wayne c
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ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
I saw this posted on another board, and thought that it is EXACTLY what we need. Instead of a few agenda pushing enviromaniacs telling us what we will have, we should have a say in matters. This sounds like a reasonable way to do just that:
MICHAEL K. HANNA,
DEMOCRATIC WHIP o
428 MAIN CAPITOL
P.O. BOX 202076
HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA 17120-2076
PHONE: (717) 772-2283
o 29 BELLEFONTE AVENUE
LOCK HAVEN, PENNSYLVANIA 1n45
PHONE: (570) 748-5480
TOLL-FREE: 1 (800) 845-7846
o 102 TURNPIKE STREET
P.O. BOX 1134
MILESBURG, PENNSYLVANIA 16853
PHONE: (814) 353-8780
COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA
HARRISBURG
MEMORANDUM
TO: All House Members
FROM: Representative Mike Hanna
DATE: November 1,2011
SUBJECT: Legislation Amending the Duties of the Pennsylvania Game Commission and
Providing for an Antlerless Deer Harvest Committee
In the near future, I will be introducing legislation designed to focus the mission of the Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC) on sportsmen, while also giving hunters more involvement in the management of whitetail deer.
As you may know, the PGC is responsible for managing game in the Commonwealth. Within the last decade, the PGC has changed their deer management strategy. This change has demonstrated that the PGC is not considering the needs of sportsmen. As such, the legislation that I will be
introducing would amend the duties of the PGC to focus primarily on serving the interests of sportsmen, including maximizing the sustainable yield of the whitetail deer herd.
This legislation would also establish an Antlerless Deer Harvest Committee. Currently, the PGC determines antlerless deer allocations with minimal public involvement. Under this legislation, an Antlerless Deer Harvest Committee would review the information and calculations and accept
the recommendations or propose their own allocations. The decision of the committee would be binding on the PGC.
Since sportsmen are the primary means used by the PGC to manage game, I believe it is imperative that we ensure that the PGC is serving the interests of our sportsmen and providing for their involvement in the management of our wildlife resources.
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worm_waster
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 17:04:08
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"As such, the legislation that I will be introducing would amend the duties of the PGC to focus primarily on serving the interests of sportsmen, including maximizing the sustainable yield of the whitetail deer herd." Even if it is detrimental to the habitat or long term viability of the deer herd? "Currently, the PGC determines antlerless deer allocations with minimal public involvement." But filling them is completely up to the public. I'm not sure exactly how many deer that there needs to be. I have hunted both public and private land over the past 20 years with most years harvesting (killing, whatever  ) 3-5 deer per year, while going to school or working full time. Of course, I scout most of my areas preseason, I don't hunt public property within a few hundred yards of the road, I manage my antlerss licenses for maximum areas to hunt, and may hunt 1B, 1A, 2B and 2G (with DMAP) throughout the year. Now I haven't seen the "Glory Days" of NCPA with a 100 deer per day. The most I have seen in a day is in the 20's maybe 30 once or twice. Most days when I am successful at killing a deer I see 1-5. (Ya can't shoot 'em from the skinning shed.  ) Usually I find that I harvest a deer every other full day of hunting. (15-20 hours per deer.) Of course on opening days, my average is higher and lower later in the season. Now I'm not an "Alpha Hunter" and spend much of my time on stand drinking coffee and chain smoking Marlboros waiting for the deer to show up. Many deer hunters on this board are much more dedicated and spend much more time in the woods than I. (I rarely archery hunt). Somebody, please tell me exactly how many deer one has to see to consider it a successfull day. Thanks for listening w_w.
If it has fins and gills, I'm there.
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wayne c
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 17:22:34
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"Even if it is detrimental to the habitat or long term viability of the deer herd?" There is nothing that suggests that would be the case. The particulars of the proposal havent even been ironed out yet. There is no reason to believe the end product would be as extreme as the one we have currently, only in the opposite direction. I think there is definately room for middle ground. And without provisions being made legislatively, they will NEVER be explored, unless the highly hunter nonfriendly environmentalists at pgc are forced into doing so. "But filling them is completely up to the public." A "public" which is completely unorganized, unstructured, and at least some of which, uneducated on the topic. I also would suggest that "billy bob" wouldnt be the leader and spokesman of any such "committee". lol I'm not sure exactly how many deer that there needs to be. Thats a debate all its own. I think the huge majority out there believe there are far fewer than should be and could be in many places. But the only thing i have spoken of is that there IS a problem and there has been a reasonable solution proposed. Noone has said there must be 5 dpsm or 50. This discussion imo is a contructive one that Hanna has initiated and one that would take alot of input and structuring. If it were done "right" it would probably be the best piece of hunting legislation in the last 50 years.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/11/03 17:33:06
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worm_waster
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 17:32:11
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"A largely unorganized, unstructured, and often uneducated on the topic public." (for the record, this was your quote)
And you are in favor of these same people having a say in allocations? Just wondering.
I understand that it's not a number you can place on it. But here is basically what I consider reasonable quality deer hunting. Seeing a group of deer in the morning and evening with a reasonable expectation of success. A dead deer for every other day of hunting is a reasonable expectation of success IMO. As you well know, there is a difference in seeing and killing.YMMV.w_w.
If it has fins and gills, I'm there.
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wayne c
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 17:42:44
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"And you are in favor of these same people having a say in allocations? Just wondering." I could just as easily turn that around and ask, are you in favor of NOONE but those 'others' that the hand picked staff and boc at pgc represent, having a "say" as the case is currently with the allocations thanks to the goals of biodiversity extremism set by a select few? But to answer your question, yes. Not THEE say as in making the decisions on their own, but they should be able to have a "say" in some form or another, and I have little doubt that their "input" would be counter balanced by the "reasonable" folks, and even some who believe things should be "as they are". Again, the end product would probably be a reasonable middle ground imho. Thats also the purpose of having a committee and not just going to the local bar and asking the first 20 hunters you see. I also believe we would be having some from both "extremes" giving some level of say on the matter and the majority again would be the middle ground. I think you would have few who would want no doe hunting, 2 million deer etc. etc. And on the other extreme end, you would have those that think deer are evil pests, with the only good deer a dead deer and little else. As for the proposed legislation, Im sure the envirofolks and a few others that think all hunters are a greedy bunch of idiots that care about nothing else other than 5 deer behind every tree who have no legitimate gripe currently would probably disagree, but couldnt really imagine too many "hunters" not wanting some level of say higher than the current ZERO level. lol. Again, as for numbers of deer etc. That is going a bit too deep in the preliminary stages of something that is only being proposed and unfortunately not likely to pass according to recent history anyway. That would require input and even before that, structuring of said committee. On another note, this "committee" wouldnt be all that different from the current BOC. Except they wouldnt be antideer political puppet appointees.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/11/03 17:55:32
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worm_waster
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 18:19:21
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Wayne,
I am not asking how many deer the state should have.
What I am asking is:
How many deer do YOU need to see to consider it successful or worth hunting?
Thanks.w_w.
If it has fins and gills, I'm there.
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S-10
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 19:45:15
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I have hunted both public and private land over the past 20 years How many bucks did you kill the first 10 years? How many bucks have you killed the last 10 years.
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dpms
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 19:56:37
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
MICHAEL K. HANNA,
DEMOCRATIC WHIP o
428 MAIN CAPITOL
P.O. BOX 202076
HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA 17120-2076
PHONE: (717) 772-2283
Under this legislation, an Antlerless Deer Harvest Committee would review the information and calculations and accept the recommendations or propose their own allocations. The decision of the committee would be binding on the PGC.
Binding on the PGC. Sounds like a swell idea...... Not.
My rifle is a black rifle
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S-10
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 20:12:36
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Sounds just like the CAC's the PGC started on their own to allow citizen stakeholder input into the deer harvest. The only difference is instead of the PGC pretending they paid attenion to the CAC's opinions they actually would have to pay attention. It could be a good thing depending on how the committee was formed.
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worm_waster
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 20:16:32
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3 pre ar 2 since. I have seen ALOT more bucks all told since (small). Because of my work schedule, I only hunt 3 days per year when bucks are legal, so my sampling is very small. I see many more legal bucks in EML than gun season.
To me, quite honestly, a mature doe is an equal trophy to a 1.5 year old buck, they both produce about 50lbs of boned out meat.
I will admit that since multiple tags, I am not as successful on bucks as I could be. It's hard to see whats at the back of the herd if your shooting at the front.
I am not saying that there are as many deer as their used to be, but I don't see a problem with deer numbers anywhere in Western PA that I have hunted. I can show you places to hunt where you probably won't see any deer, but I prefer to hunt where they are.w_w.
If it has fins and gills, I'm there.
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S-10
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 20:32:29
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Most deer hunters hunted for bucks and took a doe as a last resort. Per the PGC, The buck harvest is a baramoter of the health of the herd. The PGC attempted to make it harder to kill a buck hoping folks would get discouraged and shoot a doe which reduces the deer herd at a faster rate.Sounds like your doing just what they want. What happens when you run out of places where the deer are that you can hunt.
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wayne c
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 20:44:19
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Wayne,
I am not asking how many deer the state should have.
What I am asking is:
How many deer do YOU need to see to consider it successful or worth hunting?
Thanks.w_w. It doesnt matter. Im not expecting Pgc to manage based on what I alone personally see, wanna see, or don't see. I know what I see, I know how most others around here feel, and Ive followed the management situation and pgc data closely for years. I see no reason for me to delve deeper than that. This thread isnt about me defending my position, Im not really interested in lengthy debate. Its just to let others know of this and give my feelings on it.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/11/03 20:58:59
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wayne c
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 20:46:19
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Binding on the PGC. Sounds like a swell idea...... Not. I had no doubt you would feel that way dpms. None at all.... You havent even seen or heard the details, yet since it negates pgc as being supreme dictatorship and thats enough for you as usual. To each his own.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/11/03 20:59:53
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wayne c
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 20:50:41
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Sounds just like the CAC's the PGC started on their own to allow citizen stakeholder input into the deer harvest. The only difference is instead of the PGC pretending they paid attenion to the CAC's opinions they actually would have to pay attention. It could be a good thing depending on how the committee was formed. Absolutely. And there would no doubt be much public input just like with the sunday hunting deal. This is simply the preliminary discussion stage and to be completely against hunters actually having a level of voice in these issues is absurd unless someone is from audubon or peta.
I am not saying that there are as many deer as their used to be, but I don't see a problem with deer numbers anywhere in Western PA that I have hunted
Many would disagree here. It should not be based on what you think, it should be based on the habitat carrying capacity. And the herd is currently well below it in most places. With further reductions occurring despite claims of stabilization over the past 6 years. Thats a documented fact. That I dont support. And the herd doesnt have to be at 5 dpsm here for us to have a problem with the clear trends agendas and goals. There are fewer deer than could be and should be across most of the state. Some are just a lot lower deer density than others. Which doesnt mean alot in itself, because many units from different regions simply arent comparable anyway. Even the ardent pgc supporter dpms has claimed more than once that he felt the allocations are too high in his unit. Unfortunately I guess he feels pgc isnt doing the best job it should be doing, but he doesnt care that they do nothing at all about it even though he has somewhat of a problem with it, and so many more of us have a BIG problem with it.... Kinda confusing actually.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/11/03 20:56:36
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worm_waster
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 20:59:42
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
Wayne,
I am not asking how many deer the state should have.
What I am asking is:
How many deer do YOU need to see to consider it successful or worth hunting?
Thanks.w_w.
It doesnt matter. Im not expecting Pgc to manage based on what I alone personally see, wanna see, or don't see.
Then what are you basing your theory that there aren't enough deer? If it's not personal observation. it could only be from what you read or what other people tell you. There is no other way.w_w.
If it has fins and gills, I'm there.
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wayne c
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 21:01:10
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Its a compilation of things. I think i have more than explained. Please refrain from twisting my position to something other than what was written.
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dpms
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 21:17:21
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ORIGINAL: S-10
The only difference is instead of the PGC pretending they paid attenion to the CAC's opinions they actually would have to pay attention. It could be a good thing depending on how the committee was formed.
Not only would they have to pay attention but they would be bound by the committee's decision. The PGC is the agency that is tasked with managing our widlife resources.
My rifle is a black rifle
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wayne c
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 21:17:23
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I think most are aware that there are big problems here in Pa...widescale... with deer management. And more on the way if things are permitted to stay the same. The question for me is not asking "is there a problem". I think that is all too obvious to most. The question here should be, can something like this proposal be utilized to fix those problems. I would say absolutely.
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wayne c
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 21:20:56
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Not only would they have to pay attention but they would be bound by the committee's decision. Well....since friendly suggestion does absolutely NOTHING.  They are already bound by their own special interest catering...audubon, dcnr.. Why not hunters? If a "hunter friendly" non-other-interest pushing boc were in place, youd basically have the exact same result as this proposal, and no, Im not talking about hordes of rampant hooved rats by the millions wreaking havock on the forests. lol. The PGC is the agency that is tasked with managing our widlife resources. And that is very VERY unfortunate. Would you support them, just at face value if heidi prescott were the executive director...just because?? Then why these other agenda pushers? Its ok because they arent trying to stop hunting, so anything short of that despite how damaging it is, is A-ok?? Not trying to be a wise-butt here, seriously don't understand where you are coming from here.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/11/03 21:23:53
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S-10
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 21:24:54
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quote:
ORIGINAL: S-10
The only difference is instead of the PGC pretending they paid attenion to the CAC's opinions they actually would have to pay attention. It could be a good thing depending on how the committee was formed.
Not only would they have to pay attention but they would be bound by the committee's decision.
The PGC is the agency that is tasked with managing our widlife resources.
_____________________________ It's all a matter of who you trust and at the preent time I do not trust the PGC to manage the states wildlife. I'am sure the Audubon Society's leaders have a different opinion.
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dpms
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 21:26:36
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
I had no doubt you would feel that way dpms. None at all.... You havent even seen or heard the details, yet since it negates pgc as being supreme dictatorship and thats enough for you as usual. To each his own.
If this proposed committee is tasked with determining allocations that are binding, then I don't need to hear details.
My rifle is a black rifle
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dpms
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 21:31:32
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
Even the ardent pgc supporter dpms has claimed more than once that he felt the allocations are too high in his unit. Unfortunately I guess he feels pgc isnt doing the best job it should be doing, but he doesnt care that they do nothing at all about it even though he has somewhat of a problem with it, and so many more of us have a BIG problem with it.... Kinda confusing actually.
Not confusing at all. The PGC is our game agency. When I disagree with something I do what everyone can do and express my thoughts to the commissioners. If I didn't care I would make the effort.
My rifle is a black rifle
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wayne c
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 21:32:55
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wayne c
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 21:36:00
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"Not confusing at all. The PGC is our game agency." Its audubon and dcnrs game agency. We as hunters dont fit into "our" these days, and that is unfortunate.
"When I disagree with something I do what everyone can do and express my thoughts to the commissioners."
Hows that working fer ya in regards to deer management? Don't know about you, but I think how it works for most is pretty well documented over the last decade.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 21:37:05
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Most deer hunters hunted for bucks and took a doe as a last resort. That in my opinion is a bunch of BS... #1 = for many years in the past it was one and done for harvesting deer .... so many did not even have a chance or choice to hunt both #2 = Antlerless season was only 3 days back then and weather played the biggest part in the number harvested.. good weather years the kill was high.. bad weather for one or two days made the harvest very low #3 = It was not that hunters were mainly after bucks .. for many that was the only time they had to harvest any deer ... remember - antlerless season was a Mon, Tues, Wed.. many guys I knew back then had no way of getting time off from their jobs after taking time off two weeks before that to hunt the tradition "buck season" opener in Pa.... #4 = you also have to remember that not everyone who wanted a "doe tag" before the late 90s got tags either Buck season has always been #1 for Pa deer hunters .... and there have ALWAYS been those not wanting folks to shoot females .... but for quite a few hunters when given a chance to harvest both a buck and a doe they pursued BOTH equally hard and were happy when they harvest the deer they chose. There have also ALWAYS been those thinking that a hunter who harvested an antlerless was less of a hunter, but thankfully many of us don't really care what we harvest or what others think of our decisions..... we're happy when ALL the deer seasons are finally over and we have venison in the freezer...... Now with concurrent seasons hunters do have a choice on which sex they want to harvest (or even one of each)and I believe more are "settling" for an antlerless after the opener of rifle season if they do not get a buck... rather have meat in the freezer than have nothing... I would never want to think a fellow hunter had to "take a doe as a last resort", that makes it sound like there is something wrong or less skillful in harvetsing a doe. Hunters today have a much better choice in what they prefer to hunt, or want to harvest.. ALL GOOD THINGS IMHO !!!!
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wayne c
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 21:37:16
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I'am sure the Audubon Society's leaders have a different opinion. Id imagine so, considering our deer plan is their "audubon deer study forum" nearly verbatim. lol.
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wayne c
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 21:43:52
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"#1 = for many years in the past it was one and done for harvesting deer .... so many did not even have a chance or choice to hunt both " Doc, noones saying that would be the case 1and done 2 and done or anything else. You are reading things into it that arent there. The appropriateness of the allocation would and unit herd size is all that would be discussed. Not season length, or structure, ending doe season, nor individual bag limits. For example if hunters in my unit thought our allocation was absolutely ridiculous, which it is, it could be discussed in committee and reduced somewhat. Just as the boc has the power to do and has through the years from time to time. Problem is they dont represent us, antideer political appointees for the most part.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/11/03 21:47:17
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dpms
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 21:44:56
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
Not trying to be a wise-butt here, seriously don't understand where you are coming from here.
Coming from with what? The PGC is our game agency. I communicate with them, in regards to the duties that they are tasked to do, if I feel the need. When legislation comes about, I communicate with legislators. If this bill has binding language in it, I will oppose it.
My rifle is a black rifle
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dpms
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 21:52:53
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
Hows that working fer ya in regards to deer management? Don't know about you, but I think how it works for most is pretty well documented over the last decade.
Sometimes good and sometimes not so good. Had some favorable outcomes and some not so favorable.
My rifle is a black rifle
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wayne c
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RE: ANTLERLESS DEER LEGISLATION. THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!
2011/11/03 21:54:04
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"When legislation comes about, I communicate with legislators. If this bill has binding language in it, I will oppose it." Unfortunately, I think we both know it probably isnt going anywhere. Pgc has more political might than we do. btw, as hunters, they arent "OUR" game management agency, and havent been for a good while now. And no greater disservice can be done towards our ranks than to allow them to completely "stay the course".
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