Elk County Game Lands Tour

GAME   LANDS  Habitat &  DEER MANAGEMENT   TOUR
 
Saturday – June 4th, 2011 – 1:00 PM
Elk County State Game Lands # 44
 
This will be a tour of habitat work and various projects that profile deer management issues in the state and the local areas
and also
small game habitat improvements on the new parcels of SGL# 044.
         
The tour is free and open to the public .
 
Wear clothing and boots suitable for short walks in the woods and fields. Jackets or rain gear may be needed dependent upon the weather conditions.
 
High clearance vehicles are preferred, though four-wheel drive is not needed, as you use your vehicle to travel to various locations on the game lands.
 
The tour starts at 1:00 PM at the Old CCC Camps in Carmen, site of the present day Game Commission Food & Cover Crew Headquarters, located on Game Commission Road.
 
 Take Route 949 South out of Ridgway for approx. 8 miles – just prior to the twin bridges that cross over the railroad tracks and Toby Creek turn left onto Game Commission Road. This is approx. 1 mile north of Portland Mills  on Rt. 949.

John, RSB, his wife and M-I-L serve up a great meal after the tour...

Even if someone would attend and not learn a think the meal afterwards would be worth the time.. but I have yet to meet anyone that has attended and NOT learned something....

I may go for trip #6 .. see what's happening since the last one I was on
1.5 years ago...

Deleted post.... 
 

ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures

This is one of the nicest Game lands around. Hasn't been destroyed by gas wells. Yet. RSB, you the one serving hot dogs ?

 
They are working on putting wells on it right now.
 
The menu hasn’t been set yet but my wife should be handling the food service for the spring tour. Sometimes she is working the farm market during the fall tour and I have to put together the food for the day. People never need to leave hungry though at either tour.
 
R.S. Bodenhorn

"Actually we typically have about 30-40 people and most of them are people have never attended on or hadn’t been on one for several years."

Thats news to me. From what ive heard of the tours anyway, including most of yours. And as for Most vids ive seen of these tours in other areas, and the stories told from those that attend would make 30 or 40 people a banner attendance, and probably set a record. And i know of quite a few of the usuals that attend often. Unless of course they all are lying according to you?? Heck even doc is living proof, he just said he attended 5 and was thinking about making it number 6! And i wasnt even talking about HIM! lol.

"A few do come back every couple years to see if the habitat is changing both inside and outside the fences."

Yeah. Thats their motive. lol. Try moral support for events that dont fair so well. And its hardly "a few" lol. Now dont get me wrong, im not speaking of solely the tours in your area, im talking about MANY of them including but not limited to.

"If any of those that have attended didn’t find the tour both informative and correct they never had enough guts to admit it. I know there have been a number who attended that wrote nice letters to the Commission about the tour."

Probably some of the "audubon crew" no doubt, that was touring on one of the youtube vids.

"After all people learning the truth about the issues is your worst enemy."

No. You seldom tell the truth, thats why YOU see ME as an enemy. Case in point, the other thread where i pointed out your deception about 2a. Perhaps you simply made a mistake as any of us can do from time to time......But i dont think that the case, because as usual, youve made no attempt to admit you were wrong or correct the 100% inaccurate and misleading statements that you made here or on other boards where the same statement was made. Wouldnt that suggest purposeful intent to decieve??

Just for fun here's a pic from the last one I was on...

BTW I just enjoy going to see what has changed from one year to another plus.. I usually have ask and have guests with me for the tour...

here's a pic that 20 show up in .. plus the photgrapher... now on the right side you see part of a blue shirt and tip of a hat.. thats' me...



Now here's the guy in the blue shirt and hat with guests from the PFSC and UBP...and another photgrapher...so there's photos of 25 of those in attendance at that one... If memory serves me there was 32 in all on the tour that day...

If you look for legs and hair etc there's 20..

I'd have no reason not to tell the truth as to how many were there...At that one there were 2 PGC staff (RSB and John), one forester, those are the regulars... me (off and on) and the rest were 1st timers as far as I know... I never saw any of them at tour there before... naturally I had seen my guests before


you were not there and are just stirring the pot trying to take away from good topic and a good experience for anyone willing to learn something about deer, habitat, wildlife, wildflowers,the PGC, history of the area, etc etc...

I do not even know who "dutch" is.. so can't say if he was there or not.. never met him and RSB usually has everyone introduce themselves before we start....

this is one of those PGC sponsored events that guys like you NEVER attend.. that way you can say what ever you want trying to belittle the event or those that go and learn for themselves rather than read internet BS .. like the stuff you are writing now about the SGL44 tours...

ORIGINAL: wayne c



More of our money wasted unfortunately. These enlightenment attempts arent doing a thing to change public perceptions about much of anything. Nor should they.

 
 I think I might go just to see how there are no deer left up north. I for one have never attended , so Im sure it will worth the time and petrol costs. As for a waste of money, you obviously have more fecal matter than gray matter for brains. While I dont accept everything the PGC presents as gospel, I am willing to go on a walk and see what they present.  I think its a great use of money, what if 1 family takes thier kids on this and exposes them to something new, maybe sparks an interest in the outdoors, how much money was wasted. No matter what the PGC does or presents that doesnt put a deer behind every tree for inept hunters like yourself to shoot, it  will be viewed as smoke and mirrors, trying to cover up the great deer slaughter conspiracy you think exists

"As for a waste of money, you obviously have more fecal matter than gray matter for brains."

Just because you do, doesnt mean everyone esle does. And i think we can all tell how it got there. From having your head buried up...

Pretty clear you just want to argue and be a blowhard. You even admitted you didnt have a clue what they were all about, but attack me because i do and think they are a joke? lol. ...Dont like my views? Tough. I'll post the facts and if you dont like it go ahead and Attack away son. You arent gonna stop it with your nonsensical extremist brand of theatrics. As if anyone is concerned about your insults lmao.

If putting on a show for 10 to 20 (without even subtracting the organizers etc.)people per tour isnt a waste of money, i dont know what is. I feel perfectly fine in voicing an opinion as well, since I am one of the folks that pay the bills for every bit of nonsense that pgc decides to implement. Dont worry though, theyll ignore it. Thats what the current crew at pgc is known for. Ignoring hunters.

"While I dont accept everything the PGC presents as gospel,"

Oh no. Of course not. Not you. Youre a real anti-pgc rebel. lmao.

"No matter what the PGC does or presents that doesnt put a deer behind every tree for inept hunters like yourself to shoot,"

This years archery kill buck was posted on here. Guess you missed it. Or maybe it was a roadkill i found. Either way fine with me. Then again, ive probably crapped more hunting knowledge about an hour ago then you possess. But keep running your trap "expert", those of us that actually know how to hunt general sit back and snicker when we hear blow hards who think they are Jackie Bushman Jrs. lmao

As for "the plan" I dont care if someone is the greatest hunter in Pa or the worst. With the failing miserable plan in place, hunting is not as good as it would be otherwise. Period. And more importantly, its also not "all about me". Some shortsighted greedy nimrods need to learn that.

"trying to cover up the great deer slaughter conspiracy you think exists"

I dont think anything. It is what it is.

See Evelands findings. You might learn something.

Anyway, sincerely, have fun with the tour. Im sure you'll fit right in with the 8 or9 regulars. that is, if you arent already one of them. They seem to love to do damage control on these pgc topics for some reason.

Btw, i see you posted pretty early this a.m. Musta got that bird early eh? Or trying to fire one up from the ol' 'puter chair? Ha ha ha.

"I don’t see you as the enemy. If you want to know the truth I see you as an Internet punk who is really mostly his own worst enemy. "

Guess we can see why you were ordered by your superiors to get rid of the "W.C.O" moniker you used to have on all of your posts. Great rep for the agency on these boards. Anyway, no big deal, Ive been called worse. And thats fine too. Because i probably have even less respect for your "character" due to the extreme honesty issues, and how poorly you view hunters and have come right out and said so on several occaisions. And the lack of honesty and integrity, thats something i personally abhor. Perhaps it is just due to the values that were instilled in me at an early age i guess.

I honestly see you as an environmental extremist who will say absolutely anything regardless of level of honesty just to promote a ridiculous agenda being pushed by some. I see it from a small handful that have done the same for years on several of the message boards.

"I certainly don’t have anything to retract about my 2A comments from the other hunting message board."

Thats fine. Let the 100% inaccuracies that you now know to exist stand then. Its your honor thats in question with the decision, not mine. Ive shown you that your statement as made was physically impossible.

"I don’t know if my expectations of why the 2A deer population is declining yet but I don’t know there are plenty of early indications that don’t sound too favorable for the future of unit 2A if they don’t manage to get the deer herd reduced to levels that are balanced with the habitat."

Yeah, we have habitat assessment that the audit even said the data was inadequate, and we have a declining fawn to doe ratio which is clearly due to the predation.... Which the level of coyotes and b'cat in this unit has SKYROCKETED since 10 years ago, and thats not my opinion its fact. Most around here hadnt seen one or the other in a lifetime living here. I had hunted for decades without seeing one, and that included alot of fox calling. Now i see a couple of cats & yotes every single year as due most of my hunting partners...all across the unit! Previously they were VERY few and far between, now they are commonplace. But Rosenberry said predation wasnt a problem, and we knew that because the fawn to do ratios were fine in the predator assessment drivel....Now he says the fawn to doe ratio has declined so its now blamed on herd health and not predation. lol. One scam after another from pgc.

"One person reported finding five dead deer they believe to be winter mortality in unit 2A."

Yeah, one of the most infamous nontruthtelling _(PROVEN) eco-extremist and some even believe antihunter on the message board. GTF. Put anything she says together with 50 cents and it wont even get you a soda. 5 deer are hardly indicative of the unit if it even were true. lmao. She also said she had no idea of the cause of death and all but one were very old. (and most likely wounded lost animals) lol. Nice spin though.

"But, then I would expect an Internet Armchair Biologist, like you,"

Oh no, im no expert. Only problem is for you guys is taht im not moron either. I'm intelligent enough to read, comprehend and use very basic logic and common sense. Thats all ive done all along. Im not trying to write "the complete guidebook to state deer management" here.

"to arrive at a totally different opinion. I heard those Armchair Biologists telling everyone the deer populations could increase to unlimited numbers in 2G for decades too."

Thats funny, i dont recall hearing ANYONE say that about 2g or 2a, or anywhere in between. Thats every bit as much nonsense as saying that we could have and should have unlimited tags and even with 55000 tags or more we should have herd INCREASE if the habitat were "good" according to you. lol.

ORIGINAL: deerfly

But, then I would expect an Internet Armchair Biologist, like you, to arrive at a totally different opinion. I heard those Armchair Biologists telling everyone the deer populations could increase to unlimited numbers in 2G for decades too.  
 

You are just as wrong as the PGC biologists were back in 1974 when we had around 700K preseason deer and the PGC stated the habitat couldn't possibly support 1 M deer. Here is what they said would happen if the herd every increased to 1M deer.

"In the spring, the birthrate would be lower. Many fawns would die before reaching maturity. Bucks would grow spindly antlers and drop in body weight. Quality would be completely over shadowed by quantity."

But none of those gloom and doom came true and the herd was just as healthy when we had 1.6 M PS deer in 2001 as it was in 1974 with just 700K deer . Furthermore, since breeding rates and recruitment didn't increase as the herd was reduced it is obvious that our herd of 1.6M deer was just as healthy as our current herd.

So the PGC experts were wrong in 1974 ,just as Alt and RSB were wrong in 2000, so we have beenthere and done that over and over again!!

 
You are correct that the 1974 Biologists were wrong in their comment about what would happen if the total number of deer in the state exceeded one million. But they were only wrong because they were assuming the deer population would still be contained to only about half of the state as it was prior to those years.
 
I now appears they were correct about what would happen if the deer population exceeded a million in the half of the state where the deer herd existed at that time. In fact what they predicted did come true in many of the parts of the state that typically held the deer populations of 1974. 
 
To show where the deer populations were in 1974 or today all we need to do is look at how the deer harvests for the various areas of the state compare with amount of land mass.
 
Let’s go ahead and look at how the deer harvests compared with the land mass for the six geographical regions of the state back in 1974, then we will look at the harvests of today’s WMU.
 
1974 harvest results by region:
 
Area………………% of land mass……………..% of harvest
Northwest……………..15.4 %……………………..20.9 %
Northcentral…………..20.4 %……………………..29.0 %
Northeast………………16.8 %…………………….19.3 %
Southwest……………..17.1 %……………………..11.8 %
Southcentral…………..14.2 %……………………..12.6 %
Southeast……………...16.2 %……………………..6.5 %
 
Total northern tier……..52.5 %…………………….69.1 %
Total southern tier……..47.5 %…………………….30.9 %
 
It is pretty easy to see that back in 1974 the northern tier and especially the north central part of the state was where the deer populations were and there were darn few deer in much of the southern tier.
 
Things have changed in where the deer exist today though based on where the highest harvests come from in recent years. To see that all a person has to do is look at where the highest deer harvests came from last year when compared to the amount of landmass.
 
2010 harvest results by WMU:
 
Unit…………….% land mass…………….% of harvest………..significant difference 
1A…………………4.1 %…………………….5.6 %…………….+
1B…………………4.7 %…………………….4.6 %
2A…………………4.0 %…………………….6.1 %…………….+
2B…………………3.0 %…………………….5.4 %…………….+
2C…………………6.8 %…………………….5.7 %
2D…………………5.5 %…………………….9.3 %……………+
2E…………………2.8 %…………………….3.2 %
2F…………………5.3 %…………………….3.8 %……………. -
2G………………... 9.1 %…………………….3.3 %……………. -
3A……………….…3.3 %……………………3.3 %
3B………………….5.0 %……………………4.1 %
3C………………….4.8 %……………………3.0 %……………. -
3D………………….4.8 %……………………3.0 %……………. -
4A………………….3.8 %……………………3.2 %
4B………………….3.5 %……………………3.0 %
4C………………….4.0 %……………………4.5 %
4D………………….6.1 %……………………3.7 %……………. –
4E…………………..3.8 %……………………3.4 %
5A………………….2.9 %……………………1.8 %
5B………………….6.1 %……………………6.1 %
5C………………….4.8 %…………………..10.6 %…………….+
5D………………….1.8 %……………………1.5 %
 
It all looks pretty clear and convincing to me that the 1974 Biologists pretty well hit the mark with their predictions for the old 1974 traditional deer areas of the northern tier. Just pull out a digest and take a look at where the deer harvests have declined and increased the most compared to where the highest and lowest harvests had been back then.
 
R.S. Bodenhorn

One of the few places that a positive thread such as this turns to crap.  Pathetic.

ORIGINAL: deerfly

Just what is positive about a thread about a tour that is designed to mislead and deceive those that attend. RSB has continually claimed that the habitat in his area was responsible for reducing the herd in 2G to 8 DPSM,while intentionally ignoring the effects of the antlerless harvests. How could anyone learn anything positive from someone that has such biased and irrational view of deer management?

 
That about sums up my point.  The thread is about a tour of a game lands and habitat improvements for small game.  Go and help if you want.  Otherwise, leave the personal vendettas out of it.
 
You can start yet another thread about your dissatisfaction with the DMP.  

"This will be a tour of habitat work and various projects that profile deer management issues in the state and the local areas
and also
small game habitat improvements on the new parcels of SGL# 044"
 
Pretty sure you didn't miss the above as well. 
 
You should start your own tours and habitat projects instead of highjacking others.

Yep.