Well said Jack.

"Wow. And stocking 10s of thousands steelhead in the Erie streams has not destroyed that environment?  Well, if not destroyed, then drastically altered. And slamming 8-12 lb Steelhead is definetly "progress" over a 8 - 12 ince brookie."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the state stocks steelhead where the brookies were.
Please tell me what negative effect the steelhead have had on the enivornment. I know about the crowd of
people. Yes that's a negative effect, and if stocking half as many fish will stop that, then stock half as many.

As I said in the previous post, I have no problem with anybody posting their land, as long as their actions on those
lands aren't having a negative impact on the rest of society. Mr. Beaver is affectively polluting the stream that is
downstream from the property he owns/leases.

Happy Guy,
     Here's an idea that my family tried and it worked (mostly).  We posted signs stating fishing by permission only.  When someone would come up and request to fish we told them straight up what we expected.  To wit:  We were giving them and them only permission to fish.( no getting one permission and then bringing up a crew)  They had to rspect our wishes.  Catch & release only.  Stay away from where my 75 year old grandmother could access (she fished almost every day for 2-4 hours weather permiting)  Yield to landowners. Where to park and if the approved parking area was full please move on.  If we were home please check in with somebody before fishing.  This worked out well.  We made some very good friends and in return got invited to fish other properties.  We went to the trouble to get small business cards printed and we gave them to each permitted person.  That way if my dad or my cousin gave permission I wouldn't chase the trespassers off the creek.  We also put out a trash barrel and once a week I went down and either burned it or emptied it. The only reason we ever posted in the first place was because a troll brought his whole family:  Troll, 2 sons, 1 nephew, 4 grandkids down and hoovered the creek one Saturday.  They each had their limit when they  left (mostly caught by the grandfather and one son) and had the nerve to mouth off to my grandmother.  Also we had a whole crew come up from the philly area once and camp in our open field one night before opening day without asking. 
       What you are facing is not unmanagable.  But if you want good relations with anglers you can have confidence in, then it takes a little work on your part to "make it so #2"   Two days of proactive preparation on your part can add up to years of pleasure for you and the fishermen who "dare to care".  Also, be lenient with parents with kids.  We would always let a kid take a "first fish" home to show mom.  But you HAVE to be open to interruptions of your schedule when people do stop by to ask.  There was many a time when I had to stop the tractor to talk to fishermen.  And you can post a phone # on your sign, telling when YOU will be available.  Hope this helps.

Spoon,
     Excellent reply!  This time we agree.

As proof to his non-existence, he asked how crooked creek was fishing on his last post. Now, if he seriously owned land along it, would he really ask that question. after all, his private section is just sitting there vacant. maybe that was before he came up with the owning land story. lol
he not a very skilled troll

Spoonchucker I failed to thank you enough for your response also.  As far as Northcoast, I don't care if you believe me!  What I asked in my previous post and caught so much grief for, was if the mouth of Crooked was still iced up at the time.  I live several miles upstream and if you are familiar with the mouth of Crooked you know it takes a walk down the beach to get a look.  Why I asked was b/c I couldn't get out with the new baby in the house.  I've wasted enough time with you and will stick with the helpful folk!

Spoon wrote:

"The PF&BC WCOs will not respond to, or enforce property issues, IE: littering, tresspass, etc. on posted property. The WILL respond to them on property open to the public, especially those under the easement program. So you enjoy not only sharing your little piece of heaven, but also the benefit of added protection of your rights."

Spoon,

Last year, a law was past that PAGC and PAFBC officers can in fact enforce trespassing laws (posted or not) which were previously deferred to the local police depts.  I'm not sure about the littering, but just wanted to point out that change.
 
I'm not sure how relevent to the issue you were trying to address it is, but just felt I'd mention it....carry on gentlemen! 

I'm just wondering, but why then was a law passed just last year?  Especially if they did not want that responsibility?  They are law enforcement...and if a law was passed, I would think that it IS their resposibility when called upon by a landowner.  It is their responsibility as law enforcement to take care of it, wether it is contacting the local authoriries or handling it themselves.
 
Not enforcing the laws on ones property hardly seems like incentive for a landowner to keep their property open.  I think this whole issue goes way beyong fishing.  This particular land owner is obviously more concerned about the safety of his family and making sure that the less attention that is around his home, the safer they will be.  I don't blame him.  He seemes to be making every effort to make things work for everyone, even though he doesn't have to.  I commend him for that.  Good Luck. 

"Not enforcing the laws on ones property hardly seems like incentive for a landowner to keep their property open."
 
Perhaps I didn't word my response correctly. They WILL respond, and provide enforcement IF your property is open to public fishing. Thus the incentive.

ORIGINAL: NavyGuy

Tippy-toe
Here is a question to ponder.
Is it access to the waters of the commonwealth that folks want or more specifically access to the fish of the commonwealth? I'm thinking it is the fish that folks want access to.
Somehow I can't picture too many people clammoring for the right to just walk up a streambed through private property because the water belongs to the state. No, more likely, they are after the fish that also belong to the state. What they want is open public access to all state owned fish regardless of where they are.

Now that we have open access to all the fish, ponder this question?
Why not also have open access to the all the state owned deer?  Just ignore those No Hunting signs. Now that would be very popular with a lot of hunters but not so much with all the land owners who have posted their property as No Tresspasing.
As you may have surmised I am in favor of the property owner but  property owners have few protections when it comes to the state owned fish and game. It's up to me to keep the states game off my property and out of my garden. Friday night I had a black bear chow down on my garbage not 10' from my back door. The darn thing did not want to leave. Barking dog and lights didn't move it. When he(?) finished he just moved on to the neighbors. Now if that had been a neighborhood kid in my garbage I could call the local police and they might do something about it.  So how does one keep a black bear off his property?

And the principles apply to all. Me included. and I actually believe the individual should be caring for themselves.
NavyGuy

 

Here are a few for you to ponder. Assuming you own stream side land.

Would you post you stream to the public, but open it to a club for profit ?

Have you called the Game commission about this nuisance bear?

You compare apples and oranges(as stated above) when you compare fish and game. Landowners don't own the water the fish swim in(in the case of a stream), but you may own the land that bear walks on.

That being said I understand why landowners post their land. There are slobs out there. I am always respectful of the areas I fish be it state or private land. There are some that are not. When we talk about access to these fish be it Erie or a stocked trout stream, I'm talking about being able to wade a creek to fish it, not having the landowner build me a path to the creek for access or even allow me to be on his land other than the stream bed.

If you disagree thats fine, but I just wanted to let you know where I was coming from..

Happy and Indsguiz, I would gladly deffer to you Friends and family if you let me fish on your property, and would always respect you and your property.... unfortunately all are not like that, but spoon make a good point above about denying individuals.

Come on Northcoast don't stop now!  You've systematically destroyed me!  Your ability to comb through all my previous posts (maybe 5 at most) and point out my glaring errors and your intimate knowledge of Crooked Creek has exposed me as a Troll!  I like that; it sort of fits since there are bridges at each end of my property.  I now dub myself Happy Troll!  Let's go****Tracy who am I?  If you're local you have to know where I live.  Crooked ain't that long of a stream.  This is sort of fun like a little game.  What's the prize = Nothing!!!!!  Why can't I just be a guy trying to figure out how to share not just my property but my passion for fishing?  I don't want any money!  I loathe the Richie Rich fishing clubs!  I'm trying to look out for the small guy! But I need things to be on my terms!!!  The more all of us communicate and share what we consider an enjoyable fishing trip NOW, the easier it will be for the fishing hole to "police" itself LATER.  Some examples:  Why keep all these fish???? Catch and Release Please!  But how do you deny a 10yr old kid the chance to keep their very first steelhead or even an adult that has no clue how to fish but spent the time and money to drive 5 hours? I will not have people crowding out others!  If my family or friends are there, please be considerate and fish down stream.  The gentleman that owns across the street is very generous and allows public fishing without all the rules LOL.  As more people fish we will all get to know what is a comfortable number.  This isn't Elk or Walnut and it is only one fishing hole on a small creek.  Let it remain small.  Locals - fish again when you have a couple hours to spare but C&R please!  When you run into a father with some kids, send them my way. If you love to fish but can't get around like you use to, then drive right up to the hole and fish.  If you're from out of town and are looking for a new a spot to add to your 20 or 30 fish you caught on Elk, don't come here.  Newbies gladly welcomed.  I don't know much but I'd love to help you get use to things before you attack the big creeks and maybe get a couple fish under your belt at the same time.  It can be a real enjoyable place if utilized properly - thus this spot is known in the Springfield area as HAPPY VALLEY! 

 
 
 
 
Crayton?

Happy Guy,
      If all you really want is to keep people on the far bank... just post signs stating so.  Try:  Fish far bank Only!  If you are caught fishing from the residence side of the creek you will be asked to leave.  Staples can make up a few of these signs in durable plastic that will last for years.  The biggest problem we had, (Outside of the few trolls) were people who couldn't/wouldn't obey a few sinple rules:  Close the gates, don't climb over the fences, go under, and stay the h&!! out of the field with the bulls in it.  If you want to be asked to never come back, just leave a gate open sometime.  e-mail me  at:  hemilovr@hotmail.com I've got a few more ideas.