Helpful ReplyArchery season 2019 
DarDys
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/02 13:21:03
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anzomcik
DarDys
Bingo — we have a winner!
If genetics determine an eye color or stature, it doesn’t matter how old that specimen becomes. Same with the recessives for no brow tines.
I’ve had some of these four on camera and in person for five years. All they are is taller, wider, and heavier — but still not legal — never were, never will be. And each time they produce an offspring, the more likely that gene carries forward. And the more of those cohorts in the population, the more likely they are to produce offspring.
Ok i want to get this strait. Are you saying you have 6.5 YO 4 point bucks? (5 year experience, doesn't grow its first rack until age 1)
Do you believe this is only a trait unique to your area?
If you could post these photos I would love to see them
Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. I can probably point to the doe that is responsible as well. We observed her three years in a row with triplet bucks. Didn’t see her last year or this year.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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anzomcik
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/02 13:38:14
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it sounds like this is unique to your localized area? Studies have show it is impossible to remove genes from the pool by hunting, because the dispersal rate of BB is 1-10 miles (carrying there genes with them), to reduce the chance of inbreeding. Are you confident that buck hung around its mother, aunt, sister that much? One also would think that over time some of the traits you observe would be in a state of slow change because new blood enters and exits every year slowly mixing the pool. You feel thats is happening?
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/02 13:38:27
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anzomcik
BeenThereDoneThat.
However, let me explain. The PGC does not take into consideration the population and age of the hunter. Therefore the AR's do not benefit or work as was blown.
AR's are not working as we were told they would, except in limited specific areas.
Post up a link or study showing what your trying to say, I do not understand what your getting it. I am not saying you do not have a valid point, I am honestly lost at what your referring to.
BTW it cant be published from the PGC or Penn State. Years prior you discredited anything published from those two sources.
Dam straight it can't be from the PGC or PENN STATE. You think they would publish data proving ARs are nothing more than smoke and mirrors. As for the gene pool thingy, I'm sure you'll find info regarding that being part of the smoke blowing. Had something to do with ridding the herd of bad gene's that create those awful scrub bucks. As for me providing data, typical copout by those who can not accept truth over fiction. You continue believing what you're told. I'll continue knowing with what I've lived. The only reason for AR's is to cull bucks from the hunters wallet.👍👍👍
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2019/10/02 13:40:58
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
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anzomcik
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/02 13:39:54
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BeenThereDoneThat.
anzomcik
BeenThereDoneThat.
However, let me explain. The PGC does not take into consideration the population and age of the hunter. Therefore the AR's do not benefit or work as was blown.
AR's are not working as we were told they would, except in limited specific areas.
Post up a link or study showing what your trying to say, I do not understand what your getting it. I am not saying you do not have a valid point, I am honestly lost at what your referring to.
BTW it cant be published from the PGC or Penn State. Years prior you discredited anything published from those two sources.
Dam straight it can't be from the PGC or PENN STATE. You think they would publish data proving ARs are nothing more than smoke and mirrors.
As for the gene pool thingy, I'm sure you'll find info regarding that being part of the smoke blowing. Had something to do with ridding the herd of bad gene's that create those awful scrub bucks.
As for me providing data, typical copout by those who can not accept truth over fiction.
You continue believing what you're told. I'll continue knowing with what I've lived.
What are you talking about? Cant you provide anything that is even in the ball park of what your trying to say?
post edited by anzomcik - 2019/10/02 13:48:13
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/02 13:44:30
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Dardys sorry to crash your thread. But thanks for the chance to air my grievance. Now, if you will excuse me, I must go punch myself in the ear.🙄
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2019/10/02 13:46:46
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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r3g3
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/02 13:45:01
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Shot a spike Looongggg ago in the Cats of Ny. Seemed big for a spike being just under 140. State guy said it was 3.5 years old. Small short spikes too. They shot a lot of mature small horned bucks on that property over the years and then after more than a decade somebody got a decent 8. Genetics IMHO.
post edited by r3g3 - 2019/10/02 13:46:08
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mr.crappie
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/02 13:58:04
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☄ Helpfulby CAPTAIN HOOK 2019/10/09 12:39:44
DarDys, We had the same thing with 6pts with no brow tines in the area that I hunted. The first year of a.r. we found 3 of these that were shot & left to rot. Seems like the dominate buck was the same . That is why those deer farms shoot cull bucks ,if a breeder has those tendicies so will most of its male offspring. That was my biggest complaint about A.R. the fact that we were putting more pressure on the biggest bucks instead of improving the herd by removing the scrubs,which is exactly opposite of what all animal breeders do.Also a fact that I seldom see mentioned is that the Does contribute as much to the genetics as the bucks do. So if you are hunting meat & want to improve the herd IMO you should let the big Mammas go.In the area that I used to hunt in Wash. cnty. we saw the average size of most deer decline after they started to issue such insane amount of doe tags.Also the smaller younger deer seemed to suffer from not having the older more experienced mothers to teach them. sam
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DarDys
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/02 14:29:45
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anzomcik
it sounds like this is unique to your localized area? Studies have show it is impossible to remove genes from the pool by hunting, because the dispersal rate of BB is 1-10 miles (carrying there genes with them), to reduce the chance of inbreeding. Are you confident that buck hung around its mother, aunt, sister that much? One also would think that over time some of the traits you observe would be in a state of slow change because new blood enters and exits every year slowly mixing the pool. You feel thats is happening?
The problem is that over time the recessive gene bucks, if unharvested, become the bulk of the population. In concert, their genes then become the bulk of genetic material passed on. The dispersion distance of BB is determined by a lot of factors, not the least of which is do they have anywhere to disperse to or do they have any reason to disperse at all. Keep in mind that does carry genes too. If they are the offspring of a recessive, their offspring may get that passed along. Look at the classic fruit fly studies on genetics to be able to construct a probability matrix. The same with any critters. The more recessive genes, especially from both sexes, the higher the probability it gets passed along. And the more often the “normal” gene isn’t dominate, the less likely it will be. As for the 4-point thing being localized, probably. But in another area it may be the spike forever gene. Or the broken antler gene. The problem becomes that these recessives are, for the most part, protected, thereby increasing their population and the likelihood they will pass it along. This is the very reason breeders if anything remove, as quickly as possible, any specimens that exhibit an undesirable trait. But the PGC knows better than those breeders.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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r3g3
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/02 20:07:44
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A friend hunts a nearby place here in Ct where he saw a 6 pt last year pre season with one side having up antlers and the other straight down. Base tines unknown but not huge antlers.
Never saw the deer during the season.
This Summer its back with the very same antler configuration and size.
Sounds exactly like the genetic situation that Dar describes- certainly a cull deer.
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/03 01:20:04
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Anzo I would like to express my regret in that I misread your question in regard to DarDys thread.
I thought you supported the idea of gene control and antler growth, by hunting and hunting alone.
My rant was triggered when I read DarDy's comment saying he would wait for bucks from other areas and the mention of "no youth hunters" hunt those area's.
I understand DarDys would rather have, and enjoy as much, a young hunter take a buck and so would I. But I would enjoy seeing an older hunter take that same buck just as much.
You see, many hunters on this forum have sentimental feelings when a young hunter shoots their first deer and that is just fine in my book.
But those same hunters seem to lose that sentimental feeling if an older hunter would shoot that same deer..... maybe his/her "last" deer.
That same hunter who over the years has, paid for the hunting the youths can enjoy today.
That same hunter whose stories might entice a young person to hunt.
So while we find enjoyment with young hunters being succesful, I also find sadness in seeing more & more older hunters giving up the hunt, not because of age but, because of the BS AR's.
Now, there's a "gene pool" the PGC should be concerned with.
The 'hunting gene' gets passed on less & less everytime an old hunter hangs up his guns.
With that, thanks for trying to understand and sorry I don't have written data reports, as I only have 57 years experience, hunting Penn Wood's.
Special youth regulations do not and are not fair. Hunter populations by age vary greatly across WMU's like 1A.
No way, unless on posted property, does any buck have chance of getting by 2.5 years of age, in areas of Mercer County, PA.
I don't give a chyt what any PennState data study says. In my years of hunting, I've seen far too many bogus data studies.
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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dpms
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/03 08:29:46
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BeenThereDoneThat.
No way, unless on posted property, does any buck have chance of getting by 2.5 years of age, in areas of Mercer County, PA. A good friend of mine takes 3.5 and older bucks quite regularly on unposted properties in Mercer County. He has a stud he plans to chase this year on unposted property. You did say "areas" of Mercer County so you were not making a blanket statement. Mercer County has some great deer hunting. Hunted there a few times recently and the buck sign has been great.
post edited by dpms - 2019/10/03 08:37:48
My rifle is a black rifle
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/03 09:22:04
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Kinda of a shame, at first I thought you a "hunter" interested in sharing a good hunting story dpms Welp only goes to show, I can be wrong.... once in a while. But after your comment, I'm not so sure I'm wrong, you post "only" to create argument. Yes.... "Areas" of Mercer county. PS. I too know people who get older deer in Mercer County. They set their stands & cameras just feet from posted land they can easily access by ATV. Enjoy your style of "hunting", good luck, be safe and thanks for reading my 'rants'. Don't forget to hit the like 👍 button 😊
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2019/10/03 09:30:40
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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thunderpole
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/03 11:03:52
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Ok ok I hunt mercer county my entire like umm 17 years now since I was 12 is say the past 5-6 years iv really been concentrating on big deer I'll say this , I believe 90% of the bucks are 3.5 or younger you can really tell quite easy if it's a "mature " deer by body size alone but there's not many , sure most probably don't be seen or known about but there rare yes there here but there smart, alot of "typical 8s" I'd say 80-100" deer and lotta does I never hunted back in the day because I wasn't born yet but my opinion is this..... everyone seen 50 60 100 deer but maby 1 buck probably a spike or basket rack they shot it and where happy , now there is far less deer but the buck doe ratio is far better "still far from perfect " I get and kill 3 does every year and pretty much have my entire life so really there's not a shortage of deer just better quality deer I see 140-160in deer locally every year spotting driving whatever and a few years ago there was a 190+ killed about 4 miles from my house so they are here just smart , now the Amish they kill everything and anything big small shoot em all but if there killing some "culls" is it really a bad thing? Legal no probably not but if your eating it and jebadi has a tag???? I think ar is working and I'm happy to shoot as many doe tags as pgc will gimme ....end rant
I'd rather be lucky then good,but im to good to be lucky
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thunderpole
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/03 11:09:53
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I believe if people really worked hard got into some wet stuff marshes swamps they would be amazed at what they might see , or even in anf the big timber find the saddles on beds near food there's big bucks but once again there smart and wary, I believe your best chance is your first chance stay mobile don't over hunt a spot and watch the wind , not only yours but the deers
I'd rather be lucky then good,but im to good to be lucky
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dpms
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/03 12:16:27
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BeenThereDoneThat.
But after your comment, I'm not so sure I'm wrong, you post "only" to create argument. Nope. Nothing in my post was argumentative. Only another opinion on deer hunting in Mercer County. Maybe you have a chip on your shoulder and are looking for stuff that isn't there. The great majority of my thousands of posts are congratulatory, informative, discussive, and positive. Heck, if it weren't for me, and just a few others posting about hunting experiences, there would be hardly any good discussion on the hunting boards. With that said, debate often happens on message boards. One can choose to partake or not. If one chooses to partake, it should be expected that positions will be challenged. That is what debate is.
post edited by dpms - 2019/10/03 12:55:01
My rifle is a black rifle
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dpms
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/03 12:21:32
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thunderpole
I believe if people really worked hard got into some wet stuff marshes swamps they would be amazed at what they might see , or even in anf the big timber find the saddles on beds near food there's big bucks but once again there smart and wary, I believe your best chance is your first chance stay mobile don't over hunt a spot and watch the wind , not only yours but the deers
Yep. My buddy uses this tactic often. I would add that some people also need to continually adjust from what they have always done if they expect reasonable success. What worked 80 years ago didn't necessarily work 50 years ago. 30 years ago like 10 years ago. Etc........... I hunt much different now and in different areas than I did in the 80s and 90s. I see as good success or better now as I did back then. Success rates here in Pa prove that deer hunters are doing very well, despite the gloom and doom that is often presented.
My rifle is a black rifle
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thunderpole
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/03 14:34:21
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I have to say the internet has so much useful information it's crazy, people are willing to share information
I'd rather be lucky then good,but im to good to be lucky
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/04 01:26:03
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dpms
BeenThereDoneThat.
But after your comment, I'm not so sure I'm wrong, you post "only" to create argument.
Nope. Nothing in my post was argumentative. Only another opinion on deer hunting in Mercer County. Maybe you have a chip on your shoulder and are looking for stuff that isn't there.
The great majority of my thousands of posts are congratulatory, informative, discussive, and positive. Heck, if it weren't for me, and just a few others posting about hunting experiences, there would be hardly any good discussion on the hunting boards.
With that said, debate often happens on message boards. One can choose to partake or not. If one chooses to partake, it should be expected that positions will be challenged. That is what debate is.
I believe that's my point. debate[dəˈbāt] NOUN - a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.
"last night's debate on the Education Bill"
synonyms:
discussion · exchange of views · discourse · parley · argument · dispute ·[more]
VERB
- argue about (a subject), especially in a formal manner.
"the board debated his proposal" ·[more]
synonyms:
discuss · confer about · talk over · talk through · talk about ·[more]
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2019/10/04 01:28:27
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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dpms
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/04 07:43:50
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Perfect morning shaping up tomorrow for the general opener. I plan to be out there in the morning. Can't hunt the evening tomorrow, unfortunately.
My rifle is a black rifle
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DarDys
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/04 07:48:57
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Unfortunately it is shaping up to be a great dog training day too. And that is where I’ll put my time.
Shot the first bird off Dextros point yesterday and he also retrieved it to hand.
Wintres had solid points, but he is not to the stage of being able to shoot a bird over him yet.
Good luck to all that venture out for deer.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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eyesandgillz
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/04 09:11:53
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Dardys, can you please post up some of your trailcam pics of the 18" wide 4 points? I would be very interested in seeing them.
Thanks.
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/04 09:32:27
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Eyes I'll stand corrected but didn't DarDys say the batteries failed in his field cam so he didn't get any recent pictures or was that another thread? I have seen some of his pics in the past thou and they're quite nice..🤗
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2019/10/04 09:38:59
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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DarDys
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/04 10:00:25
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eyesandgillz
Dardys, can you please post up some of your trailcam pics of the 18" wide 4 points? I would be very interested in seeing them.
Thanks.
Eyes, With all the posts on this subject, there may have been some confusion. I have (or should I write “had” because I don’t bother keeping photos of deer I’m not interested in shooting) trail cam photos of recent 4-points that have been around for 3 years (that’s as long as I have had cameras up). None of them are the 18” wide one. Sorry. The biggest one is probably 12-14 wide and doesn’t start curving until well above the ears. As for the 18” wide one, I physically saw it 20 years or so ago (this property belonged to my wife’s grandfather then) at a distance of about 10 yards while training dogs. I could not believe it was only a 4-point, but we had a stare down at that distance for more than a minute. He had been bedded in some waist high warm season grasses and only stood up when I got that close. I’m sure he would have remained there if he didn’t get pinned between the dogs and myself. One would be amazed at how often deer do this — bed and stay in what we think are open fields. I’ve bounced numerous bucks, some real monsters, while hunting or guiding for pheasants. Deer hunting a pheasant preserve I guided on from a ground blind, I watched, all day long (dawn to dark), a group of 15-20 deer doing just this in the pheasant hunting cover. They were bedded on a hillside about 400 yards away. I knew there was more than one deer there because about every half hour or so, the deer bedded just below the apex of the hill where it had the best view would get up and move down into a dip in the terrain and another deer would replace it on sentry duty. This continued until there was a shot on the neighboring property and 10 minutes later, a buck on the run from that direction crashed through the area where the deer were bedded. It kept going in the direction it was headed, but then, and only then, did the whole herd show itself by scattering in all directions like pool balls on a break.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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mopars0
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/04 14:41:38
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This has been an interesting thread ... I have hunted the same area now for 30 years , it was my aunt and uncles property now my Cuz . It’s about 60 acres With adjoining about 100 acre farm . I started hunting this land when my son started hunting at 13 he will be 43 in Dec. I have used the same 2 tree stands and 2 ground shanty’s . I have one stand covering crabapple trees in corner of one field and one shanty covering other end of the field. The other shanty and stand are deeper into a thicket just off another field.. I guess what I’m saying is we have taken very nice bucks over the years a few which are on my walls and other years nothing but as us old timers call scrubs ... yes at 68 I’m an old timer .... and slowing down some but still love be out in the woods. This year nothing to brag about on my camera so far ., last year there was a awesome 8 point out there but only saw him on camera at night never while I was hunting passed a few smaller bucks up because I wanted one more nice wall hanger but didn’t happen settled for a doe ... didn’t hear of anybody getting him but he seems to be gone So good luck out there I’ll probably wait another week or so to hit it ... love the bow season anymore ..got a nice 8pt couple years ago with Xbow and a few doe with compound ... I had good years and bad years but have always enjoyed being out there.
post edited by mopars0 - 2019/10/04 14:46:16
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/04 21:20:05
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pssstt Mopars..... can I have your groundblind when you're done with it. Now that's the kinda huntin I'm talkin' bout.
Sweet. 🤗
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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mopars0
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/04 22:50:31
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lol BTDT ... well the one shanty or groundblind as you call it it made out of railroad ties and has a wood stove in it ... but sure it’s yours when I’m done .... the other one down in thicket is 15 ft in the air and also has a little propane Heater in it also... if I get lucky not much dragging anymore I can drive right down to them ...
post edited by mopars0 - 2019/10/04 22:53:27
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/04 23:44:19
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I want the one made of railroad ties.... that thing is super cool and I bet if those walls could talk, we'd hear some dam good "hunting" stories. Good luck this season Steve and successful or not, I'm all ears when it comes to real "hunting" stories. BTW I'm sitting in Sioux Falls SD, at this writing, and it's piszing like a cow raining on a flat rock. What..... wait, stupid white line fever.😩
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2019/10/04 23:50:03
Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~ Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way.
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treesparrow
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/05 11:58:46
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☄ Helpfulby CAPTAIN HOOK 2019/10/09 12:47:36
I am amazed at the size of Bucks being shot in recent years in the areas of Venango and Clarion Counties that I hunt. the group of about 10 guys I hunt with shot 6 bucks last season 8 pts and better none of which were less than 15" spread. Only one going into the 20" width but most 17-18" spreads. Some real nice bucks shot by others. Trail cam photos are coming in with some monsters for this year.
I am not advocating that AR is the only factor leading to this as posted ground, less hunters, permanent stands, warmer boots, and lazy hunters are all factors. I am 68 years old and in Buck rifle season my wife hardly sees me. I hunt some posted ground that is hunted by quite a few others and public land. One property I own surrounded by public land gave up three good bucks all 17" and better. One stand on that property a friend hunted every day of rifle season and shot the 23 buck he saw on last day. It was a dandy buck. He was perched within 20 feet of Game lands. Another hunter stopped after hours and said he saw that buck earlier in the day but didn't get a shot.
I hunt hard and so do most of my group although some are first day and weekend hunters. This year in rifle season I only saw 5 bucks and shot the 5th a 17 inch 10 pt on first Saturday. Having the whole season to hunt I have no problem shooting a buck every year. I almost always pass on a legal buck first day and another first Saturday. One first day I watched 4 bucks feed for 30 minutes first morning with three legal.
Most guys hunt the same stands and have 2 hr lunch ( great time of day to kill buck). I have killed lots of good bucks at lunch time. All dem hunters heading back for lunch then heading back to their stands. All the permanent stands around with heaters the deer are not getting pushed around like years ago. And as all us older nimrods will remember boots have come a long way. On a 20deg day you couldn't sit for longer than a couple of hrs. That kept those deer on their feet.
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Moses Guthrie
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/05 15:36:29
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Sat with my son(14yr old) this am, had a great start to the season. Saw 8 does, about a 16 inch 8 pt that stayed out about 50 yds, and then at 8:15 a 3 pt that made the mistake of coming to within 12 yds of our stand. He connected with a quartering away heart shot, 60 yd recovery. While waiting in the stand a 5 pt came down the same trail as the 3 pt.
Buddy set up about 800 yds away saw 7 doe. Was at the processor at about one. He said it was none stop all morning. There were 6 bucks hung or waiting to be that we could see, all were nice bucks in the 17-20 inch spread range. One was a bruiser 10 pt.
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mopars0
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Re: Archery season 2019
2019/10/05 16:23:59
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Congrats to your Son , Moses love seeing the Kids filling tags and you getting to share the special moment with him. My grandson was out this a.m. but I haven’t heard anything from him yet and of course he’s 23 . I need to put a little bit more fish in my freezer so it’ll probably be another week or so before I start hitting it, congrats again to your son and good luck to you.
post edited by mopars0 - 2019/10/05 16:25:33
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