Hey Kype...

The fact is:  If people are concerned about their well being.
 
 
 
There's one.
 
 
 
 

Griffon: I live in the Adirondack Mts of up state NY. Spent the last 40 years chasing big whitetails and trout fishing in the back country. Often back in over 20 miles from the nearest road. I carry a Kimber 45 with me everywhere. It's big country up here, very unforgiving. Just two years ago we had heavy snow in Oct that took the life of two men who just were not prepared. I've had to use my handgun a few time for sure. Anyone who's ever come face to face with a bear or pack of coyotes in the dark knows what I'm talking about. Be safe, carry.

Because I feel you were missing the point then and perhaps you still are. You had to know that if this happened in PA within a short time of our discussion you would at least be called out a little bit.  If I remember correctly your argument at the time had nothing to do with treestand harnesses, but rather the idea that you felt noone should be allowed to carry hanguns during archery season as there were no dangers to people (particularly bears).  I simply disagreed with you (still do). 

Even after reading griffon's post about the unfortunate woman and her dog, I still wouldn't feel any more safe with a handgun in my hand in the deer woods or on the stream. Its very unfortunate what happened and i'm glad she is OK, but she was just as likely to be struck by lightning as she was to be hurt by a bear.
 
The chance of any situation arising where I would need it is so unlikely it wouldnt be worth me spending the money on a handgun. I talked to a guy fishing the little J about a year or 2 ago, who was carrying a large ruger revolver on his belt. He was in hip waders, because he said he could not carry his handgun on his belt and wear chest waders at the same time. Anyone who fishes the LJ knows you cant get away with wearing only hippers. This guy was severly limiting where he could fish, just because he felt unsafe without his gun. I'm glad I dont live in that kind of fear. He claimed he carried it mainly for rattlesnakes. I've never been in, and couldn't imagine a situation where I couldn't just walk away from a snake. I dont see where a gun could help him if that's his concern.
 
In the case of bears, i've seen a few in the woods while archery hunting. In fact, a couple years ago, I had one hanging out under my treestand on the first day of archery. It seemed very curious after it smelled where I had been standing, but after I made it aware of my presence, it fled the scene. I was nervous, but not afraid for my life. Even after that instance, I dont feel the need to carry a handgun.
 
My future brother-in-law carries a pistol just about everywhere he goes.... "Just incase". Recently, he was not allowed to get into a concert in Philadelphia, because he tried to walk in while packing. After the metal detectors went off, he and his wife went back to their car and drove over 3 hours home without going into the concert, because they felt it was their right to carry a concealed weapon into the concert if they wanted to, and they didn't feel safe without it.
 
I guess my point is: I'm glad I dont live in so much fear that I am afraid of whats behind every tree when i'm hunting, fishing, or out on the town. To me carrying a gun everywhere I go would just be a nuisance and would be restrictive to my lifestyle. I cant stand having a wallet in my pocket, so I know carrying a pistol on my belt or concealed would drive me even more nuts. Perhaps, someday i'll need a handgun but wont have one and will change my mind, but chance are overwhelming that I wont.
 
I do agree with silverkype, even though this is beside the point...There are plenty of guys who will be carrying a handgun while archery hunting "just incase" while they are 20ft up in a tree with no harness on to save their lives with a 33% chance of falling to the ground. It kind of reminds me of a close friend of mine who will not fly because the plane could crash, but doesnt wear a seatbelt while she is driving.
 
One more comment....I would bet a lot more deer will be killed illegally with those handguns carried in archery season, than the numbers of bears or other "threats" to our safety. We all know it's going to happen.
 
I'll end my rant there, its time for my nap

"Those odds are getting a little higher aren't they?"
 
Not really, I'm never around grizzly bears, hobos, illegal immigrants or large packs of coyotes. Perhaps if I was, my thoughts would be different. Where I hunt fish and live I don't feel in danger. I don't necessarilly have an issue with anyone carrying protection, as it is their right, but nobody will convince me that I need it.

I got a question on that issue. If you are carrying your pistol during archery can you pop a coyote with your pistol??

ORIGINAL: griffon

I guess here is my list of reasons  and questions to Drake and Kype.  I can answer YES to each of these.  I have been fortunate to travel across North America (excluding Alaska and BC) by my own ambition and I have experienced some truly amazing memories.  I am sure you have had your own experiences where you would have felt a lot more secure with a handcannon on your side.

Have you ever been to Lake of the Woods in Canada and had a Bruin cut you off at your Cabin then pursue you until you made a hasty retreat to a neighboring camp?

Have you ever had a grizzly take down a cow elk less than 200 yards from you while fishing a small trout stream outside of Yellowstone?  To make matters worse, when the grizzly sees you retreating it makes a false charge to 40 yards before it finally backs off.

Have you ever wrestled a "tame" 950 lb. bear that moved so swift and powerfully that you wondered if you had breathed your last when he hit you so hard that every rib felt as though it would shatter?Gives a whole new perspective on what a wild animal might do.

Have you ever had a bruin invade your spike camp and tear through the tent you were sleeping in?

Have you ever set spike camp in the remotest part of Applalachia where towns consist of 6-10 ramshackled buildings and your only concern was being a scene in Deliverence?

Have you ever been surrounded by an estimated 100 coyotes after dark while you were trying to make your way back to camp as you hiked out from your archery stand?  If not, go hunt South Central Ohio in the Wayne National Forest area sometime...

Have you ever had a poacher shoot a deer less than 50 yards from your stand in the predawn while you were sitting there with a bow in hand? 

Have you ever been within a hundred yards of a PA bruin when it brought down a fawn?  Thus putting you right on top of a kill?  Perhaps you are not in danger, but perhaps you are...

Have you ever had a bruin wade out into the center of a trout stream right next to you before it noticed you?  Then, instead of running it started huffing and popping it's teeth at less than 10 yards while you backed up into the deepest part of the pool hoping it did not charge?

Have you ever had a full grown rottweiller jump off of a house porch and charge you while walking back to your vehicle from trout fishing?  Understanding that the charge did not end until the second shot ended the attack at less than 5 feet.

Has your best friend's sister ever been mauled severly by a dog while waiting at a bus stop in the country?  Two days later, were you attacked by the same Shepard while rabbit hunting and had to kill the animal which turned out to be rabid?

Have you ever fished a waterway near railroad tracks when illegal immigrants (hobos) get off the train close to your proximity and they see you as an easy mark with money?  Try fishing the rural Suesquehanna along the PA and NY border just about grape picking time on the Finger Lakes and you might get the chance.

This is just my stories and I am sure others could share some as well.  Those odds are getting a little higher aren't they?

 
ahh.. exactly. 
 
I've got a question for you.
 
Why are you blowing this out of definition???
 
Back then, we were and now, are talking about PA.
 
But to answer your questions ans answer you answers:
 
Yes, I've been face to face with a grizzly and two cubs.  I got it on video camera.  Closer than 40 yards.
 
I also have been surrounded by coyotes stalking antelope.  I got that on the same camera.  They came up on the porch in Yellowstone to us. 
 
I live and hunt in the mountains.  I've get close to the animals you see as a threat every year, multiple times ... and yes, I've been surrounded by howling coyotes a mile from the truck in the dark.  Scary?  Certainly sends chills down your back.  Deadly??  Hmmm no.  Deadly to a small child?  Maybe. 
 
btw.. 100 coyote estimate??    Based on what?  Howling?  Sounds a little high to me.
 
I also have a black bear within feet coming right at me on camera.  Woulda ran me over if I wouldn't have spoken up.  I've had them within 6 feet from me on the ground.  We bot surprised each other.  I recently jumped a mother and two cubs at 15 yards.   What's the big deal?  Many of the times I see bears, they follow me.   If they really wanted to eat me, they would have done it by now.  I had one come back to me 4 times two years ago in archery.  The last time, I bent down, put my treestand on my back, turned around and there he was at 20 feet.  Followed me the whole way to the truck.   I didn't feel I was in any danger.  I was nervous, but it wasn't a life threatening situation.
 
I've been within 4 feet of two full grown doberman breathing down my neck on Conneaut.  I've been chased by dogs during my entire childhood.  It took a while to understand, that if I stand my ground, they'll bluff.  Certainly a dangerous situation, but I remained unharmed.  I had a dog on upper Walnut come REAL close.  Guess what, the water's edge is their border.   Never seen or heard of a dog jumping in water to attack someone. 
 
I've hunted Wayne National forest in Ohio.
 
So ... you mean to tell me you shot a dog before it even make contact with you??  I'll tell you what, if you're on MY property and MY dog attacks you, you better not be placing a bullet until your LIFE is in danger.  If I was ever to come outside to my dead dog and guy with a gun standing over it, without a scratch, there's going to be problems.  You're going to leave more harmed than what the dog would have done. 
 
Were you "attacked" by the shepard??  Doesn't sound like the rottweiler even got to you.  "second shot ended the attack at less than 5 feet"  -- what attack??  A charge?  Do you consider a charge an attack??   Did the shepard even touch you??  
 
---
 
For the one millionth time, I'm not questioning carrying for protection, I'm questioning if we are TRUELY concerned about safety, there are other instances far more likely to happen, that we should be focused on.  You apparently are still missing the point.  Maybe you should lock your door and stay inside forever.  The odds are safer in the woods of Pennsylvania, than in the public environment.
 
I agree with drake, the odds aren't getting higher.  You are expanding this discussion beyond the scope of the original content.

I do not believe you are questioning the second ammendment.  You are rationalizing why someone should not carry if they choose.
 
The same as those that say there is no need for semi-automatic rifles or pistols, or high capacity magazines, or "assault weapons", or .50 calibers, or concealed carry, or firearm registration etc...
 
You should support, as a sportsman and gun owner, any advancement to our rights period.  Give a little and you play right into "thier" hands.

So ... you mean to tell me you shot a dog before it even make contact with you??  I'll tell you what, if you're on MY property and MY dog attacks you, you better not be placing a bullet until your LIFE is in danger.  If I was ever to come outside to my dead dog and guy with a gun standing over it, without a scratch, there's going to be problems.  You're going to leave more harmed than what the dog would have done. 

Were you "attacked" by the shepard??  Doesn't sound like the rottweiler even got to you.  "second shot ended the attack at less than 5 feet"  -- what attack??  A charge?  Do you consider a charge an attack??   Did the shepard even touch you??  
 
 
You bet,  I saw the Rotty come off the porch from a 100 yards and made sure that I was on the property across the road.  When he hit pavement the first round was fired with an immediate follow up that put him down.  The landowner came out and he was angry.  Too Bad. I told him to feel free to call the police or even better, I would call from my cell phone.  End of story, end of conversation and there is one less rotty along the Allegheny near Coudersport.  If you felt that you wanted to escalate the situation beyond that point then I would be more than willing to oblige you.  Just because you are the aggressor doesn't mean that you might not be stepping right into a good old fashion****whooping.  Also, yes the shepard charged us and yes he was rabid and yes the girl who was bit had to undergo treatment. 
 
My feeling is that you take too many things for granted and are putting your well being in trusting that outside forces will not harm you.  I believe the Grizzly Man thought the same thing as did Steve Irwin as did Sigfried and Roy, not to mention countless others.  I choose to be more cautious and careful.  If I choose to carry a gun that is my right, if you choose not too that is your right. 

I take too many things for granted.  That's funny coming from someone that doesn't know me.  I never said outside forces will not harm me.  I putting my trust in the ability to make rational decisions about where I am and when I feel there is a need to protect myself.  I foresee a greater chance of danger in just about every other situation than the PA woods as danger.  I see a greater chance in an actual misfire while carrying equipment in the woods than a need for a pistol in PA.  If you want to label that as viral d, you go right ahead.  Irvin and Treadwell are HORRID examples of the everyday person not protecting themselves.  They went beyond the scope of common sense doing what they did.  It is your right to carry, and I'm not telling you not to.  But you better watch who's dog you shoot griffon, especially when you have no proof of harm or while on someone's property.  You're worried about some crazy guy, immigrant, bear, coyote, or dog??  Better watch out for a crazy landowner after you shoot his dog.  That's a danger right there.  It may cost you your life someday.
 
 

ORIGINAL: bingsbaits

I got a question on that issue. If you are carrying your pistol during archery can you pop a coyote with your pistol??

 
Pretty sure that's not legal.  Pistol is for protection only.

Here's something that happened last year.
 
A friend and I were out on the St. Joseph river fishing for skamania.  A friend told on about some skams on Range road in Berrien Springs.  The Joe is huge and certain people fish certain places.  You could spend a lifetime fishing it, and never run into another regular.  He warned if you get too close to people fishing in Berrian, they'll show you their pistol.  Just be careful.  The Joe is huge, little chance we'll run into problems, I thought.
 
The "D" was flooded and we were drove 8 hours one way to fish, so we headed to range road.  Upon arriving, we could see some skams chilling out in the river.  At this point, we headed down the cliff, got to the bottom.  There was a drunk guy there with a friend and his son.  The drunk guy wasn't fishing.  This guy was one of those guys you run into about every 10 years.  Spaced out, freakin' nutz in the head, you could just tell.  He proceeds to tell his friend "Hey -- these boys from PA."  He friend comes over and the drunk guy says .. hey, come back to the car, I've got something to show you.
 
Now, my friend and I headed back to the car, knowing that with this guy, there was nothing good for him to show us.  We suspected, he was going to attempt to hold us at gun point and rob us.  We got out of there before the drunk could get up the hill back to the vehicle.
 
Now, let's assume we hung around and went to his vehicle or that we showed up when he was at his vehicle.  Assume I was carrying a pistol.  At what point, do I pull the gun on him??  What if I pull on him then his friend pulls on me.  How do I pull the gun on him if he's already got one pointed in my face??  I can't.  Think about what you would have done and at what point you would have reacted.
 
My point is:  Common sense told me to avoid the situation all together.  Not likely a place I'll ever go back to.  If I couldn't have avoided the situation, how could I have prepared in time to protect myself?  I couldn't have.  If I put myself in that situation where I was at point blank, a pistol in a holster or on my belt would have done nothing.   Same with a bear.  Only time I fear there is a chance of me being attacked by a wild animal, is by completely surprising it and it going into defense mode.  There would be no time to react.  The two bears I've had within feet, I would have have no chance to respond in time.  The mother and cubs I jumped recently, don't think I would have had time to get ready for a shot.  The only thing to do, if this is a concern of mine is to stay out of the woods.  Some of you seem to think carrying makes immortal to disaster.
 
This is not some viral anti hunting supporting story.  It's a matter of an everyday situation, living life, and making the right decision.  It's has to do with its effectiveness.  I could give a rats****if you think I'm supporting anti hunting because I don't think protection would have done anything in this situation.  I've done more to this date in terms of hunter safety classes/bowhunter education, and the future of hunting and putting forth effort to organizations that matter, for hunters, than most hunters in their lifetimes.  Some irresponsible hunter (remember my father was shot, so put yourself in my shoes before you speak) not identifying his target, gives the anti's more juice than my opinions.  Same as shooting an animal that's not on you.  I'm not rationalizing when someone doesn't not have to carry, I'm rationalizing what's best for the situation.  You are so one tract minded, you can't open your eyes to see the entire picture.  If you want to fight gun control, fight the good fight in Harrisburg, not against another hunter.
 
btw.. carrying in Yellowstone is illegal.

DUDE.  WAKE UP.  I do support our right to bear arms.
 
I guess it'd be better for me to promote protection for every step you take, not because it's necessary, but because my rights may be taken away if I don't.  Everyone -- take your guns to church, not because you should but because you can.  GET REAL.

It was a good step.  Every political battle we win for gun control is a good step towards our rights and ensures our future.  But that doesn't mean I'm against something because I see something as not necessary in all situations.  Like I said, you're so one tract minded you can't get out of your political hole.   Do you carry everywhere everyday because you CAN or only necessary?  I think we know the answer to that.  What a contradiction on your part if you don't carry everywhere. 
 
Have you ever met Ted Nugent?   Tell me about him and how anti-gun he is.
 
 

ORIGINAL: SilverKype

It was a good step.  Every political battle we win for gun control is a good step towards our rights and ensures our future.  Do you carry everywhere everyday because you CAN or only necessary?  I think we know the answer to that.  What a contradiction on your part if you don't carry everywhere. 

Have you ever met Ted Nugent?   Tell me about him and how anti-gun he is.

 
Thank you for your admission.  After all of these discussion on this thread and others, that is the first recognition on your part that the change was good for gun owners.
 
When do I carry? When the urge strikes me.  I have carried at my nephews birthday party and I have not carried while trout fishing a city stream in Pittsburgh.  When I do carry, I value my rights even more. Why do I contradict myself if I do not carry all of the time? 
 
I have met Ted Nugent.  He is a riot and speaks with more "common sense" than most realize.  He can be polarizing and I realize that.  All sportsman and gun owners should hear him speak at some point.  Not sure where you were going with him being anti-gun?  Far from it.