"So, we're shooting for going back to the days where we saw 20 or more deer in a day, 19 does and one spike? Man, that's progress."
 
Danes,
 
Did you actually witness situations such as this or are you taking someone's cliche' about it?
 
I have hunted 37 years in PA and have never seen that.  I have had days were I saw 60+ deer, but there were always a number of bucks mixed in and they weren't all spikes.  In fact, over those years I have seen exactly two spikes -- one I killed and one I saw an extened day of doe season back in the old days.

That was me that has seen 17 over the past two years.

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

I have seen that many many times Shawn. It's not some cliche' just because you haven't experienced it.


The first buck I ever shot was lagging behind over 20 baldies. Some of them probably button bucks. Time and time again I've seen a single buck following a pile of antlerless deer. One at Ag days dad and I watched 55 (and yes we counted) deer single file walk across the road. Not an antler in the group. Quite a common occurance.

As for spikes, I recall stating I saw 17 two years ago.


37 years sounds like a long time. And it's easy to interpret that as such. But when you spend 2-3 days a year out of those 37 deer hunting, it's really not all that much time. That's like saying your tires on your vehicle lasted 23 years, while true, the fact that you only drove 40,000 miles in those 23 years is what allowed the life of the tires to go that long. They are not really that great of tire, just not used much. You get the point. And that's not a personal whack at you, it's just the reality of it.

 
Jon,
 
I am not saying that it isn't true, I am asking because I haven't seen it.
 
You are right about 37 years not being a long time, especially during the one and done years when most of my deer hunting lasted about an hour or so.

Before concurrent seasons you always saw a bunch of doe with trailing bucks, as the day or season wore on and the deer banded in herds with the bucks getting shot and the does not the herds naturally contained fewer and fewer bucks. Now the doe has an equal chance of being shot at the start of the season. As far as spikes, I've seen just as many since AR/HR as before. I've fed two of them this winter. TROPHIES for SURE in 2010. We shall see.

Probably lots of spots that never needed HR Shawn. But how could they be identified ? And managed in a realistic way? May not be possible on a state-wide basis.

Sounds like your buck:doe ratio before HR may have been better than many public property spots. I remember having 3 bucks come to me one morning, before AR. Best thing ever ! Never saw such a thing. Always was 1 buck, and a bunch of doe. Or just all doe.


Your hunting time has increased probably because hunting is now harder than it was years ago. You've got to put in more time to get the same results ? Being unemployed will allow more time too.

ORIGINAL: spoonchucker

"Yes, because they are making it less convienent for hunters to shoot doe."

I would imagine, that cutting allocations, would make it fairly "inconvenient" for those that don't get a permit. 

What it may come down to is: Do I use extra vacation to hunt the second week (giving up time with my family), or do I want to give up going on opening day (better than xmas for me) to go during the second week, or should I hunt in another WMU that still has concurrent seasons? It sounds like the PGC is basing saving some does on how I decide to allocate my hunting time and spots! That is a ridiculous way to manage the herd!

If they lowered the allocation, and I didn't get a tag for that WMU, my decision would be made for me, I'd go to a WMU where I had a doe tag, or I'd hunt only bucks.

ORIGINAL: DanesDad

ORIGINAL: DarDys

"So, we're shooting for going back to the days where we saw 20 or more deer in a day, 19 does and one spike? Man, that's progress."

Danes,

Did you actually witness situations such as this or are you taking someone's cliche' about it?

I have hunted 37 years in PA and have never seen that.  I have had days were I saw 60+ deer, but there were always a number of bucks mixed in and they weren't all spikes.  In fact, over those years I have seen exactly two spikes -- one I killed and one I saw an extened day of doe season back in the old days.

One year in Indiana county I saw 40 deer on opening day. Not all at once, but in groups of three to maybe eight at a time. All bald. Last time I saw any deer in Forest county while hunting: 8 in a line, no horns. In fact, I think I could say, with no exagerration that I've seen eight or ten antlerless deer for every buck I've seen in my entire life. That trend has only changed since AR/HR. Now, I see a lot more sub legal bucks. It may sound cliche, but for me it's the reality.

 
That's why I was asking -- to learn something.

ORIGINAL: DarDys

ORIGINAL: DanesDad

ORIGINAL: DarDys

"So, we're shooting for going back to the days where we saw 20 or more deer in a day, 19 does and one spike? Man, that's progress."

Danes,

Did you actually witness situations such as this or are you taking someone's cliche' about it?

I have hunted 37 years in PA and have never seen that.  I have had days were I saw 60+ deer, but there were always a number of bucks mixed in and they weren't all spikes.  In fact, over those years I have seen exactly two spikes -- one I killed and one I saw an extened day of doe season back in the old days.

One year in Indiana county I saw 40 deer on opening day. Not all at once, but in groups of three to maybe eight at a time. All bald. Last time I saw any deer in Forest county while hunting: 8 in a line, no horns. In fact, I think I could say, with no exagerration that I've seen eight or ten antlerless deer for every buck I've seen in my entire life. That trend has only changed since AR/HR. Now, I see a lot more sub legal bucks. It may sound cliche, but for me it's the reality.

That's why I was asking -- to learn something.

My experiences lead me to believe that does far outnumbered bucks in those days. It only stands to reason. Bucks were shot by the first hunter that saw them, over a two week season. Then we had a short season after that, late in the calendar year, when many guys had used up their vacation. Plus it was one and done then, so that probably saved some does too. There was no guarantee that you got a doe tag back then either (I can remember when that tag wasn't the slam dunk it is today). Add to that the fact that weather on those three days wildly effected the harvest. Considering all of this, it is no wonder the herd was so out of whack. I truly believe that we did things wrong back then, even tho I saw more deer back then than I do now.

How would I convince commissioners that are politically posturing for the license increase at the expense of the deer program? I think if it was up to Boop, we wouldn't shoot antlerless deer at all!

Danes....
 
you wrote..
 

Then we had a short season after that, late in the calendar year, when many guys had used up their vacation. Plus it was one and done then, so that probably saved some does too.

 
How far back in history are you going to get "one and done" for deer hunting in Pennsylvanina ???????
 
 

ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout

Danes....

you wrote..

Then we had a short season after that, late in the calendar year, when many guys had used up their vacation. Plus it was one and done then, so that probably saved some does too.

How far back in history are you going to get "one and done" for deer hunting in Pennsylvanina ???????

 
I recall one and done too Doc.  I can't be sure, but it was probably at least until the mid to late 70's, perhaps early 80's. 
 
I also recall not drawing a doe tag.  It was an annual event for us to drive to Clearfield the Sunday before doe applications were to be accepted in order to put them in the mail at the post offcie which was outside of the courthouse in an effort to get them there quicker.
 
Sometimes this worked, sometimes it didn't.  Since the tags were handed out on a first-come-first-served basis and not a lottery, there was actually a controversy that it really didn't matter when the application got there (within the first week) because the Clearfield County Treasurer during one period of time would grant tags to those that had a Clearfield County return address on them first and then dole out whatever was left, if there were any left, to out-of-county applicants (which we were).  It was a very powerful vote getting move for that day and age.  Politics, even on the county level, has been meddling in deer hunting for a very long time.

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

Doe tags were called bonus tags then. If you didn't get one, you had one tag to fill... buck or doe. 4 weeks archery. 2 week buck. 3 day doe the following monday. That was in the early 90's.

 
I'm not sure that is correct Jon.  They were always called doe tags back in one and done.  If you had a doe tag and killed a buck, the doe tag was void.  This would have been before your time.
 
In the 90's if you had a doe tag, you were allowed a buck and a doe.  In addition, if there were any tags left over in the county, you could buy an additional doe tag which was called a bonus tag. 

ORIGINAL: DarDys

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

Doe tags were called bonus tags then. If you didn't get one, you had one tag to fill... buck or doe. 4 weeks archery. 2 week buck. 3 day doe the following monday. That was in the early 90's.

I'm not sure that is correct Jon.  They were always called doe tags back in one and done.  If you had a doe tag and killed a buck, the doe tag was void.  This would have been before your time.

In the 90's if you had a doe tag, you were allowed a buck and a doe.  In addition, if there were any tags left over in the county, you could buy an additional doe tag which was called a bonus tag. 

I recall dad passing a huge doe the first day of archery one year, because it would have ended his season. But he wanted to shoot it because of her size. Before my time may not be entirely accurate, because I climbed trees and sat with dad in double trees before I was 12.. probably like 7. Maybe this was then. I'm about 99% sure I had a bow in my hand that day.

Musky is correct--they did away with "one and done" for a few areas( I think around Phili) in 1987 as a trial and implemented it statewide in 1988. With fewer deer hunters every year and the continued push for herd reduction in most areas you will never see "one and done" again. It really wasn't a very good way to control the doe population and probably contributed to the large herds of antleress deer in the early days. I think that's when they started calling them bonus tags, the second deer being the bonus for those with the tag.

Trout: I started hunting in 1977 and it was definitely one and done. And, in Indiana county, if you didn't have a return address that was from that county, the odds of you getting a doe tag were less than 50-50.