The deer heard and hunting has changed over the years.Ive hunted the same property since I was kid (20 years),now new owners bought it and they kick everyone out now.I have no place to go to hunt but skirt the edges first day,where its still Huntable.

I have adapted,you wanna know my secret to success????I hunt the same Private Property on the weekdays when the owners are back home thinking how there going to make out the coming weekend.But you know what,when they go back home we drive those deer out of there and put alot of antler and meat on our tables while doing it!!!!

I know there is alot less deer/property to hunt these days,I adapted and want to say thanks to all of you property owners that keep hunters off your property saving the deer for me!!!

ORIGINAL: MuskyMastr

gamelands do affect 100% of the people as the municipalities with them in them do not get the tax revenue that they would if they were not gamelands......so which way do you want it?

And the last time I checked, the reason that we have any deer at all is that our monies pay the salaries of the people (PGC) that saved the deer herd and brought it back from near extinction in the state, so actually we do pay for deer. 

 
 
ahhh... no.  You pay to "hunt" deer.   Hunting is a privledge.  It COULD be taken away from you.

I understand that.  If you think you pay for deer, you should see about getting venison to buy.  Probably going to have a tough time finding that.  Well, you should.

The point was that our licenses pay for the management of wildlife.  SK mentioned about not letting those who do not have a financial stake in the gamelands now, get thier hands on them.
My point was that just as deer affect everyone, so do gamelands.  Many people in counties with large acerages of gamelands are very upset at the small amount of tax revenue that land does or ever will produce and many of those people do not hunt or buy licenses.
 
So he believes that those residents who do not purchase licenses should be included in wildlife management decisions as wildlife affects us all, hunters and non.
But he also believes that anyone who does not buy a license should not have a say in the management of game lands.
 
I was simply trying to point that out.  Which way do you want it?

oh no MM, I didn't say the general public shouldn't have NO say in gamelands, I said they shouldn't pay the PGC with some type of fund.  If the PGC gets funds from the general public, the public will want a piece of the pie.  Do you want the public to control gamelands??

As I stated earlier.  BOTH .. just as it is now.  The general public ARE able to use gamelands.

The deer herd shouldn't be managed on opinion, pleasure, want, or emotion.  It should be managed based on fact. And before you start yappin' and DC starts cryin', managing deer numbers based on embryo counts, IS science, it IS fact.  Putting an antler restriction on bucks and hammerin' the doe creates a better ratio and structure.  FACT.  Managing deer for hunters to make sure they get their buck on an easy hunt, is opinion, pleasure, want, and emotion.  Slice and dice it how you want, those days are gone.  Farewell!!

Please make some suggestions on how the PGC should manage for a healthy herd, not hunter desire. 

ORIGINAL: MuskyMastr


Fact : Rosenberry stated that embryo counts are not what they were expected by the experts to be at this stage of the program.

 
So what does this mean? 
 
 
Bring the herd back to 50 deer per square mile?
 
Do you really have a point?   ..or venting your displeasure and how PA's deer management hasn't met YOUR desires?? 
 
silverkype is still STILL asking...
 
what's the answers ?  How should it be managed?
 
 
 
Don't forget what Jim Slinky said.  "No state, no, no, no, no, no , no state,  manages wildlife by science."  LOL

Didn't the overall numbers of hunters drop last year also? You gotta take that into account also.
 

noplacelikehome is it? i've read very few things ont his topic moslty the first few...didnt feell ike reading it all...so if something go answered just be like we went over that...

Noplacelikehome do you even deer hunt? I don't think you do...So when a someone says "there are no deer" most of the time they mean there is a lot less...
From what i saw your journey. how many of those deer were from the winter? buried in the snow? i've made some short trips on the highways and saw alot of just decayed deer from along awhile ago. and did you really count 50 deer or are you saying "i'd say atleast 50....there was alot"...becuase thats like 1 every 5 miles and im sure that wasnt the case. like someone said you probably hit an area of good posted ground..so forth...

before you can say the quote"there are no deer" please go into the woods try hunting them for a awhile. then you can see what some of mean by that. im not going to asy anymore that there isnt any deer. MOST everyone can agree the herd has changed and the herd has really changed in some certain areas.(where i will still agrue about, that that area needs help)

spiker what the hell are you doing? and you wonder why land gets posted. its from the ****s like you..keep up the good freaking work num nuts

yeah yeah yeah..okay i read it.

when i went to pymy to fish its about 80 miles(im closer to pittsburgh) i only saw about 5 dead deer on that trip and i went up a few times same few deer. Used to see quite a few dead on the journey. Oh i did see a dead turkey too.  on another note, i was going up to pittsburgh today and on 60 i saw i think 2 dead deer both in allegheny, both near the airport..That trip from my house is like 30 miles and i used to see a tonnn of dead ones when i go up there anytime..now i see hardly none.

heres another fact.....PA will all ways be the highest deer death by car...think about it...we have a populated state, lots of cars. lots of woods near the roads.  another fact, deer cross the road. fact our drivers suck****

i've known to many little girls" i was driving down the back road at night not looking and i hit a deer"....me...yeah they cross their all the time....its a trail..slow the  hell down and look the hell up. yet they hit another one...haha anyone really know someone who hits multi deer all the time? i knew this one guy who is like 5 in a couple years. i've never even hit one. wait wait..i did but it seriously was fine its hoove kicked my bumper. i was spotting and they were coming right across the raod to the field i was going slow. now if i wasnt spotting im sure i woulda tanked it going 45 down the road.

No, I am listening.  You continue to avoid the question.  How are we to manage for a healthy herd?  "Healthy herd" I'm not refering to AR or antler size.  What science are we supposed to use to accomplish this?  If you're going to criticize, you should be able to provide the answers.  Your silly antler restriction is not the answer.  We are not trophy managing here.  Because embyro counts aren't changing (according to your typing), what are we supposed to do?   How do we fix that?  More doe should have 2 than 1.  The fact is habitat sucks.   How do you change that as quickly as hunters expect it.  Without funding?   Jim Slinky and the USP have been asked several times, about particicpating in these types of projects.  No avail.  Just whiners.  He and Greg killed bucks the first day and you think the senators are going to listen to them about no deer?
 
Yes, I'm a trout fisherman.  The days I don't catch any fish, I don't blame the fish commission.  If they don't stock the amount of trout I WANT, for a particular section, I don't whine.  If they STOP stocking a section, I don't go there in the same hole, not catch anything and whine.  I move on, in search of.  Do you fish a stream the first day of trout that doesn't get stocked??  Or do you "adapt" and move to where the trout are?  The only stream I really fish in the Little J.  There's too many fish in there anyway.  I'd like to see less, but a few more bigger fish.  If for some reason, a train tipped and polluted the stream, would I go fish there?   Expect the fish commission to make the river recover immediately??   
 
I must be in a dream world down here where I hunt deer.  I see new growth of every type of tree you can name.  Some, browsed to hell.  Most aren't.  It's common sense.  Deer are browsers.  Less deer equals more browse.  It's true!!  I would like to see your source for steming not improving!!  I have a hard time believing it.  While there's more to the story than deer destroying habitat, there's more to the story than hunters having their own personal interests fulfilled.  I saw 7 grouse the other day.  That's good habitat.  If some folks would start looking for good habitiat instead of actual deer numbers, the woods may come alive if you spend time there, correctly.   Do you think the GC can just flip the light switch on for habitat to regenerate?  Is it fair to blame the GC for a mature and aging forest?  Many places in the NC, are a dead zone.  GC's fault?
 
What ARE the answers?
 
 

Well for one we can stick with the reccomendations of the other parties involved.  This report
Impacts of White-Tailed Deer on Forest Regeneration in Northwestern Pennsylvania
Tilghman The Journal of Wildlife Management, Vol. 53, No. 3 (Jul., 1989), pp. 524-532
Suggests that densities should be kept at less than or equal to 18 dpsm in the ANF.  Flir indicates populations far lower than this in many areas.
So how do we manage it?
When you hit your target density or far below, then you give out LESS doe tags not more.  Now they gave the appearance of less tags last year because the number of doe permits was slightly down, but when you figgure in the number of DMAP, the number of tags actually increased.  That isn't managing according to data.
 
I told you before I could care less about antler restrictions, (they were window dressing for the program from the beginning) so stop throwing them in my face.  My point about them is that if you are going to do it do it right.
 
As soon as my library link starts working again I will send you the stem count results.  I also see all kinds of trees growing, and have for the past twenty years.  Our 1.5 yo does weigh an average of 135lbs in mckean county.
 
How do we manage Be responsible, the pgc somehow now states that deer populations are beyond thier control (from the meeting in edinboro) since when did anyone else have a say.  Bottom line is PGC is responsible for providing huntable populations of deer.  They are not doing so in many areas of the state.  Hand out less tags.
 
They are also experiencing areas of the state where there are waaaaayyyyy too many deer.  The answer in these areas is simple hand out more tags, but that is tough to do ,when you have attempted to divide 45,308 square mile into 22 zones.  WMU's are too big to effectively manage.  If you want to see a good wmu system check out colorado.
 
Finally if you have posted signs on your property and do not allow hunting, good for you, you own it and it is your right.  But you get no say in how deer are managed, as you are turning down the number one management tool.  Number two State land is NOT private property, and the DCNR should not be considered a priavate landower when it comes to deer management, neither should the anf.
 
As far as the NC deadzone, no it is not the gc's fault that those forests are so bad, so why should pgc and its license holders take the blame and suffer with unhuntable populations, because of situations that the national forest service and DCNR created in the first place?

MM
 
You should be excited about the deer management audit.  I was just reading an article on it.  Hopefully, whatever is wrong, is fixed. 
 
But I get the sense, not much is going to change.   Unless we decide to manage on hunter emotion.  I don't think that's going to fly.

oh i saw that trout thing too. i didnt fish but went down to the lake they stock around here i was suprised by the decent sized trout, i've seen alot worse.

Oh, so now you're changing your story.  High 1-teens or 135 average, which is it?
 
Show me WHERE I said, adult doe can't or "can never" reach 130??  I do believe I said I've seen it in an older deer.  I'm refering to your "yearling 135 average" you stated. 
 
I just posted the same data you are claiming, kqdc .. yearling doe average less than 100 pounds, closer to 90, it's on page 38 as a graph..    I did provide you the link..  take a look, maybe.
 
sheeesh.

This one is just for MM.  Just some Mickey Mouse science for ya!!
 
http://www.das.psu.edu/das/deer/photos/mature-bucks
http://www.das.psu.edu/das/deer/photos/antler-growth