Helpful ReplyHot!Archery season 2019

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dpms
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2019/09/16 07:49:33 (permalink)

Archery season 2019

Not much activity on the boards over the past few years but thought I would start a new thread for the upcoming archery seasons to hopefully generate some discussion. Here in the SRA's, the season opens up this Saturday.
 
I did a camera check over the weekend at some of my early season spots. One stand under a couple of oak trees has a pretty decent buck coming in during daylight pretty consistently. He is an 8 point, about 15 inches wide, but thin horned. Probably a 2.5 y/o. Part of me hopes he doesn't show up. He is one of the those bucks that is tough to pass up. I will only be able to hunt in the morning on the opener but plan to be in the stand well before daylight. 
 
Anyone else headed out in the SRA's or have some deer lined up for the general opener on the 5th? 

My rifle is a black rifle
#1
DarDys
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/09/16 08:05:49 (permalink)
Typically, no bucks show up on my property until +/-5 days of Halloween. They wonder in for the rut and leave.

This year, for the last month or more, I’ve had 4 different spikes, 2 different 4-points, a 6-point, and a 7-point like the one described above, except he is high too, on camera and some in person.

Physically, I saw a real good 8-point 60 days ago and my wife saw what she described as a monster 45 days ago, but I have no photos of either.

Not sure if I’m going out early in the season or wait for the rut. I have two puppies to polish up for the state pheasant championship and I’m really after the size of buck that wonders in at Halloween.

However, I might venture out early and put a doe in the freezer so that I can pass on a buck like the 7-point and not regret it later when I don’t have any deer bologna, like last season.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#2
fishin coyote
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/09/16 08:12:05 (permalink)
No SRA's for me, I'll have to wait for October. Local deer here are starting to move out of the beans and into the oaks. Acorns are everywhere.
Good luck everyone with your season

Nothing is Free!!
Reward equals Effort


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CRAPPIE_SLAYER
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/09/19 18:20:47 (permalink)
I'm out until the 5th, but can't wait. Been working on the new (to me) house most of the year and missed most of the fishing season. Just about done and once hunting season gets here I hope to be doing not much else in my spare time. Got a decent 8 with about a 6" brow on one side I'd like to have a run in with, but I'm not real picky when it comes to horns. Honestly, I just want to get some meat in the freezer. Good luck out there everyone and hopefully its not 80+ degrees this year for the early part of the season
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mopars0
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/09/19 19:22:58 (permalink)
I hear ya crappie slayer on the 80+ weather . Was out checking my stands and camera yesterday have to say not seeing much on my camera . Hopefully still early but last year had several nice bucks on camera by now all at night. Seeing my Cuz and her 2 dogs and few Doe ... lol oh well we will see ... good luck everyone !

STEVE.
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Dirty McCurdy
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/09/20 10:24:15 (permalink)
Gonna miss the WV opener, I will be out of town chasing redfish.  We were hoping to put some doe meat in the freezer early this fall, but unfortunately EHD is triangulating itself around me, and seems to be closing in.  I might wait and see what it ends up doing, I would hate to put three doe in the freezer if it hits us hard locally.  WV trail camera has proven promising, I have 2 decent 2.5 year olds out at my inlaws farm, along with one very nice heavier/wider/taller 8 that I saw in person thrice now(thinking he is probably a 3.5), but can not seem to get him on camera.  I have a feeling that his bedding/food corridor is all in about a 300 yard area right now, and I don't want to push in on him just to get a few trail cam pics.  If I catch the wind right, and he screws up just right, I think I have a chance.  Tons of doe behind the house, but no bucks to speak of other than the worlds smallest spike. If the disease slows down, and the doe stick around and survive the EHD, it might be a good place to be for a morning in early November.
 
Pa trail camera work has produced a few little bucks, but nothing to get shaken up over.  I will probably hold off and hit a couple of my old stand-by Halloween - Nov 14th GreeneCo stands and do some run and gun when the time comes, instead of tromping around the jungle up there spreading my scent around sweating it up in October.
 
Side note, anyone ever hunt any of these tree saddles that are all the scuttlebutt nowadays?  I have always been a climber guy when it comes to run and gun, but I have also had about a 1000 trees I thought would be awesome to get in over the years that weren't suitable for the climber.  I would be interested in hearing what peoples thoughts are on them.  
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dpms
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/09/21 20:29:56 (permalink)
First hunt of the year this morning. All I managed to see was a young red fox. Haven't seen a fox in a few years so that was cool. Acorns were dropping pretty consistently. Could hunt this evening. That particular stand is better in the evenings. 

My rifle is a black rifle
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CRAPPIE_SLAYER
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/09/22 11:30:23 (permalink)
Took a walk on one of the properties I hunt today. What a difference a few weeks makes. Was up there a few weeks ago and didn't see many tracks. Come back today and the oaks are raining acorns. Deer sign everywhere! Spotted 3 does and a flock of 13 turkeys
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mopars0
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/09/25 23:54:19 (permalink)
Checked my camera today and my 2 stands ... only 2 small bucks and a few doe in a week., sure a lot different then last year at this time. Neither bucks were shooters either , oh well guess we will have to wait and see ! Good luck out there this year ...

STEVE.
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dpms
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/09/26 08:18:00 (permalink)
Did my first afternoon sit yesterday. One lonely spike. It was pretty warm out there. 

My rifle is a black rifle
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/09/28 20:14:53 (permalink)
Accuweather says temps dropping toward midweek and a high of 61 on Saturday for the statewide opener. Hope they're right. Can't wait to get out there. Good luck!
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eyesandgillz
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/09/30 08:34:48 (permalink)
Went out Thursday evening to scout/set a cam and sit in a tree.  Pretty darn hot out.  Only kicked out a few doe on the way in.  Not much sign.  Oak flat I was in didn't have many/any acorns this year.  
Slept in on Friday morning.
Hoping to get out later this week in the afternoons after the cool down.
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thunderpole
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/09/30 09:03:07 (permalink)
Had cameras out all summer only check 2 once had 3 shooters on that property, didn't spot or even enter the woods this year we had alot of success glassin bean fields in September seen many of quality bucks this year looks promising hopefully I can seal the deal before I ship out to Montana second week of November

I'd rather be lucky then good,but im to good to be lucky
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/09/30 10:42:42 (permalink)
Thunderpole were ya heading to in Montana?

We kicked around the idea of seeing the sights in "Big Sky Country" but that darn blizzard chased us to South Dakota instead.

Sure glad we didn't go this trip, I forgot the snow blower.😒 Mercy some places got hammered with 3 foot of snow.😳


Good luck 🤞 to everyone, swinging their feet while sitting in a tree, hunting the elusive PA. White-tailed Deer this year. "They're so darned cute".😝

Hunt Safely... Shoot to kill.

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
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thunderpole
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/09/30 13:45:15 (permalink)
We are going to eastern Montana for muledeer me and a buddy drew tags, we have a friend that lives out there he filled all his tags this year bear,turkey, elk,deer,and pronghorn so he's going to Idaho for elk really excited for this hunt we got good chances of killing some hammers should be a great time freezing lol

I'd rather be lucky then good,but im to good to be lucky
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BIGHEAD_1
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/09/30 18:04:07 (permalink)
Be going out this Saturday only shooting horns with the bow / crossbow  Going to use blackpowder in the early muzzleloader season then one in gun season   Good Luck All BE SAFE AND CAREFULL Eh !!!!!!!!!
 
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/10/01 00:20:48 (permalink)
thunderpole
We are going to eastern Montana for muledeer me and a buddy drew tags, we have a friend that lives out there he filled all his tags this year bear,turkey, elk,deer,and pronghorn so he's going to Idaho for elk really excited for this hunt we got good chances of killing some hammers should be a great time freezing lol


Good for you and good hunting.

Speaking of muledeer I took a ride through Spearfish Canyon in South Dakota just before dark hoping to get some pics.

Rounded a curve going up the canyon and there in the middle of the road was a buck and three doe. The doe tried climbing the steep cliffs to our right and the buck went over the hillside across Spearfish Creek stopping too far into the dark woods to get a pic.

The doe were frantic trying to climb the cliff and I didn't want them getting hurt so I traveled over onto the opposite berm and went by as quickly as possible with no chance for a pic.

As for freezing, tonight we're in the low 30's and highs of low 40's with rain and snow forecast the next few days but Thurs and on, Sunny and mid 60s.

Don't forget your camera, there's awsome sights.

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
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thunderpole
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/10/01 16:27:59 (permalink)
I'll be taking plenty of pics , it's pretty crazy how technology has evolved since my last western hunt (2013) scouting from a cell phone from 1400 miles away lol gotta love onx maps

I'd rather be lucky then good,but im to good to be lucky
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DarDys
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/10/02 09:12:57 (permalink)
Pulled camera cards yesterday. Of course, the camera by my tree house died on 9-5, even though the batteries were at 3/4 full on 8-25 when I last pulled cards. So I lost almost a month worth of data.

No matter — there were does and fawns (the same ones most of the time) almost every day at all times of the day or night.

There were four, count them, four, different 4-points — all without brow tines. Good thing AR is improving the herd. These guys, just by sheer numbers, will probably get to pass on that wonderful no brow tines gene since they are safe from being removed from the herd (there are no youth hunters on any of the surrounding properties).

They will also necessitate careful examination of any bucks to make sure they are legal.

With knowing what I have as resident bucks, I’m going to pass on the first 3-4 weeks of the season until rutting neighbor bucks start showing up.

I have two 1.5 year old English Pointers to keep training (it would be nice not to have 80+ degree days with no wind to make it a little easier). The state pheasant hunting championship is 10/12 and I would like to enter one or both puppies. But they have a long way to go and a short time to get there.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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anzomcik
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/10/02 11:37:20 (permalink)
DarDys
 There were four, count them, four, different 4-points — all without brow tines. Good thing AR is improving the herd. These guys, just by sheer numbers, will probably get to pass on that wonderful no brow tines gene since they are safe from being removed from the herd (there are no youth hunters on any of the surrounding properties).



Correct me if I'm wrong, but the sarcastic remark about AR improving the herd is then proven correct in theory by the following sentence you wrote?
 
It can be interrupted that "these small bucks will not get shot because they do not meet the minimum, leaving them to live another year" Most cases those small non legals right now will become legal the following year, not all the time, but majority.
 
Isnt that the point of AR?
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/10/02 11:53:42 (permalink)
anzomcik
DarDys
There were four, count them, four, different 4-points — all without brow tines. Good thing AR is improving the herd. These guys, just by sheer numbers, will probably get to pass on that wonderful no brow tines gene since they are safe from being removed from the herd (there are no youth hunters on any of the surrounding properties).



Correct me if I'm wrong, but the sarcastic remark about AR improving the herd is then proven correct in theory by the following sentence you wrote?
 
It can be interrupted that "these small bucks will not get shot because they do not meet the minimum, leaving them to live another year" Most cases those small non legals right now will become legal the following year, not all the time, but majority.
 
Isnt that the point of AR?


Beg your pardon Anzo but DarDys also noted "no youth's"...... hello?

No youths is something the PGC does not include in thier studies as evidenced by the deer herds in specific areas.

If the AR's were to truely benefit "all" hunters (as blown up our asz's by the PGC) then the AR's need be written for "all" hunters of "all" ages and just not the specific few, who hunt for the record books.

AR's need include ALL HUNTERS OF ALL AGES...... HELLO?
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2019/10/02 11:54:56

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#21
anzomcik
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/10/02 12:06:32 (permalink)
 
The point your bringing up, really had nothing to do with my above post, not sure where your trying to shoe horn that in at.
 
However if you didn't catch it I will explain it another way. AR are in place to advance the average age of bucks being harvested in the state. So a spike or 4 point at age 1.5 will more than likely will not get harvested by a hunter, giving it an opportunity to live to age 2.5 where typically their rack will meet the state minimum. Now it can be fair game and legally harvested. With more 2.5yo bucks getting shot the average age of harvested bucks will increase compared to years prior to the law. 
#22
DarDys
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/10/02 12:11:13 (permalink)
The remarks are based on there being a gene pool in this particular area that contains the propensity for throwing no brow tines. I first observed it over 20+ years ago. Then, those deer were legal and often were removed from the herd.

Now, that gene pool is protected, except in the case of junior hunters, and there are none of those that hunt on any of the surrounding properties which in total comprise approximately 1,500 — 2,000 acres. As the number of bucks with this gene increases, which it will, the mathematical odds of it being passed on increases.

Please keep in mind that this isn’t the same as a spike that might grow into something else. Once it has no brow tines (or one brow tine or weak beams that break on one side or the other or any other recessive gene), it does not and cannot grow out of it.

Of course, it may go away in some cases in the off spring if the doe genes prevent it, but with each successive breeding that likelihood goes down.

There is a reason that those that raise any animals for desired traits cull those with recessives.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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rsquared
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/10/02 12:20:35 (permalink)
anzomcik
 
 
Isnt that the point of AR?




The point of AR in our state was to get hunters to shoot more does.  It was the sizzle to sell the steak of herd reduction.  Can't fill your buck tag, but want some venison?  Shoot more does.  It really is that simple.  
 
 
 
 
 
#24
BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/10/02 12:54:58 (permalink)
anzomcik
 
The point your bringing up, really had nothing to do with my above post, not sure where your trying to shoe horn that in at.
 
However if you didn't catch it I will explain it another way. AR are in place to advance the average age of bucks being harvested in the state. So a spike or 4 point at age 1.5 will more than likely will not get harvested by a hunter, giving it an opportunity to live to age 2.5 where typically their rack will meet the state minimum. Now it can be fair game and legally harvested. With more 2.5yo bucks getting shot the average age of harvested bucks will increase compared to years prior to the law. 



"IF" that buck lives only where there are "no" youth hunters.

However, let me explain. The PGC does not take into consideration the population and age of the hunter. Therefore the AR's do not benefit or work as was blown.

Dave I agree with your statement and that's exactly what we were told. If you can't shoot a legal buck, shoot a doe. If your're meat eater.... shoot a doe. (a slap in the face to the genuine hunter of the time)

Looks to me, ARs are intended to "force" the hunter to buy more doe tags, for the mere purpose of raising funds.

AR's are not working as we were told they would, except in limited specific areas.

Those areas in my book, were ment to, benefit a specific few record book hunters.

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#25
anzomcik
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/10/02 12:55:35 (permalink)
DarDys
The remarks are based on there being a gene pool in this particular area that contains the propensity for throwing no brow tines. I first observed it over 20+ years ago. Then, those deer were legal and often were removed from the herd.

Now, that gene pool is protected, except in the case of junior hunters, and there are none of those that hunt on any of the surrounding properties which in total comprise approximately 1,500 — 2,000 acres. As the number of bucks with this gene increases, which it will, the mathematical odds of it being passed on increases.

Please keep in mind that this isn’t the same as a spike that might grow into something else. Once it has no brow tines (or one brow tine or weak beams that break on one side or the other or any other recessive gene), it does not and cannot grow out of it.

Of course, it may go away in some cases in the off spring if the doe genes prevent it, but with each successive breeding that likelihood goes down.

There is a reason that those that raise any animals for desired traits cull those with recessives.



You have my attention, i am very interested in your observation. I have some questions.
 
So a spike can go into buck with brow tines, but if a 1.5 yo 4 point will never have brow tines as long as it lives? Is that what your saying?  
 
Does a 1.5 yo 4 point ever grow more points? Have you observed in your experience 6 or 8 point bucks with out brow tines at the density you see 4 point bucks? (question is trying to see if the no brow tine trait is still there with the addition of g3,4s in the typical location)
 
Once a 4 point always a 4 point?
 
What age do you feel the 4 buck on camera are?
 
I get several 4 point bucks on camera each year and have noticed what you described.
 
#26
DarDys
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/10/02 12:59:20 (permalink)
Bingo — we have a winner!

If genetics determine an eye color or stature, it doesn’t matter how old that specimen becomes. Same with the recessives for no brow tines.

I’ve had some of these four on camera and in person for five years. All they are is taller, wider, and heavier — but still not legal — never were, never will be. And each time they produce an offspring, the more likely that gene carries forward. And the more of those cohorts in the population, the more likely they are to produce offspring.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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anzomcik
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/10/02 13:06:53 (permalink)
BeenThereDoneThat.

However, let me explain. The PGC does not take into consideration the population and age of the hunter. Therefore the AR's do not benefit or work as was blown.

AR's are not working as we were told they would, except in limited specific areas.



Post up a link or study showing what your trying to say, I do not understand what your getting it. I am not saying you do not have a valid point, I am honestly lost at what your referring to.
 
BTW it cant be published from the PGC or Penn State. Years prior you discredited anything published from those two sources. 
 
 
 
 
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anzomcik
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/10/02 13:10:53 (permalink)
DarDys
Bingo — we have a winner!

If genetics determine an eye color or stature, it doesn’t matter how old that specimen becomes. Same with the recessives for no brow tines.

I’ve had some of these four on camera and in person for five years. All they are is taller, wider, and heavier — but still not legal — never were, never will be. And each time they produce an offspring, the more likely that gene carries forward. And the more of those cohorts in the population, the more likely they are to produce offspring.



 
Ok i want to get this strait. Are you saying you have 6.5 YO 4 point bucks? (5 year experience, doesn't grow its first rack until age 1)
 
Do you believe this is only a trait unique to your area?
 
If you could post these photos I would love to see them
#29
DarDys
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Re: Archery season 2019 2019/10/02 13:17:50 (permalink)
anzomcik
DarDys
The remarks are based on there being a gene pool in this particular area that contains the propensity for throwing no brow tines. I first observed it over 20+ years ago. Then, those deer were legal and often were removed from the herd.

Now, that gene pool is protected, except in the case of junior hunters, and there are none of those that hunt on any of the surrounding properties which in total comprise approximately 1,500 — 2,000 acres. As the number of bucks with this gene increases, which it will, the mathematical odds of it being passed on increases.

Please keep in mind that this isn’t the same as a spike that might grow into something else. Once it has no brow tines (or one brow tine or weak beams that break on one side or the other or any other recessive gene), it does not and cannot grow out of it.

Of course, it may go away in some cases in the off spring if the doe genes prevent it, but with each successive breeding that likelihood goes down.

There is a reason that those that raise any animals for desired traits cull those with recessives.



You have my attention, i am very interested in your observation. I have some questions.
 
So a spike can go into buck with brow tines, but if a 1.5 yo 4 point will never have brow tines as long as it lives? Is that what your saying?  
 
Does a 1.5 yo 4 point ever grow more points? Have you observed in your experience 6 or 8 point bucks with out brow tines at the density you see 4 point bucks? (question is trying to see if the no brow tine trait is still there with the addition of g3,4s in the typical location)
 
Once a 4 point always a 4 point?
 
What age do you feel the 4 buck on camera are?
 
I get several 4 point bucks on camera each year and have noticed what you described.
 


Excellent questions.

The spike to something bigger later on is not genetically based, but rather has to do with the maturation process, which may include nutrition, birth order, number of siblings, etc. that has an effect their first set of antlers.

The spike to a spike to a spike is a recessive gene, just like no brow tines. Once no brow tines (excepting if they were broken off), always no brow tines. It’s like your genes being determined to stature — that doesn’t change. If your (and I don’t mean you specifically) genes throughout your parents, grandparents, and great grandparents show no offspring over 6 feet tall, the odds are slim, no matter what you eat, no matter how much you exercise, and no matter how long you live, that you will be 6 feet or taller.

Selective breeding is a mathematical drive science. And the surest way to remove the undesirable trait is to remove the recessive gene by removing the inferior specimens that exhibit that trait. But we do the opposite.

I’ve seen these 4-points be 18” wide and not start to curve until well above the ears. Still no brow tines. Some of these are 5 years old. Of those I mentioned in the initial post, only one is a youngster.

These recessives also throw other undesirable antler qualities as well. When my family hunted deer in a certain section of Clearfield County , we collected over 100 sets of antlers (pre to just after AR). There were four distinct gene pools for antlers.

One broke off right above the G-2 on one side (I don’t recall anymore which side); one broke off right at the head (it was the opposite side of the previous); one was tall and thin; and the last was wide, heavy, at least 8-points (I actually shot a buck in 1986 that was the exact same as one my father shot in 1963 when PA first imported deer from Michigan).

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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