No, your story was to illustrate that a 1.5 yo doe averaged 135.  You said it, not me.  Talk about spewing CRAP.
 
I did look that up.  Actually, there is evidence, a very well fed spike will OUTGROW your 1.5 yo 8 pt. in 5 years.  I'm still waiting on your argument about inferior genes, mixed with doe genes.  I think I'll be waiting for a real long time...  and as for me asking for a better way, you can't come up with that either.  At least realistically.  I'm CERTAINLY not going to feed on your crap because that's exactly what it is.  I feed on the crap I see with my own eyes.
 
You seem to think genetics is the only game in town.  Guess what, it's not, and the genetics here are staying here.  It's something, you, me and every PA hunter have no control over.  However, you DO have control over available feed and age, the two far more important issues in healthy deer.
 
How did PA's deer herd follow scientific principles in decades past??   It didn't at all.  Did you whine then??
 
 
 
 

I can't believe all the free publicity "the general" is getting here ????
 
I do find it interesting much of his "tactics" are present in alot of these posts....
 
~~"the guy from the PGC" .. notice NO NAME....
 
~~ "the AVERAGE weight of a 1.5 year old is 135 pounds" ... then changing it because it is proven to be NOT true..
 
~~ the old idea that "the general" speaks for the majority ,,that is a REAL JOKE.... I have NEVER met one SINGLE person in this area that supports any of his "STUFF"  (met in person and having a discussion)... the only support I see the guy gettings is on message boards in some posts and WHO KNOWS who is really writing those ????
 
One thing -  those posts usally have the same USP Bull in them and are NEVER supported with names or links to the facts they claim just the same old fluff over and over....   

But you just keep feeding on the crap that pcg puts out just like the other sheep.

Baaaaaah! Quote MM
 
LOL..................................... Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

What don't I practice and preach Mickey Mouse?
 
I cannot find the evidence of a spike outgrowing a yearling 8 pt.  It's out there.  I'm not going to spend all day looking for it.  I spent an hour or so.  It's interesting how many studies there are out there on antler development and how many of those studies conflict one another.  That can only mean one thing.
 
All the evidence you need is to look at the pictures of the four and six year old bucks above, spikers as yearlings.  You mean to tell me, a yearling 8 pt. is going to outgrow that?  Maybe, but not necessarily.  Always?  Don't think so.  Never?  Don't think so. 
 
One common conclusion in most studies is nutrition has more to do with antler development than genes.  Inheritability is such a small factor in antler development, is really makes the idea of high grading ridiculous.  Like I said before, you're now seeing way more spikes and I'm now seeing way less.  As a biologist, do you HONESTLY believe antler restrictions can have that quick of an impact on a wild deer herd's antler development??  If you do, you should be ashamed to consider yourself a biologist.  The reason I see WAY less spikes now, is because they are more healthy deer.  I am not going to give antler restrictions props for improving yearling buck antler size, I give it props for protecting half of them.  HR deserves many more stars compared to AR.    Alot of what PA is doing could have been accomplished without AR.  But it wouldn't have been as accelerated.  68% of PA population support AR.  That's risen since the programs birth.
 
I really hate to disappoint you, but Texas is the state that shoots spikes.   Talk with most outfitters from the big 3 -- they let them walk.   They let all young bucks walk.  Guess where the records are coming from??  Not Texas.  It's not fair to judge a deer's antler potential by its first set.  An intense statewide trophy management program implementation would be silly.  Trophy managed areas also cull 3 year old 125" 8 pts. as "management" deer.   Is this what you want?  I don't.
 
I will admit, I get caught up in deer and antler development debates a lot.  Because it's so heated and because there are a ton of misconceptions out there.  It probably gives the impression that I'm a "trophy" hunter.  That's fine, think what you want, but hunting with the only goal of taking the largest rack out of the woods, takes away from hunting.  If you want that, buy a buck, fence him up, feed the **** about of him, then shoot him. Trophy managed areas are for people you want to pay big dollars for them.  I don't consider it hunting.  There's a difference between selective harvest and trophy management.   TM is not even viable, statewide.
 

Was that appropiate???
 
Where did I say genes don't play a role?  I didn't.  I never did.  Are you having a com-pre-hen-sion problem?  Read the sentence you quoted.
 
Thought so..
 
 

quote ---Two years ago the PGC golden boy John Dzymen -- unquote



Interesting.... John is a personal friend and I'm sure will get a laugh out of your GOLDEN BOY comment...

Since he is the district land manager I'm sure he knows what he is talking about as far as thickets go... I'm not sure about the biologist part though :)


QUOTE --  Where did all the thick slashings that they are hiding in come from? --UNQUOTE

Around here in Jefferson County, namely SGL#54, after a cut.. a thicket begins to grow and gets so thick in a year or two you can not even walk in them and carry a gun or bow.... BUT deer poop and buck rubs are EVERYWHERE...
what are theymade up of ... STRIPED MAPLE around here.... not a popular food source for white tail deer....

and in the past I have posted E-mails from Foresters and land personal on my board about striped maple and other "un-desirables" in Jefferson and Elk counties also creating "thickets/slashings."



FINALLY ---Thanks for mentioning the organization you represent as vice-president...and the great info on you being a biologist...

most "professional" people I know can communcate in a way better then...

QUOTE--for your anal rectum from now on. --UNQUOTE

I too am a officer in our local club and their delegate to the PFSC, and I do have outdoor experience... and I am PROUD I have never in 8 years posted anything like that to anyone.. even If we did not agree on a subjest...

thanks too for reminding me why I stopped posting here before.. 

I have no time to trade insults with anyone.......................   

BTW...
John was basing his remarks about the low first day harvest by the deer he saw harvested on the first day compared to the number he saw on opening day in previous years... he does do road checks for harvested deer for the PGC deer team to help with the estimated harvest final figures

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

Was that appropiate???

Where did I say genes don't play a role?  I didn't.  I never did.  Are you having a com-pre-hen-sion problem?  Read the sentence you quoted.

Thought so..

sLIverWipe, wen u gona lern I jUzt buZt uR blz

Doc--If you remember, striped maple is on New Yorks list of perferred winter deer foods so many types are as good or better than anything else available including the oak sprouts the foresters love so much. Deer would (and have) do very well on striped maple as feed or cover but you can't sell it for timber . As for protein, they don't get much of it from any browse. Heck, even acorns suck in that department. It takes the farmers crops or summer fare to supply lots of protein. Grows fast, survives heavy browsing, creates good cover for nesting birds and small animals, sounds like the ideal situation for the bird lovers and hunters. The only drawback is no timber value.

Actually according to John Dzymen of PGC the preferred browse list leaves those with the highest protien content at the top and preference decreases with decreasing protien content.

Parts of the following info is from 2 E-mails about nutrition and a couple studies on deer that were fenced in for study---

Nutrition
Feeding behavior and digestive tract physiology of all deer species are indeed closely related!
The feeds normally consumed by cervids species are also the feeds they are best capable of
digesting!

Whitetails are called Concentrate Selectors because they "select" the more nutritious,
low fiber parts of vegetation, like leaves, fruit, and shoots.
This material is rapidly fermented in the rumen / reticulum; while a large portion of the plant
"Cell Contents" (sugars & soluble starch) is absorbed directly; without any fermentation at all!

Whitetails have stomach antimony adapted to utilize low fiber forage.
Their reticular groove is well developed which allows high quality feed to bypass rumen
fermentation.
All concentrate selectors have a relatively small rumen and omasum; which can get impacted
easily with poor quality, fibrous forage.

Concentrate selectors like whitetails have faster feed "passage rates", relatively larger distal
fermentation chambers (relatively larger hindguts) with greater emphasis on
hind gut fermentation" and less emphasis on "ruminal fermentation".

Whitetails have a relatively large Parotid Gland which secretes compounds that make it
possible for them to eat high levels of some secondary plant compounds like Tannins found in acorns and other browse.

Whitetails posses Proline rich salivary proteins that "bind" these tannins.

Additionally, whitetails and other concentrate selectors have proportionately bigger livers to
deal with the faster fermentation rates of the highly-digestible cell contents of the food they
"select". The large liver also helps to quickly detoxify the chemicals found in some of these
plants.

Voluntary feed intake will decrease as much as 40-60% in periods of severe heat-stress
and winter-cold.

Ingested energy in excess of Net energies of lactation, growth, and maintenance will be stored
as fat.

Here is the basic break down of what deer eat on a yearly basis.... 

Spring
1. Forbs -52 %
2. Browse-34%
3.grasses-14%

Summer
1.Browse-58%
2.Forbs-35%
3.grasses-7%

Fall
1.Browse-56%
2.Forbs-32%
3. Grasses-12%



Winter
1.Browse-63%
2.Forbs-24%
3.Grasses-13%


Notice that the "green-up" time of year supplies alot of "green" stuff for the deer..
all high in protien... but these have little to do with much of the forest re-generation..
that comes later when they eat more browse.. (new growth of trees) during the summer
and fall and winter which just about wipes out the new growth for the forest re-generation.