RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/29 20:34:45
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[image]  [/image] I've been hunting posted property this year. Been seeing some real trophies. Need help putting up more yellow posted signs though.Will give permission to hunt to those that help. Any volunteers ?
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/29 20:40:17
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OA, that may be true as I never had to meet a LO defending the waiver in court  I guess it is really more of a feel good thing than anything. Oh well, it seemed to make some LOs happy. As it stands now, I will support anything that will help cut down on trespassing. This year has been awful for us so far with trespassers. I can only hope that half of my hunting time is not spent dealing with the low lifes...
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/29 21:01:52
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One thing for sure.. if a bill would get passed allowing WCOs to enforce for trespassing alone it may help some landowners in not closing their land completely if the Sunday thing ever happens... the fact a landowner has to reply totally on the PSP now does not help them in thinking about posting the no Sudnay hunting thing...
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/29 21:02:00
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ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter
OA, that may be true as I never had to meet a LO defending the waiver in court I guess it is really more of a feel good thing than anything. Oh well, it seemed to make some LOs happy.
As it stands now, I will support anything that will help cut down on trespassing. This year has been awful for us so far with trespassers. I can only hope that half of my hunting time is not spent dealing with the low lifes...
I understand what your dealing with,been there done that. Just wanted to kinda show both sides of the coin the LO side and the hunters side. It's actually the landowner who is at risk. Many can only rely on their judge of good character in hopes that all goes well when granting permission. One reason why hunters should be honored when granted permission. There are ways of dealing with trespassers with state and local L/E. Once these low lifes get a scare they usually don't return.
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/29 21:09:24
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
One thing for sure.. if a bill would get passed allowing WCOs to enforce for trespassing alone it may help some landowners in not closing their land completely if the Sunday thing ever happens... the fact a landowner has to reply totally on the PSP now does not help them in thinking about posting the no Sudnay hunting thing...
Ok not looking for an argument but what's your opinion on how a WCO is going to help with trespassing on private property ? Example: My 300 acres is posted but I think there are trespassers. The trespassers are gaining acesss from the neighbors adjoining farm. How is a WCO going to catch them and help me prosecute the trespassers ?
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retired guy
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/29 21:32:43
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Just sit back and imagine the 'issues' WCO would be faced with trying to find out if a Hunter had VERBAL permission to hunt or not. Specially with a owner who does not live on or near the property. Wadda you do- take each guy in the woods to the farmers house to see if they are really the guy with permission. No wonder they have linked it to 'another' violation. Just one Hunter could take the WCOs a half day to work out- and ruin the hunt too- thats IF the landowner could be found. How could they check anybody they see hunting without it being in writing- thats the only practical common sence way to establish that as a 'stand alone' violation. He,s the one who has to prove it BEFORE writing a violation. NOT giving an opinion one way or the other on the written thing here- just the WCO and trying to get the job done reasonably. Another thing altogether when the owner is making the complaint and the WCO is shown where the property lines are before the stop. No mistakes that way.
post edited by retired guy - 2011/09/29 21:34:16
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/29 21:48:56
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I think that the only reasonable way a WCO could enforce trespassing laws is to have a list from the L/O of who has permission verbal or written. Again this can put the property owner at risk. Even If the L/O provides a list who's to say that a neighbor kid might not have written and gets cited. Then the L/O says oh, I don't want you to fine him he's my nephew. Lots of issues to deal with.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/29 22:43:00
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I am simply saying that then a landowner would be able to call a WCO or the PSP if he sees someone trespassing.. Not for the WCO to take it upon himself to check if a guy is trespassing.. It would have to be initated by the landowner NOT the WCO ...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/09/29 22:44:22
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retired guy
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/29 22:50:28
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OA_
Run into that garbage even with the written permission thing here. Went out one day to a piece where 3 other guys have permission too. One of them had brought family members with him- I left- too many guys for the property.
Another place a guy brought his 2 kids and his brother and HIS 2 kids. They posted all the kids and since we cant DRIVE they 'walked around'. Pretty much drove the Deer outa there for some time. They did it 2 or 3 days straight.
Some IDIOTS think that cause they have permission to hunt a place they can bring all their friends and family with them. WRONG
Reality of landowner permission is that you can cost yourself the permit by callin in the law on a landowners friend - even if hes wrong. Gotta suck it up.
Some landowners are pretty liberal with the thing too and give way too many folks permission for the size of the property as well. All too often ya find that out a daybreak with guys all over the place.
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/29 22:54:49
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
I am simply saying that then a landowner would be able to call a WCO or the PSP if he sees someone trespassing..
Not for the WCO to take it upon himself to check if a guy is trespassing..
It would have to be initated by the landowner NOT the WCO ...
The landowner can now call the local/state police if he has a trespasser. With a WCO having to cover over 300 miles in their district what makes you think a WCO is going to be any help at all. The only way you could have something done is to have identified the trespasser and prove to L/E they were in fact trespassing on your land.
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/29 23:06:02
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ORIGINAL: retired guy
OA_
  Run into that garbage even with the written permission thing here. Went out one day to a piece where 3 other guys have permission too. One of them had brought family members with him- I left- too many guys for the property.
  Another place a guy brought his 2 kids and his brother and HIS 2 kids. They posted all the kids and since we cant DRIVE they 'walked around'. Pretty much drove the Deer outa there for some time. They did it 2 or 3 days straight.
 Some IDIOTS think that cause they have permission to hunt a place they can bring all their friends and family with them. WRONG
   Reality of landowner permission is that you can cost yourself the permit by callin in the law on a landowners friend - even if hes wrong. Gotta suck it up.
 Some landowners are pretty liberal with the thing too and give way too many folks permission for the size of the property as well. All too often ya find that out a daybreak with guys all over the place.
This is very true. I gave permission to two brothers who are out of state and their bother in law (Pa boy) to access my and other land. This went on for a lot of years. One year one brought his kids, fine. A few years ago they brought out of state friends. Not only did they disrupt things at prime time, they littered up the woods with flagging tape. They are no longer a problem. I also gave a father and son permission to hunt last season. My camera showed that they brought 2 friends. I sent the pictures to them. Most hunter's ruin it for themselves.
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retired guy
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/29 23:11:57
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OA- Glad to hear that- gotta go--they are taking advantage of your good will and someplace deep down inside even an idiot knows it. Have mentioned stuff like that ' in passing' to non hunting landowners and frankly they dont understand bout hunting stuff. If I had one of their other friends and his family and friends pinched we would all be gonzo. Landowners greatest fear- a subpoena to court.
post edited by retired guy - 2011/09/29 23:34:42
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retired guy
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DarDys
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 07:49:34
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ORIGINAL: SilverKype
ORIGINAL: DarDys
ORIGINAL: S-10
Dcnr seemed to thing it was going to matter when suggested/ordered pgc to look into it as a method to kill more deer....
So did the Audubon when they started this thing in about 1999 or thereabouts.
So did Alt. It was one of his goals in the early days.
Sunday hunting has been a stated option to reduce the deer herd in every published discussion of wildlife managers,etc since before AR/HR.
The only ones who don't think it will make a difference are the ones who want to go full speed ahead and damm the torpedos-------BOOOOM
I didn't say it wouldn't make any difference. It will. No doubt.
The question is how much of a difference when weighed against the possible extra hunting time for those that foot the bulk of the PGC bill -- the casual hunter -- in a costs/benefits analysis.
If passed, will you hunt on Sunday?
I think your question has been dismissed.
It shouldn't be.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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SilverKype
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 07:55:02
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My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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S-10
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 08:13:54
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Sunday is my day to do other things. Now I will have to add fighting with folks objecting to my cutting firewood and sc--wing up their hunting. I've yet to get an answer to how Sunday hunting is going to improve the number 1 and #2 greatest reasons for hunters quitting the sport in spite of asking the question 6 or more times. Is the reason because everyone knows it will make the problem WORSE?
To try to claim adding the days the greatest number of hunters have off from work won't have a large negatve effect on game numbers is laughable especially when hnter success is curently below 20% for deer bear and turkey.
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DarDys
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 09:11:12
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ORIGINAL: S-10
Sunday is my day to do other things. Now I will have to add fighting with folks objecting to my cutting firewood and sc--wing up their hunting. I've yet to get an answer to how Sunday hunting is going to improve the number 1 and #2 greatest reasons for hunters quitting the sport in spite of asking the question 6 or more times. Is the reason because everyone knows it will make the problem WORSE?
To try to claim adding the days the greatest number of hunters have off from work won't have a large negatve effect on game numbers is laughable especially when hnter success is curently below 20% for deer bear and turkey.
Again, I never wote that it wouldn't make the "perceived" problem worse. Is there a perceived lack of fish problem with regard to steelhead? Some say there is. Is there a perceived lack of access problem with regard to steelhead? Some say there is. How real are those two problems? How real is the lack of game and lack of places ot hunt? The question becomes, how much worse can it get and is the cost of it getting worse worth the benefit of extra hunting days for those that are not retired, have tons of vacation, indepently wealthy, unemployed, etc. If you want to do other things on Sunday than hunt, have at it. If sunday hunting passes, no one is stopping you. There are those that would like to hunt. So would you agree that Sunday hunting will have a neglible affect on any species other than deer, bear, and turkey? Please explain how there will be a large negative effect on those speices. How many more bears will be harvest (killed, whatever) if the season changes from Saturday, Monday, Tuesday to Saturday, Sunday, Monday? How many more deer will be harvested? How many more turkeys will be harvested?
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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treesparrow
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 11:05:54
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This business with WCOs not being able to procecute for trespassing is not right. They can fine for littering and underaged drinking and all kinds of non game law violations. I have heard the argument about how they are spread to thin and I dont care. If it is a licenced hunter they should be able and responsive to a landowners problem. Perhaps if they were helping landowners more landowners would open land to those that are responsible to ask. Hunters that I have granted permision to hunt my properties have been great and respected my rules for the most part. I have had to kick some off for not following my rules. Some I should kick off because I know but can not prove they have violated my rules. Rules are simple, no deer drives, no permanant stands, no damage to trees, no litter,and safe ethical conduct. I have had small hemlocks cut for shooting lanes,piles of litter(candy bar wrappers,pop and beer cans),tree stands with cutters and screw ins, and target practicing with target on tree. Plus lying to me about taking game. Why lie I am allways pleased when someone is succesful. I was asked by a friend if two State Troopers could hunt bear on property I own and I granted permision. Now I have a partner on this property and he goes in and finds three pickups and one is sitting in one of our shanties. I tid my friend when he asked for permision that I didn't want them in stands, and was also told there would only be two hunters. Two hunters-three pickups? It was another cop that cut the hemlocks down for shooting lane. I would still give permision to a law enforcement officer but how far am I going to get calling a St. Trooper on another St. Trooper.
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treesparrow
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 11:07:34
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Forgive me somewhat for lots of the last post I just turned it into an angry rant.
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 11:44:27
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S-10, would your opinion change on things if you were not retired? For me, I picked up a few more days to hunt with the job change last year, but I am essentially still a Saturday warrior. I often here people state that I used to hunt, but really don't have time anymore. As a retiree with SH, you can still go play bingo, or go to the park and yell at today's "young punks" (only kidding)
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S-10
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 11:45:16
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Please explain how there will be a large negative effect on those speices. How many more bears will be harvest (killed, whatever) if the season changes from Saturday, Monday, Tuesday to Saturday, Sunday, Monday? How many more deer will be harvested? How many more turkeys will be harvested? It has already been proven over the years that the first day and the Saturdays of any season has always resulted in the largest harvest of any game species. That is because those are the days when the most hunters are afield. Now you are trying to say that adding the days when even more hunters have off is not going to have a large negative effect on the harvest flies in the face of reality and common sense. As far as a percieved lack of game it is a documented lack of game by the PGC itself in their game take surveys and wildlife estimations. It is also something you yourself have been quite vocial about over the years.
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dpms
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 11:54:31
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ORIGINAL: S-10
Now you are trying to say that adding the days when even more hunters have off is not going to have a large negative effect on the harvest flies in the face of reality and common sense. Sure some more game will be harvested. The question is will it be enough to matter to most or be statisically large enough to warrant change. Bear Saturday opener, afternoon gobbler hunting, 2 weeks of rut archery, full crossbow inclusion, junior and senior early rifle, week early muzzleloder, rabbits and squirrels for weeks etc... All pretty good examples of additonal high harvest days added with little more than a blip. The opportunities that those changes brought far outweigh any slight increase in harvest as a result, IMO.
post edited by dpms - 2011/09/30 12:01:51
My rifle is a black rifle
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S-10
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 11:54:45
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S-10, would your opinion change on things if you were not retired? Nope, If the deer and turkey numbers were up to where they were in 2000 I wouldn't be nearly so vocial against it but I still wouldn't vote for it. Sunday Hunting will lead to more posted land. No one really knows how much. Sunday hunting will further reduce all game species. Giving someone more days to hunt and see fewer animals never did anything but further discourage hunters and the junior hunter dropouts indicate that. It's not how many days you get to hunt, it's the quality of the hunt itself as judged by the action you get on the days you do get out.
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S-10
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 12:02:00
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Sure some more game will be harvested. The question is will it be enough to matter to most or be statisically large enough to warrant change. Since the PGC doesn't think a statistial varience in their deer estimation of plus or minus 30% matters I won't even debate that issue. Hell, they know they have a 7-8% inflation in the total harvest numbers now and say 'So What". If Alt, the Audubon, and DCNR to name a few, didn't think Sunday hunting would make a significant difference in reducing the deer herd why have they been pushing it since 2000.
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dpms
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 12:05:17
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ORIGINAL: S-10
If Alt, the Audubon, and DCNR to name a few, didn't think Sunday hunting would make a significant difference in reducing the deer herd why have they been pushing it since 2000.
You would have to ask them. For me it is about game agencies making those decisions and increased opportunities for those that choose to partake if a change is implemented.
My rifle is a black rifle
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bulldog1
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 12:13:56
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Not sure if it's still this way, but a friend of mine from Canada told me once that if land was posted no hunting it was enforced by their game dept. only sticker was that if ground was posted NOBODY hunted it, not even the owner was allowed. I post mine every couple of years, but like a pad lock, the signs only keep out folks you wouldn't mind having there. If WCO's start policing trespassers, they'll never get anything else done... Sunday hunting is fine with me, but let's make it afternoon only, give everybody time to go to church and then miss the football game to go hunting... 
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S-10
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 12:13:57
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Bear Saturday opener, afternoon gobbler hunting, 2 weeks of rut archery, full crossbow inclusion, junior and senior early rifle, week early muzzleloder, rabbits and squirrels for weeks etc... All pretty good examples of additonal high harvest days added with little more than a blip. They started bear on Sat to INCREASE the bear kill. They started afternoon gobbler in spite of the flock being down over 30% and we don't know what the results of that will be. Your crazy if you think the 2 weeks hunting the rut didn't jump the kill. Ask DarDys The archery kill jumped from the low 20's to 30%+ when they went to crossgun which increased the inflation of the total deer kill because they ue incorrect data to calculate archery harvests. The #1 reason for people dropping out of hunting is LACK OF GAME---all the items you mentioned contributed to LACK OF GAME. I hardly call losing our hunters faster than than the national average or losing our deer hunters 10 times faster than hunters in general a BLIP.
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S-10
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 12:21:15
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quote:
ORIGINAL: S-10
If Alt, the Audubon, and DCNR to name a few, didn't think Sunday hunting would make a significant difference in reducing the deer herd why have they been pushing it since 2000.
You would have to ask them. For me it is about game agencies making those decisions and increased opportunities for those that choose to partake if a change is implemented. Lets see---Alt was the game agency, The game agency has been following nearly everything that the Audubon sponsered forum wanted, and the DCNR controls some of the PGC's purse strings. Whose side are you on?
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DarDys
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 13:31:15
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ORIGINAL: S-10
Please explain how there will be a large negative effect on those speices. How many more bears will be harvest (killed, whatever) if the season changes from Saturday, Monday, Tuesday to Saturday, Sunday, Monday? How many more deer will be harvested? How many more turkeys will be harvested?
It has already been proven over the years that the first day and the Saturdays of any season has always resulted in the largest harvest of any game species. That is because those are the days when the most hunters are afield.
Now you are trying to say that adding the days when even more hunters have off is not going to have a large negative effect on the harvest flies in the face of reality and common sense. As far as a percieved lack of game it is a documented lack of game by the PGC itself in their game take surveys and wildlife estimations. It is also something you yourself have been quite vocial about over the years.
This is exactly my point. I don't recall the exact percentages, but I believe the first day of firearms season accounts for 60% of the harvest (kill, whatever) and the 1st Saturday is another 15% (20%?). In other words, 75% to 80% of the tags are filled and those hunters will never see that Sunday. Nothing has changed at all up to that point. Now on that Sunday there will be deer harvested (killed, whatever), but the questions which no one can answer is how many, how many of those would be killed the next week any way, how many are going to actually participate, etc. And yes, I am vocal about the lack of game, particularly deer. But I don't see Sunday hunitng having a large impact. At least not enough to deny the opportunity to hunt to those that may need that day in oder to do so.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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wayne c
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RE: For the sunday hunting lovers/haters
2011/09/30 14:17:58
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Sure some more game will be harvested. The question is will it be enough to matter to most or be statisically large enough to warrant change. Of course not. Not as long as it is something that equals LESS deer. If the herd were decreased by a small percentage because of it, and the same occurred the next year, that "insignificant" issue gains in significance. Just like the ridiculous continued reduction in units where stabilization was supposed to be the goal for years, but its still considered stabilization by them because even though its a steady decline, its not a "big" futher decline from one year to the next. That is a joke. But if that herd were INCREASING by 2% each year for 3 out of 4 years, they would declare all out war on the friggin deer herd. There is a double standard and its bull-. "Bear Saturday opener, afternoon gobbler hunting, 2 weeks of rut archery, full crossbow inclusion, junior and senior early rifle, week early muzzleloder, rabbits and squirrels for weeks etc... All pretty good examples of additonal high harvest days added with little more than a blip. " Are you kidding me? You want to speak of those low particiation seasons and compare to rifle deer with a straight face?? There would probably be more hunters afield on that one day of rifle season being added than were added in ALL of those seasons combined! And vying for an already strained resource. But lets just ignore that eh dpsm? Pgc wants sunday hunting to add to the arsenal NOW, so sunday hunting there must be.
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