For the sunday hunting lovers/haters

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wayne c
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 14:19:56 (permalink)
And yes, I am vocal about the lack of game, particularly deer. But I don't see Sunday hunitng having a large impact. At least not enough to deny the opportunity to hunt to those that may need that day in oder to do so.


While I dont agree with your conclusion dards, I can respect that view. Succinct and to the point without all the dodging and weaving.

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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 14:22:26 (permalink)
Yes but your looking at those percentages the wrong way. First Sat counts for 15-20% of the total deer kill not 15-20% of the total hunters harvesting a deer. At the end of the season 85% or more of the hunters still have not killed a buck so they will still be looking on those Sundays and Sundays is the day the majority will have off.

Remember, Alt said his big mistake was starting doe season on the last day of buck because the additional hunters in the woods led to (his words) 60,000 more bucks killed than anyone had anticipated. Also, the reason they gave for starting doe on a Sat was to kill more doe than they would with a Monday start.. Many people have to work on Sat. Most of them have Sun off. It's easy to see why they would want the extra days but impossible to see how it is going th improve the number one reason for hunters quitting the sport.
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wayne c
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 14:27:32 (permalink)
Lets see---Alt was the game agency, The game agency has been following nearly everything that the Audubon sponsered forum wanted, and the DCNR controls some of the PGC's purse strings. Whose side are you on?


After reading many of his posts for years now on hpa on deer management issues, Id say that is a very fair question.
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dpms
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 14:46:07 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10


They started bear on Sat to INCREASE the bear kill.
They started afternoon gobbler in spite of the flock being down over 30% and we don't know what the results of that will be.
Your crazy if you think the 2 weeks hunting the rut didn't jump the kill.

 
I didn't state that the kill did not go up.  I stated that any increased kill for all of those examples did not result in the need for any changes.  All that happened was increased opportunities.

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dpms
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 14:52:14 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: wayne c

Are you kidding me? You want to speak of those low particiation seasons and compare to rifle deer with a straight face?? There would probably be more hunters afield on that one day of rifle season being added than were added in ALL of those seasons combined! And vying for an already strained resource. But lets just ignore that eh dpsm? Pgc wants sunday hunting to add to the arsenal NOW, so sunday hunting there must be.



I am quite confident saying it with a straight face, especially for rifle deer. We are talking one day which may be responsbile for 10-15% of the total harvest.

The common denominator in this whole discussion is that as hunter numbers and participation hours decrease, opportunities will increase resulting in a wash.
 
Off to camp for the archery opener to try to kill one of the elusive deer.  Good luck if you guys are headed out.
post edited by dpms - 2011/09/30 14:56:27

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wayne c
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 15:05:27 (permalink)
I am quite confident saying it with a straight face, especially for rifle deer. We are talking one day which may be responsbile for 10-15% of the total harvest.


Oh so we can just forget all about it then. lol.

The common denominator in this whole discussion is that as hunter numbers and participation hours decrease, opportunities will increase resulting in a wash.


There is no "wash". Our nearly a million tags, crossbows, early ml season, early rifle for sr & jr, and every other "opportunity" that has come about has far exceeded any "need" considering our hunter numbers. When we have more hunters then pretty much anyone else, what on earth makes you think we should also have more opportunities than everyone else?

Off to camp for the archery opener to try to kill one of the elusive deer. Good luck if you guys are headed out.


Good luck tomorrow. I'll be out. No going to "camp" though. Its about 20 minute drive for me in the a.m. where I am headed. Make sure you have that cross-contraption pointed the right direction, be safe and good huntin'.
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 15:09:39 (permalink)
One more thing before I go.  That 10-15% is percent of the total kill attributable to that one Sunday.  It remains to be seen if the actual kill increases as a result of adding a Sunday.  One buck tag and antlerless allocations control it more than one day here or there.

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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 15:10:45 (permalink)
The common denominator in this whole discussion is that as hunter numbers and participation hours decrease, opportunities will increase resulting in a wash.


Your ignoring the fact that the reason hunter numbers and participation hours are decreasing is the FACT that opportunities for taking game have decreased per the PGC's own surveys as talked about in the spring BOC meeting.


Now you are advocating trying to increase the hunter participation hours to further decrease game numbers and opportunities.
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 15:14:35 (permalink)
One buck tag and antlerless allocations control it more than one day here or there.


Not when only 15% of buck hunters are successful-----in that case it is time put in equals game taken.

Good luck tomorrow. My goal for the day is to watch the grandson sink one deep behind the shoulder.
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wayne c
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 15:33:03 (permalink)
"It remains to be seen if the actual kill increases as a result of adding a Sunday."


Common sense tells me that it will be higher than would have been the case otherwise. And thats all that matters to me when too many are being harvested as it is already.

One buck tag and antlerless allocations control it more than one day here or there.


That doesnt make any sense. Every buck tag is NOT filled, but with sundays, more buck would initially be harvested than would have been the case without sunday hunting...Then the harvest would decrease thanks to the doe harvest and even less recruitment of buck into the future.

You point to allocations as controlling overharvest? lol. Good one! ha ha ha. Good one indeed.

Add more opportunity to use the ridiculously inappropriately high alottment and there will be no effect if they are not lowered? I dont think you have given that statement much if any thought. More doe will be killed than would have been the case without sunday hunting if allocations were not appropriately reduced.

And there is absolutely no reason to believe they would be, because more dead deer is exactly why pgc wants it in the first place.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/09/30 15:40:03
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wayne c
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 15:42:24 (permalink)
Good luck tomorrow. My goal for the day is to watch the grandson sink one deep behind the shoulder.


Good luck wit dat!
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RE: For the Sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 17:30:55 (permalink)
Too many of you guys seem to focus on killing more deer on Sunday. How many really need Sunday to make or break their success? The serious deer hunter has plenty of days to harvest a deer and most who are avid hunters will Sunday or no Sunday. Some just want choice. A day to take Jr out or just a day to get in the woods with a weapon. Many times I would like to get out and hunt spring gobbler before backing it up and heading down the road Sunday. I usually archery hunt October but would also like to do some grouse or squirrel on Sunday with the kids. I thinking most of you guys never hunted a state where Sunday hunting was legal. It's not really a big deal.
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 17:32:51 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: S-10

One buck tag and antlerless allocations control it more than one day here or there.


Not when only 15% of buck hunters are successful-----in that case it is time put in equals game taken.

Good luck tomorrow. My goal for the day is to watch the grandson sink one deep behind the shoulder.


Good luck to your grandson !
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 17:36:57 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: coldfront


ORIGINAL: S-10

I hunt Ohio every year and the landowners there are divided on the DNR enforcement and the landowner permits. It seems many don't want the DNR involved and several have given me verbal permission but won't sign a written permission slip. Never got one to tell me why they feel that way and I thought it best not to push the issue since they said I could hunt there.



i have hunted there also, years ago. some farmers that won't sign say that they fear liability in the event of an accident.


They are smart. I would do the same. A hand shake to me is worth more than a stroke from a pen.
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 18:07:25 (permalink)
Enjoy guys- bring in some venison and have  a great bow season-Turkey for me tomorrow.
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wayne c
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 18:47:51 (permalink)
" How many really need Sunday to make or break their success? "


Enough to decrease an already declining deer herd further. Knock off a saturday and see if it didnt make a diff. and make pgc cry bloody murder. lol.

"The serious deer hunter has plenty of days to harvest a deer and most who are avid hunters will Sunday or no Sunday."

"Some just want choice. A day to take Jr out or just a day to get in the woods with a weapon."


Thats exactly what pgc & dcnr are counting on.

Because some (they) just want the deer herd whacked back some more and for me, opposing this, and preventing that if at all possible supercedes other issues at the moment. For the future of our sport, I believe that it has to.
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wayne c
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 18:51:49 (permalink)
I thinking most of you guys never hunted a state where Sunday hunting was legal. It's


"Most of you guys"....wouldnt include me. I dont see and point to be made there anyway. I have no problem with the deer management/eradication in "other states" that Ive hunted. Because they dont have extreme fringe groups and timber industry running their management into the ground. Which, as you well know, is the only reason I don't support it HERE.
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 19:07:04 (permalink)
How about hunting on Sunday deer excluded ? Some could still take Jr out and hunt small game or turkey. Why does every thing have to revolve around deer ?
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wayne c
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 19:33:34 (permalink)
Pgc would not agree to that, because thats the only reason they want it in the first place.

Why does everything revolve around deer? Its the number one game animal hunted in our state by a wide margin, and its the game animal that pgc/dcnr/audubon most despises.
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/09/30 21:50:36 (permalink)
#1 reason for hunters leaving the sport per the PGC = LACK OF GAME
#2 reason for hunters leaving the sport per the PGC = LACK OF PLACES TO HUNT
ORIGINAL: S-10

Based on this reasoning maybe you should petition to stop hunting on Saturdays. That should help increase game populations and now landowners wouldn't have to chase off trespassers on Saturdays. This should give us more places to hunt. If this works maybe we could stop hunting on even days of the week....
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/10/01 19:30:38 (permalink)
It's not my reasoning, it's the result of the PGC hunter survey to determine why hunters are leaving the sport. They should take whatever steps are necessary to slow or reverse the declne in hunter numbers. Adding additional days will not correct either reason the hunters gave for leaving the sport.
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/10/03 11:38:40 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10

Yes but your looking at those percentages the wrong way. First Sat counts for 15-20% of the total deer kill not 15-20% of the total hunters harvesting a deer. At the end of the season 85% or more of the hunters still have not killed a buck so they will still be looking on those Sundays and Sundays is the day the majority will have off.

Remember, Alt said his big mistake was starting doe season on the last day of buck because the additional hunters in the woods led to (his words) 60,000 more bucks killed than anyone had anticipated. Also, the reason they gave for starting doe on a Sat was to kill more doe than they would with a Monday start.. Many people have to work on Sat. Most of them have Sun off. It's easy to see why they would want the extra days but impossible to see how it is going th improve the number one reason for hunters quitting the sport.

 
Actually, I am looking at it right.  The available population will be down from the first day and Saturday is my point and the percentage of harvest on Sunday must necessarily be lower than either of those two days (and posisbly that of the second day as well).  How much Sunday will contribute is up to debate.
 
If one really wanted to improve the number one reason for hunters quiting, which you state as lack of game, shorten archery season by half -- including the last two weeks.  Remember, archery hunters kill 30% of the bucks before 70% of the hunters even get to enter the woods.  I don't advocate doing so, never would, but if you are really, really hung up on increase numbers, that would be a more proactive way of doing it that worrying about a single Sunday in firearms season.  I guess I am just not as, for lack of a better term, looking out for my own in a I-got-mine-to-heck-with-the-rest-of-you type of way.
 
 

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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dpms
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/10/03 11:50:29 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: DarDys

If one really wanted to improve the number one reason for hunters quiting, which you state as lack of game, shorten archery season by half -- including the last two weeks.  Remember, archery hunters kill 30% of the bucks before 70% of the hunters even get to enter the woods.  I don't advocate doing so, never would, but if you are really, really hung up on increase numbers, that would be a more proactive way of doing it that worrying about a single Sunday in firearms season. 

 
You could do that with the anticipated short term results.  In the long term, the archery harvest would most likely begin to creep back up as a percentage.  It is a national trend that participation in archery is increasing while firearms participation is decreasing.

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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/10/03 12:02:39 (permalink)
What you are ignoring is the fact that all additional days (archery included) additional weapons, seasons or tags and protection or introduction of predators have led to the decrease in the game populations including deer. Even the Fisher is documented as taking fawn deer in Pennsylvania as well as every other game bird and animal.

When many are complaining of lack of game and many more are dropping out of the sport due to lack of game how is it in the best long term interest of anyone except non-hunters, anti hunters and perhaps the forest industry to further reduce the game population through the addition of the one day in seven each week when the most people have off. It is simply short sighted for a hunter to be in favor of doing that and many are on record as being opposed to it.

As for being (hung up) on increasing deer numbers you might want to look over your posts on deer numbers since you joined the board. We can't force the BOC to lower the allocations or reduce the present game reduction methods but we can keep this method of reducing the game population out of their control.
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dpms
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/10/03 13:13:51 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10

It is simply short sighted for a hunter to be in favor of doing that and many are on record as being opposed to it.


The arguement can be made that the ultimate shortsightedness is for hunters to willingly support restricting Sunday hunting, willingly support an entity other than a game agency regulating hunting and willingly choosing politicians over widllife professionals to manage game.  This, at a time when demographics are changing with hunters and hunting under attack like never before.
post edited by dpms - 2011/10/03 13:20:44

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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/10/03 14:01:51 (permalink)
The arguement can be made that the ultimate shortsightedness is for hunters to willingly support restricting Sunday hunting, willingly support an entity other than a game agency regulating hunting and willingly choosing politicians over widllife professionals to manage game. This, at a time when demographics are changing with hunters and hunting under attack like never before.


The game agency you speak is not currently operating like most in the nation.

Tell me how Sunday hunting is going to do anything except make worse the top two reasons hunters themselves have given for giving up the sport.

The game agency you speak of was created to prevent the overharvest of the states wildlife not to promote it.

The game agency you speak of hired 14 non game bioloists and personnel but didn't want to spend the money to raise more ringnecks.

They spent money to research woodrats
They had over 30 million surplus but held up funding for many game related projects
They are clearing part of a state game land in Erie for habitat for songbirds
They have worked with the HSUS on laws affecting hunters
They have implemented all the major herd reduction ideas put forth in the Audubon sponsored "Deer Management Forum" Except Sunday Hunting.
They have introduced perhaps the most efficient small game predator to the sate even as ou small game population is crashing.
The DCNR controls part of their purse strings and dicitates much of their policy
The politicans choose the BOC members

Hunters can't vote the PGC leaders out of office but we can vote the politicans out.

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DarDys
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/10/03 15:04:42 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: S-10

The arguement can be made that the ultimate shortsightedness is for hunters to willingly support restricting Sunday hunting, willingly support an entity other than a game agency regulating hunting and willingly choosing politicians over widllife professionals to manage game. This, at a time when demographics are changing with hunters and hunting under attack like never before.


The game agency you speak is not currently operating like most in the nation.

Tell me how Sunday hunting is going to do anything except make worse the top two reasons hunters themselves have given for giving up the sport.

The game agency you speak of was created to prevent the overharvest of the states wildlife not to promote it.

The game agency you speak of hired 14 non game bioloists and personnel but didn't want to spend the money to raise more ringnecks.

They spent money to research woodrats
They had over 30 million surplus but held up funding for many game related projects
They are clearing part of a state game land in Erie for habitat for songbirds
They have worked with the HSUS on laws affecting hunters
They have implemented all the major herd reduction ideas put forth in the Audubon sponsored "Deer Management Forum" Except Sunday Hunting.
They have introduced perhaps the most efficient small game predator to the sate even as ou small game population is crashing.
The DCNR controls part of their purse strings and dicitates much of their policy
The politicans choose the BOC members

Hunters can't vote the PGC leaders out of office but we can vote the politicans out.



 
Okay, you win.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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dpms
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/10/03 19:18:20 (permalink)
From today's BOC meeting
 
"PFSC would like to clarify, that although our delegates have some concerns with the current wording in HB 1760, our position on the transfer of regulatory authority for Sunday hunting, from the Legislature to the PGC, is still one of support for that transfer. We believe the PGC is the appropriate regulatory authority who should be deciding if, when and where Sunday hunting should be allowed, based on a wildlife management decision like all other seasons and bag limits."


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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/10/03 21:14:56 (permalink)
sure seems that ONCE AGAIN some are going against the wishes of the majority...

what happen to the "we will OPPOSE this bill unless the wording gets changed" from the fall convention hearing on the subject ????


sure glad I am not re-newing my membership ....
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters 2011/10/03 21:32:31 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

what happen to the "we will OPPOSE this bill unless the wording gets changed" from the fall convention hearing on the subject ????


 
That is what I was wondering, Doc.  I understand that the PFSC is being pulled from all four appendages but, at some point, they have to form a position that is solid.  Should be based on the wishes of the membership, IMO. 

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