Beginners Questions

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NedBeatty
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2008/12/16 09:43:02 (permalink)

Beginners Questions

I've been away so long I feel like a beginner.  Here are a few basic questions I have that might help me understand fly fishing a little better.   I get a little confused with alot of the sub-classifications of Wet and Dry Flies.    I pretty much understand what Dry Flies are.   It's the Wet Flies that I have a problem with.

Can Nymphs, Streamers, Muddlers all be considered Wet Flies?    If they are all Wet Flies is there any difference in the preferred fly line that I would use for fishing Nymphs vs Streamers vs Muddlers vs standard Wet Flies?    If I have a WF 7 F/S fly line available would it work for Nymphs, Streamers, Muddlers or standard Wet Flies?    I also have a WF 7 S fly line.  In terms of Nymphs, Streamers,  Muddlers and standard Wet Flies are there instances when I would want to use the WF 7 S line vs the WF 7 F/S?

Can Emergers and Spinners be safely classified as Dry Flies?  

post edited by NedBeatty - 2008/12/16 10:00:15
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    FishingBoz
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2008/12/16 11:03:16 (permalink)
    Fly classification depends on how technical you want to get and who you are talking to. In my experience, most people use Wet Fly to refer to either nymphs or soft hackle wet flies. These are flies that are generally meant to be fished dead drift, under the water. Streamers are generally refering to flies that are made to be fished actively using some kind of retrieve. Muddlers are hard to classify because they can fished on the surface as a grasshopper (dry fly) or lower in the water column as a minnow imitation (streamer). Spinners are generally fished on top and classified as dry flies. Emergers are generally fished near the surface, but beneath the surface film and I would therefor classify them as wets. Fly classification is not an exact science and you will likely hear other definitions. Some of it has to do as much with the way the fly is being fished as the fly itself. Personally I like to use: Nymphs, Wets (soft hackles), streamers and drys as the major classifications.
     
    Lines classified as "F/S" are floating lines with a sinking tip section. The length of the floating tip varies as does the sink rate. You can fish underwater flies (nymphs, wets and streamers) using floating, sink tip or full sinking (the ones with just "S") lines depending on how you are fishing them. Dead drift nymphing is usually done with a floating line and only the leader sinks with the nymph. In fast moving water or when fishing streamers in deeper water a sinking tip or full sinking line can be used to help get the fly near the bottom. Full sink lines generally go deeper and sink faster than sink tip lines.
     
    Hope this helps. 
    #2
    doubletaper
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2008/12/16 11:34:43 (permalink)
    i'll try to help the best i can.
     
    wet flies are generaly considered a mayflies imitation that is fished just below the surface. thier wings may be down wings or a soft hen hackle tied just behind the hook eye. thus they'll have mayfly names such as quill gordon, blue duns, hendricksons etc. some even consider insects fished below the surface as wet flies.
     
    a soft-hackle is an attractor pattern. usually tied with long soft hackle just behind the hook eye. partridge/grouse. some consider these as wet flies also since they are mostly fished just sub-surface. they usually go by names of yellow & partridge etc.
     
    a nymph is one of the first stages of a mayfly that is fished on the bottom or close enough. usually consisting of wing pads on the thorax. these are generally both exact mayfly imitations or attractors such as a pheasant tail nymph.
     
    larva is one of the first stages of a caddis fly. again some will consider these as nymphs.
     
    woolly buggers, bucktail streamers as well as muddlers sort of fit in the same catagory as streamers. they imitate bait fish.
     
    terrestrials are insects that fall into the water such as ants, spiders, hoppers.
     
    emergers are flies ready to surface to take flight. thus fishing these just subsurface and lifting the rod up at the end of a drift to "emerge"
     
    parachutes are a type of tie that lets the body of the fly rest on the water instead of slightly above the water as a regular dry fly with hackling whch are generaly called catskill ties.
     
    hope this helps. ~dt
     
     

    http://streamsidetales.bl...015/05/helles-yea.html
    it's not luck
    if success is consistent 





    #3
    NedBeatty
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2008/12/16 12:27:28 (permalink)
    FishingBoz & DoubleTaper, thank you both for your detailed answers.  Very helpful.   Just a couple of follow-up questions:
     
    It sounds like emergers, although technically a wet fly can be presented with a floating or dry fly line relying on a little lack of buoyancy of the fly itself to keep it just below the surface and to pick up the rod tip at the end of a drift to make it emerge, am I reading you correctly?   Or would I be better off buying a very slow sinking wet line for emergers?
     
    I think both my WF 7 S and my WF 7 F/S are fast sinking lines and if so, would be more suitable for nymphs, correct?    I thought the main advantage of an F/S line over an S line is that you are more easily able to detect a strike with an F/S line, is that correct?
    #4
    NedBeatty
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2008/12/16 12:35:01 (permalink)
    One more question.....Terrestrials....ants, spiders, hoppers......should I be fishing them on the surface just like a dry fly?
    #5
    doubletaper
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2008/12/16 12:45:32 (permalink)
    you can use a floating line for wets and emergers you'll just have to add a little weight to the leader.
    i generally tie my wet flies on heavier hooks where as emergers i tie on dry fly hooks and i use dry line for both.
    if i feel the fish are keying on emergers, this is usually when the trout jump out of the water, a parachute in the faster water works sometimes.
     
    your full sinking lines are better for streamers in my opinion.
    i don't use sink tips. they most likely will be better for nymph fishing or wet fly fishing. most of the streams i fish for trout aren't that deep to begin with so i weight all my nymphs or use shot to get my nymph down or wets deeper in the water coloumn but still use a floating line. the only time i use a sinking line is during fast running, deep water and cloudy water  and i'm sure i won't need dries which is not very often.
     

    http://streamsidetales.bl...015/05/helles-yea.html
    it's not luck
    if success is consistent 





    #6
    strandman220
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2008/12/16 20:36:04 (permalink)
    Ned, a  double taper floating line. That matches your rod is all you need for now.
    #7
    NedBeatty
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2008/12/16 22:32:03 (permalink)
    Anadromous, Where is Curtis Creek?   Is it one of those places where the good ol boys have sex with sheep?
    I'm not knocking the book, I hear it's a good one.
    post edited by NedBeatty - 2008/12/16 22:36:11
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    NedBeatty
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2008/12/16 22:33:21 (permalink)
    Strandman, that's what I have for a dry or floating line.
    #9
    doubletaper
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2008/12/17 10:19:21 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: NedBeatty

    One more question.....Terrestrials....ants, spiders, hoppers......should I be fishing them on the surface just like a dry fly?

     
    yep, they usualy work along the banks of creeks so work those areas. not likely to catch many trout out in the middle of the creek often with terrestrials. i usualy let the hoppers slap the water when they land. spiders and ants not as much. i found when it's windy is the best time to use ants under overgrown bank brush. ants are hard to see so you may have to watch for the swirl, even with some visual aid on top they are still pretty hard to see. ~dt

    http://streamsidetales.bl...015/05/helles-yea.html
    it's not luck
    if success is consistent 





    #10
    strandman220
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2008/12/17 18:01:19 (permalink)
    Ned, a floating line isnt only for dry flys. Its the line I go to 99% of the time. Nymphing. Streamers. Wets. and drys.
    The only times I feel a sinking line is a plus. Are stillwater fishing. And sometimes streamer fishing.
    I feel when streamer fishing a sink tip or a full sinker will keep your fly down when the streamer starts to swing across the current at the end of the drift.
    #11
    fisherofmen376
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2008/12/17 23:25:29 (permalink)
    Curtis Creek, according to the book I think, is wherever u want it to be!
    I also recommend the book. 

    "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
    Matthew 4:19
    #12
    Pgh Kid
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2008/12/19 19:25:48 (permalink)
    There are times when nothing can beat a submerged ant just under the surface.
    #13
    NedBeatty
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/06 11:25:30 (permalink)
    Can anybody else recommend some good terrestrial flies to use on the Yough?    Also what hook size for these terrestrials seem to work best?
    #14
    Cold
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/06 12:09:55 (permalink)
    sz. 8 and 12 hoppers, and ants are pretty ubiquitous.
    #15
    doubletaper
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/07 10:59:24 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Cold

    sz. 8 and 12 hoppers, and ants are pretty ubiquitous.

     
    come on cold, som ub us ar fishermin wittout hyer english skil levels!

    http://streamsidetales.bl...015/05/helles-yea.html
    it's not luck
    if success is consistent 





    #16
    NedBeatty
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/07 21:43:25 (permalink)
    Has anybody had any luck fishing with Muddlers either Muddler Minnows or Muddler Maribous?
    #17
    NedBeatty
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/12 10:53:57 (permalink)
    Question about leaders.   I see many tapered leaders for sale at places like Gander Mountain.   0X to 9X and higher.
    Most are tapered leaders which I assume include the tippet material where one ties on his fly.  
     
    Then I see spools of non tapered leader material and spools of non tapered tippet.
     
    Which is the better way to go? 
    #18
    Cold
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/12 11:07:59 (permalink)
    Non-tapered leader material is for tying your own leaders.  If you dont want to tie your own, get the tapered ones.  To increase the life of your tapered leaders, use spools of tippet, and tie 18-24" of tippet to the end of your leader, replacing when worn, or shorter than 6-12".
    #19
    NedBeatty
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/12 14:34:37 (permalink)
    Thanks Cold, if I tie my own leaders and make the tippets about 18"-24" as you suggest, about how long should the leader portion be?   Also what would be a good knot to use to join the two since the materials are of vastly different diameters?
    #20
    Cold
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/12 17:02:41 (permalink)
    The leader is usually somewhere between 7 and 15 feet, depending on your tactics, presentations, targetted species, and casting ability (both based on your ability to cast as well as anyone's ability to cast in the given conditions, as in: you dont want a 15' leader for a stream that is 10' wide).  As far as knots, the two materials should NOT be of vastly different diameters, thats where the taper comes in.  You start with a heavy butt section, and tie your leader, at your chosen length, by using shorter sections of various materials, until you taper down to a diameter similar to your tippet.  I think most guys use either the blood or uni knot, maybe some use the surgeon knot (the one I use for attaching leader to tippet).  I dont tie my own leaders, however, so dont take my opinions on this as gospel truth by any means.
    #21
    strandman220
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/13 19:54:19 (permalink)
    I think tying your own is the most important thing you can do as a flyfisherman. You are now ready for anything while trying to acheive a good drift. Variation and adjustment are the key. No one leader is the best for every ocassion, but I offer a pretty good allrounder to get started. Joined in all with blood knots.
     
    .017-10" .015-14" .013-14" 0x-10" 2x-10" 3x-12" 4x-20". I know what diameter every section of all my leaders are. So its easy to adjust and tweak them when needed. With a store bought knotless leader who the hell knows?? After a long day of fishing and many fly changes and flys and yes tippets lost on brush. Were do you even start to repair that leader. Without a leader gage you end up connecting 4x to .013 material.
     
    Also hand tied leaders cost pennys. I love a fresh leader. I may be a fanatic but if I fish a leader hard for even one day. I mostly will trow it away. Or at least retie all the tippet sections leaving only the older butt sections.
    Also most of my butt sections from .017 to .011 are tyed with stiff Maxima. I like Orvis or Rio for the softer tippet end.
     
    Be wary of store bought leaders say at 7 ft with a 7x tippet. This makes no sense at all. Neither does say. A 14 ft leader with a 2x tippet.
     
    Ned, to get started. Buy a few spools of the sections needed to tie the leader,,  the above recipe. And go from there. Soon you will be putting out a better leader then anything in a catalog.
    Don///
    #22
    NedBeatty
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/15 10:05:52 (permalink)
    Cold & Strandman thanks for your advice.   I've basically decided on trying a 4-section leader starting with 3 feet of 10 lb-test monofilament, 3 feet of 8 lb test monofilament, 2 feet of 6 lb monofilament, and 2 feet of 4-lb test Cortland fluorocarbon tippet.    The first section is .012 in dia.  The last section is supposed to be .006" in diameter though you can hardly feel it.   I'm using an Albright knot for all 3 joints.  It's a pretty easy knot to tie that I saw somewhere.  It works well for tying slightly dissimilar diameter lines and the knot size is minimal and if trimmed properly should produce a minimum of snags.  I've seen other knots in other publications that looked identical to the Albright but with different names.  I know it's different than a blood knot but some nail knot diagrams I've seen look very similar to the Albright to me.  I looked at the tapered leader that Sheridan Anderson constructs in Curtis Creek Manifesto and decided it was just too many knots to tie.

    I know what you mean about store bought tapered leaders.  I spent $7 on a Cortland tapered fluorocarbon leader that I intend to use on my other reel.  It tapers down to 6lb test.  To it i will attach one of those little N0-KNOT clips so that I can change flies in a hurry without having to restring an entire tapered leader or re-tie a fly.  Trouble is that these little clips work fine on hook sizes 14 and larger because of their larger eyelets but 16 and smaller forget it, the eyelet is just too small.   So basically I'm using a 4 lb tippet to which I am attaching my smaller flies (#16 and smaller) and a no-knot store-bought tapered leader with a 6 lb tippet to which I will attach my larger flies.   Now let's hope the large trout will cooperate and only strike the 6 lb tippet.

    I guess another question I have for you is this......Are fluorocarbon tippets all they are cracked up to be in terms of being invisible on/in the water?      I have some Rio 3.4 lb-test tippet material (not fluorocarbon) that seems even finer than the fluorocarbon material and was wondering what you thought about that?
    post edited by NedBeatty - 2009/01/15 12:32:37
    #23
    Cold
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/15 12:05:18 (permalink)
    I have some Rio 3.4 lb-test tippet material (not fluorocarbon) that seems even finer than the fluorocarbon material and was wondering what you thought about that?


    Its not about diameter, its about refractive index.  Fluoro nearly matches water.
    #24
    NedBeatty
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/15 12:29:38 (permalink)
    Anadromous, read the last sentence in the 1st paragraph of my last message before this one.
    post edited by NedBeatty - 2009/01/15 12:31:06
    #25
    NedBeatty
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/15 13:54:24 (permalink)
    Anadramous,
    What is a "furled" leader?

    Let me expand on my reluctance to have as many segments in my hand-tied leaders as Sheridan Anderson suggests. 

    Some guys use "leader wallets" that they have hanging around their necks.
    I plan to take with me creekside about 15 leaders with various small flies (#16 and smaller) already attached, mostly  the more common flies that are apt to attract the trout's attention for the time of year.....early black stoneflies, midges and some black caddises.  I intend to have them coiled up nice and neat and tied with twisties and placed in labeled zip-lock sandwich bags.

    So if i'm applying 6 or 7 or 8 knots to each hand made leader, multiply that by about 15 to 20 leaders that I plan to have prepared.   That's alot of knot tying.   

    If I want to change from one small fly to another small fly I just remove one leader from the No-Knot loop that is affixed to the end of my fly line, put it in its bag and tie on a new one..  

    If I want to use a larger fly that I can clip on I simply grab the other fly rod that is leaning against a tree that has one of these No-Knot metal clips attached that will accomodate size #14 or larger flies.

    I'm doing all this to avoid having to tie improved cinch knots on flies while standing in water which I know I would be no good at.     Been looking thru bifocals too long.    But if you think it's absolutely positively imperative to have more than 4 segments to my hand-made tapered leaders, maybe I'll reconsider.   But I have to weigh the time spent tying all those knots vs the cost of spending $3-$8 for a store bought tapered leader.    Time is money.
    post edited by NedBeatty - 2009/01/15 13:59:45
    #26
    thedrake
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/15 17:52:09 (permalink)
    I was just wondering the same thing. Why so many leaders?
    #27
    Cold
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/15 18:15:34 (permalink)
    Hey ana, I got one furled leader that I cant wait to try.  I was gonna use it this winter, but I think it'd freeze up.  Any tips on using one?
    #28
    rapala11
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/16 00:55:24 (permalink)
    great thread.  man, cold, you have come a long way.  you were an excellent student and now you are helping others to get addicted.  nice going
     
    btw, i am picking up the c.c. manifesto this weekend.  now i am really interested.  thanks.

    Joined: 10/8/2003


    #29
    NedBeatty
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    RE: Beginners Questions 2009/01/16 04:08:27 (permalink)
    Anadramous and The Drake,
    As I said, I can't imagine myself tying a #20 size fly onto a .006" tippet with a cinch knot while standing in waist deep Youghiogheny water.
     
    I can much more easily imagine myself changing out an entire leader by intersecting 2 perfection loops.
     
    Leaves alot more time for fishing doesn't it?
    post edited by NedBeatty - 2009/01/16 04:12:56
    #30
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