • Status: online
Re: Again?? 2018/01/08 15:08:47 (permalink)
HR is herd reduction. The huge increase in doe tag allocation back around 2001.

AR was the sizzle used to sell the steak of HR by promising P&Y bucks behind every tree.

One thing I loathe about AR is that it initially was sold as a way to increase the quality of the bucks in PA by making sure older bucks got in on the breeding. Absolutely ridiculous if you know even basic biology. A scrub 1.5 year old buck is gonna have the same genetics as he always will. A stud 1.5 year old will have the same genetics as he always will. I do believe eventually the PGC copped to lying about that.

I hate AR. But I do love venison.
#49
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3416
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/08 16:52:22 (permalink)
r3g3
Gotta look at the whole picture--
RANT over - but its the truth.



 
For sure. History has shown that defined pension plans usually end badly for the company and its employees, unless it is pubic sector since they are given special protection. In the private sector, companies fold and employees lose their pensions when the pension contracts and/or funding is mismanaged. In the public sector, the taxpayers have to foot the bill and we are at a point where the taxpayers can no longer do so. 
 
Yes, funds were mismanaged. Yes, their are corrupt practices leading to bloated pensions. Yes these pensions are the result of contracts. There is a lot wrong with public sector pensions and little right about them. 
 
The fact is public sector pensions are bankrupting states, schools, and local municipalities. The PGC has the same issue as the great majority of their expenditures is personnel costs. 
 
 

My rifle is a black rifle
#50
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3416
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/08 16:55:15 (permalink)
CAPTAIN HOOK
By the way what is HR ? I'm lost on some abbreviations

 
Herd reduction. ARs have little to do with the decreased sightings of antlered deer in this state and everything to do with out deer population being significantly reduced by herd reduction. 
 

My rifle is a black rifle
#51
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3416
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/08 16:58:11 (permalink)
CAPTAIN HOOK
 
 A rifle is made for longer distance shooting providing your target is legal. That's 90% of the problem seeing a buck is clear , but is it legal ?  Even though you could have had a kill shot you have to pass if you are not 100% sure. Even though I've talked to hunters who said they shoot and look later....not a good or legal method. If one hunts hard and finally sees a decent buck but can't shoot because of uncertainty it gets old fast! I'm not saying hunting should be easy, but given the Winter elements, lack of cover, dressed in bright florescent orange clothing, bucks are on super high alert in rifle season. Seeing one is tough enough but getting one to stand still and count points is a real challenge. Can't blame some rifle hunters for the frustration and not hunting as much.



 
The same issue exists with antlerless hunting. A ethical hunter should be carefully glassing deer if hunting does as well if they are at a distance to make sure a small buck isn't shot by mistake. A small spike or 3 point can be easily overlooked at 200 yards as it is moving through timber with a group of other deer. 

My rifle is a black rifle
#52
anzomcik
Expert Angler
  • Total Posts : 715
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2007/07/31 05:16:41
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/09 00:49:05 (permalink)
rsquared

One thing I loathe about AR is that it initially was sold as a way to increase the quality of the bucks in PA by making sure older bucks got in on the breeding. Absolutely ridiculous if you know even basic biology. A scrub 1.5 year old buck is gonna have the same genetics as he always will. A stud 1.5 year old will have the same genetics as he always will. I do believe eventually the PGC copped to lying about that.


Your correct about genetics being the same as a deer ages. The bigger picture would also include an age structure of a healthy herd that had dominance established by mature bucks. The dominant buck would have more years breeding, and possibly more does breed per year from that dominate position. Pa used hr and ar to put the herd closer to that model. Listening to biologists from PSU it has been very successful achieving a better age structure.
#53
BeenThereDoneThat.
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 11939
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2014/05/14 07:30:39
  • Location: A Field or A Float
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/09 09:53:53 (permalink)
So why not allow the dominate bucks survive and just kill off all the smaller buck?    Ewww, not many P & Y or B & C boys would like that idea now would they.  Looking at a green score of 200, through your scope, and not able to pull the trigger.  Wouldn't that just make your day?  Ain't able to get your name in a record book, because of stupid ARs.  And silly me, I swore during all those special meetings conducted by the "PGC Biologist", we older generation was hearing a trophy buck behind every tree, not a older buck behind every tree?
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2018/01/09 10:01:32

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#54
SaltWaterRocks
Novice Angler
  • Total Posts : 73
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2013/04/02 17:01:19
  • Location: Crawford County Pa
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/09 10:34:23 (permalink)
 
 
 
Much like any govt entity, they are trying to squeeze every last drop of oil from the olive. What is plaguing our state govt and all of its agencies is the ongoing pension crisis. Our elected officials won't make hard decisions and reform pensions in this state as the public unions are powerful and the representatives benefit from the same pensions. 
 
The political system is rigged in this state to prevent change. The powerful parties control what candidates have any shot of winning. And so it goes. On and on again and the people of this commonwealth are drowning in taxes and fees.  





DPMS, you couldn't be more wrong.  The "pension crisis" has nothing to do with the teachers, public employees or their unions.  The crisis came from the state failing to fulfill its OBLIGATION.  The "pension crisis" was something the state was well aware of for close to 20 years.  Here's how it works.  The employee puts in 7.54% of their salary(this year) and the state and the school district match it.  Current contribution rates are expected to go up to around 33% for the districts.  Why?  Because for many, many years, the state and the districts paid in LESS than 1% of their part due to HUGE returns on investments...and then Enron.  Even when they hew it was coming, they refused to acknowledge the problem and increase their contribution rates(gradually.)  And now, they are switching to a defined contribution plan so that the new employees get screwed over on their pensions.  As a side note, EVERY state which has switched from a defined benefit to a defined contribution plan has found the defined contribution(401k style) to be MORE expensive to manage and they have switched back.  How about we look ad downsizing government?  A study a few years back showed a $5,000,000 savings by combining PGC and PFBC into one agency(like EVERY OTHER STATE!!)  It would have eliminated about 52 jobs.  It is a good idea...wait...what?...$5,000,000 divided by 52!?!...that is almost $100,000 per employee...they must be talking about me(a useless bureaucrat) so I can't possibly support that any more!!!  How about adding $1 to doe licenses?  Each $1 is an additional $890,000 in the till.  What they PGC is trying to do is force the legislatures hand.  The PGC can't raise license fees, but they can sell "permits" and set the price for them.  They are telling the legislature "ok, we are getting our money one way or another."  I hope they decide to combine the agencies(just because it is a good idea) and send the message.  The problem is we live in Pennsylvania and no meaningful reform could ever happen.  To quote another "rant over." 
#55
anzomcik
Expert Angler
  • Total Posts : 715
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2007/07/31 05:16:41
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/09 13:11:47 (permalink)
BeenThereDoneThat.
So why not allow the dominate bucks survive and just kill off all the smaller buck?    Ewww, not many P & Y or B & C boys would like that idea now would they.  Looking at a green score of 200, through your scope, and not able to pull the trigger.  Wouldn't that just make your day?  Ain't able to get your name in a record book, because of stupid ARs.  And silly me, I swore during all those special meetings conducted by the "PGC Biologist", we older generation was hearing a trophy buck behind every tree, not a older buck behind every tree?




i never thought about it like that, you make an excellent point. All this time I thought that it took an age structure in deer to establish dominance (the way it happens naturally). I guess it doesnt take deer to live 4 years to be a 4 year old, it must be magic how they can time travel. But You just opened my eyes, kill the young to allow the remaining surviving ageing class to die of old age. Thats the path we should band together as hunters to get pushed through!
 
Please with all of this quoting of "trophy deer behind every tree"  could i see a report, screen shot, or video of that actually being said by the PGC or a Biologist. It could just be your older generation making up stories as your memory starts to slip, its ok I understand that happens.
 
You have to be trolling to think that age has nothing to do with antler size...
 
 
#56
DarDys
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 4734
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2009/11/13 08:46:21
  • Location: Duncansville, PA
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/09 15:14:38 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby CAPTAIN HOOK 2018/01/09 17:36:12
To get huge bucks, if that is indeed the goal, age is definitely one of the important factors, but it is not the only factor, and may not even be the most important factor.

Genetics more than likely leads the way. Without the propensity for size via genetic disposition, the other factors, age and nutrition, mean nothing. No matter how long Gary Coleman lived, or how much and nutritiontioally correct his diet was, he was not going to attain the size of Shaq. Just wasn’t going to happen due to genetic limiters.

The same is true with deer. If the DNA says no brow tines, that deer can live to be 1000 while located in a feed mill and there will be no brow tines.

If the deer DNA says the right antler structure is weak and it will have a tendency to snap off during normal deer activity, line removing velvet, no amount of minerals, protein, or birthdays will change that fact.

My father, brother (they have both since passed), and I have collected over 100 sets of antlers from the same 2-3 square mile area in Clearfield county. Those antlers date from 1964 to 2015. There are four distinct genetic traits — 1) very nice, wide and heavy; 2) very narrow, thin, and tall; 3) low and short tines with the one side breaking off right above the brow tine with the other side being complete; and 4) fairly normal with one side breaking off above the brow tine (opposite side of the previous trailed buck) and the other side snapping off just ahead of the G-2.

It didn’t matter how old these deer were, they had one of the four types of antlers. With those genetics, only cohort group #1 would ever be a trophy deer — and it would need age and nutrition to get there.

Group #2, while being legal with regard to number of points, will always be 6-8 inches wide no matter how well they ate or how long they lived.

Group #3, will be legal with regard to AR, but because only one side is legal, would probably get passed on most of the time, especially by gun hunters in the woods, due to the uncertainty of whether the one side was legal or not.

Group #4 will never be legal under AR, no matter the food or age.

With groups #3 and #4 not being harvested on a regular basis (haven’t seen a junior hunter there since I was one), their population grows unfettered. Group #2, while not having unchecked population growth, probably had a better survival chance than group #1 based on the narrowness causing some doubt on legality.

Since group #1 is always legal and most easily seen as such, the pressure on their population is the highest. At some point, economy of scale takes over and although group #1 is obviously dominant, they simply get so outnumbered that the other groups get ample breeding opportunities and that just furthers their numbers, tipping the scale further away from group #1.

Now, the nutrition, both in terms of food and minerals, is bad, but not great in that area. This means that even good genetics coupled with age, still might not produce that trophy buck. All in all, AR and HR will not have the desired affect in that area.

Lately, I have hunted at my home. This area, unlike the one described above, should be ideal for AR and HR to have the desired affect on herd structure. Food is abundant, with the west and south neighbor being a truck farmer growing sweet corn plus a wide variety of vegetables; the east neighbor growing alfalfa and winter wheat; and my property being a mix of quality Timothy and red clover ( which is mown three times per year, even in the woods in order to proved fresh shoots which the deer prefer), along with a sprinkling of this and that commercially sold deer food plot plants. The north side is an oak ridge.

The soil is mineral rich, especially along the wooded creek bottom with more than enough limestone. There is adequate water in the creek and the east neighbor’s pond (which is in the middle of a thicket). To the southeast, there is about a 3-5 acre swamp that serves as a sanctuary area. All properties mentioned are private and posted as solid as Sears used to be.

The age, gender, and herd structure is sound save for one genetic outlier (four points with no brow tines no matter the age or size, some are 18” wide). But there is still a hunting problem.

Since I live here and have a lot of time off, I pretty much see what goes on during the day, at least in the field and wood edge areas. I have four separate trail cams on each of the major travel routes in the woods (I bush whacked them, then planted them with a mix of deer food plot seeds and clover) and two on the field/woods interface to capture what I can’t see in the woods or at night. These stay out year round. I pull cards monthly from January through September; every two weeks in September and October; and weekly in November and December.

Looking over the three years worth of data I have collected, there is always a good buck ir two on camera in March and April (there was a dandy in 2017 on 4/21); up to three non legal or very small legal bucks from the start of antler growth in May (the same doe had triplet bucks in 2015 and 2016, so I suspect that is what is showing up); and then things get interesting in late October.

Plus or minus three days of Halloween, the number of non resident bucks is amazing. In 2016, there were 17 different bucks show up on camera. Some were real monsters. In 2017, there were 22 different bucks on camera during that same time period. In addition, I saw over a dozen during the daylight with eyes and binoculars.

All this points to great hunting opportunities. Maybe. Well, it does if one can hunt those days. If one cannot, the rest of the story is grim, despite the genetics, the age, the nutrition, and the herd structure.

In 2015, 2016, and 2017, NO legal bucks were seen in person by my wife or I and NONE were on any trail cameras later than 11/5. In fact, during those three years, NO bucks were seen in person or on camera from 11/15 until 3/9 of the next year.

In other words, even with everything pretty much perfect, one could have hunted our property every second of gun season and NEVER seen a buck for three years. Further, in the same three years, exactly one buck was killed in gun season off all the surrounding properties.

In archery, yes, bucks have been killed, particularly in the above time frame.

So many things need to come together, and it still might not work out.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#57
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3416
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/09 15:21:34 (permalink)
SaltWaterRocks
DPMS, you couldn't be more wrong.  The "pension crisis" has nothing to do with the teachers, public employees or their unions.  The crisis came from the state failing to fulfill its OBLIGATION. 

 
I never said it was the fault of the public employees? I hold no ill will towards public employees. What I did say was that pension plans usually lead to one thing. A failing business or a business that is bailed out by taxpayers or paid for by increasing taxpayer burden due to uncontrolled costs.  There is a reason why pensions of any form are a rarity in the private sector. The people of this state cannot or could not ever support the type of contributions necessary to keep the pension plans solvent. Yes, they were robbed, but this crisis was coming whether they were robbed or not. Early outs, people living longer than ever, fraudulent practices to increase pension payments. It just goes on and on why we are in the crisis we are in.
 
Defined contribution plans are a much better option but the damage was done a long time ago.  The pension crisis in this state is protected by special protections not offered in the private sector and a govt that is unwilling to address the issue due to powerful unions. When a private pension collapses, the company goes bankrupt and the retirees lose most if not all of their benefits. Why should public pensions being paid for by taxpayers be different when the funds are mismanaged?
 
 
How about we look ad downsizing government? 

 
For sure. I wholeheartedly support gutting govt.
 
 


post edited by dpms - 2018/01/09 15:29:33

My rifle is a black rifle
#58
BeenThereDoneThat.
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 11939
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2014/05/14 07:30:39
  • Location: A Field or A Float
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/09 15:39:36 (permalink)
Oooopsy, did I strike a nerve? 😏

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#59
dpms
Pro Angler
  • Total Posts : 3416
  • Reward points: 0
  • Joined: 2006/08/28 12:47:54
  • Status: offline
Re: Again?? 2018/01/09 15:45:20 (permalink)
anzomcik
Please with all of this quoting of "trophy deer behind every tree"  could i see a report, screen shot, or video of that actually being said by the PGC or a Biologist.



 
Gary Alt did say the we would have "more and bigger bucks" because of ARs. That simply cannot occur if you reduce the deer herd at the same time. That was the bait to gain support for HR. We have less bucks now in this state than we did 20 years ago. But the bucks we do have now are slightly older on average than at that time. That is all that has changed.

My rifle is a black rifle
#60
Page: < 1234 > Showing page 2 of 4
Jump to: