Helpful ReplyTodays PGC meeting(many changes)

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CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/04 17:54:31 (permalink)
Wonder why they don't just tranquilize the deer and test for CWD. Seems a shame to kill off all the ones that aren't infected with the virus. This is one stupid radical plan with no guarantees at all other than the basic lowering math kill.
Take away so many and the virus goes down in numbers ......no sh#t !....but it's still there !
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dpms
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/04 18:06:22 (permalink)
CAPTAIN HOOK
Wonder why they don't just tranquilize the deer and test for CWD. Seems a shame to kill off all the ones that aren't infected with the virus. This is one stupid radical plan with no guarantees at all other than the basic lowering math kill.
Take away so many and the virus goes down in numbers ......no sh#t !....but it's still there !



Currently, deer have to be killed to test for CWD. They are working on a test than can be done without killing the deer. 

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CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/04 21:30:44 (permalink)
Wow ...you have to die to be tested then if your okay your still dead ! ....lol
 
Crazy virus ....my buddy says it started from fenced in deer farming out west but I'm reading it came from sheep . What's your take or the PGC saying? Seems it's widespread across our country.
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/05 07:58:11 (permalink)
The cause is a Prion which is an infectious protein particle. It is not the typical virus or bacteria that causes most diseases. This infectious prion can remain in soils for decades and that is the problem with it. The western states became ground zero but the interstate trading and selling of animals that were infected has spread the disease to many parts of the country. It has the potential to be very bad for the cervid family. Currently it has not been proven that the disease can be transmitted to humans through consumption of an infected animal but all it would take is one mutation is it could leap species.
 
The western states seem to have been able to manage CWD through strict regulations. It is relatively new to the east so game agencies are just getting  their feet wet trying to stay ahead of it.
 
I am not sure anybody knows the most effective way to contain or eliminate it is. But doing nothing is not the answer.

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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/05 09:11:14 (permalink)
If it stays in the soil for "decades" that sounds like an impossible battle right now . Wonder if it affects other wild or tame animals in the area also ?  Seems it would to me other wise they have some kind of immunity or it spreads another way. I guess we'll hopefully let the biologists and scientist figure something, but this sounds like a major death blow to hunting in those areas affected for a long time and maybe all deer hunting period !
 
 Contagious or not if an animal or fish is sick I'm surely not eating the meat  !
 
Thanks to all the antler deer growing farms for all the rich boys to hunt we end up with hunting nightmare !
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dpms
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/05 09:56:25 (permalink)
CAPTAIN HOOK
If it stays in the soil for "decades" that sounds like an impossible battle right now . Wonder if it affects other wild or tame animals in the area also ?

 
Only cervids. That is the concern here cause of our relatively small but important elk population.
 
Seems it would to me other wise they have some kind of immunity or it spreads another way. I guess we'll hopefully let the biologists and scientist figure something, but this sounds like a major death blow to hunting in those areas affected for a long time and maybe all deer hunting period !

 
It may be but it I tough to really know the long term outcomes. It has been around out west for a very long time and it seems to have been somewhat controlled. It is possible the animals will evolve to resist CWD through natural selection.
 
Contagious or not if an animal or fish is sick I'm surely not eating the meat  !

 
That's the problem with CWD. A deer can be CWD positive but have no signs. It is only at the end of the process do they exhibit symptoms. A deer can live several years being positive before the disease manifests into symptoms. The only way to know if a deer is CWD positive is to have it tested.
 
Thanks to all the antler deer growing farms for all the rich boys to hunt we end up with hunting nightmare !



That is part of the issue. Cervids are also farmed for meat. Most of the wild game served in this country and around the world is farmed.

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DarDys
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/05 10:19:22 (permalink)
Why is doing nothing not the answer?

It doesn’t affect humans.

It doesn’t kill deer until late in their life 7+ years old), if at all.

Most deer are resistant to it.

Oh, because the elk herd, which has less than 20 hunters per year is more important than the 500,000 deer hunters. It makes sense now.

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dpms
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/05 10:25:07 (permalink)
DarDys
Why is doing nothing not the answer?
It doesn’t affect humans.

 
Not yet. These type of diseases can mutate and jump barriers.
 
As far as doing nothing. Wisconsin which has areas with high infection rates, has seen significant declines in deer populations in these areas. The state is also suffering very rapid hunter loss coinciding with the CWD outbreak. The fact is, and you will probably disagree, is that many hunters just don't want to take the chance of eating an infected deer.
 
It doesn’t kill deer until late in their life 7+ years old), if at all.

Most deer are resistant to it.

 
Not sure where you are getting your information from? Current research shows CWD is always fatal and cervids have died long before 7 years old. Last I read 3-4 years is relatively common for animals that were infected early in life.




post edited by dpms - 2019/02/05 10:32:02

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#38
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/05 12:00:57 (permalink)
Somebody mention "Elk".....?

"As far as doing nothing. Wisconsin which has areas with high infection rates, has seen significant declines in deer populations in these areas" ~ dpms

So has Pennsylvania only not from CWD, but from PGC.

"Current research shows CWD is always fatal and cervids have died long before 7 years old. Last I read 3-4 years is relatively common for animals that were infected early in life." ~ dpms

A whitetail survives 3 to 4 years "if" infected "early". So how does this AR thingy work again?

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
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DarDys
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/05 13:13:57 (permalink)
dpms
DarDys
Why is doing nothing not the answer?
It doesn’t affect humans.

 
Not yet. These type of diseases can mutate and jump barriers.
 
As far as doing nothing. Wisconsin which has areas with high infection rates, has seen significant declines in deer populations in these areas. The state is also suffering very rapid hunter loss coinciding with the CWD outbreak. The fact is, and you will probably disagree, is that many hunters just don't want to take the chance of eating an infected deer.
 
It doesn’t kill deer until late in their life 7+ years old), if at all.

Most deer are resistant to it.

 
Not sure where you are getting your information from? Current research shows CWD is always fatal and cervids have died long before 7 years old. Last I read 3-4 years is relatively common for animals that were infected early in life.






My information came from conversations with the research team at Purdue. Conversations are those things that gets the research results that do not get published because they are contrary to the narrative of those funding the research.

Those conversations revealed, at the time (this was a few years ago) that no, as in none, not a single one, nada, deer in the wild had been found dead due to CWD. Those that died in captivity were 7+ years old (most approaching 9) and the cause of death was CWD and other complications due to age. In other words, they died with CWD, not necessarily of it.

But, just for debate’s sake (I really appreciate the friendly discourse), let’s make the leap that deer die of CWD. Let’s take the further leap that they die at an earlier age, like 3-4 years. And finally, let’s take the leap that a significant portion of the population is susceptible (most are actually resistant, just like every other creature — even the plague didn’t kill everyone). In other words, it is a perfect storm in favor of CWD.

If nothing is done, what percentage of the deer population dies?

Is it greater than, less than, or equal to the 50-60% of the population that the PGC proposes killing for this “experiment” if the originally proposed area of Scotch Valley were included (which it is not due to the information provided in previous posts about the very wealthy landowners threatening legal action)?

Is it greater than, less than, or equal to the 75-90% of the population in the newly proposed kill area (since the kill goal number, not percentage, was not adjusted from the highly populated Scotch Valley area that is now off the table)?

Because if less deer die by doing nothing, and let nature take its course, that is the way to go.

Keep in mind, the situation is probably no where near the perfect storm for CWD as hypothesized above; there is no way to know that the deer killed have or are even susceptible to CWD; and that it will cause even more hunters to abandon the sport.

I’ll take my chances on doing nothing.

On a side note, longer seasons probably will not work in this area either. You can’t shoot what you can’t see.

I spent over 100 hours on stand this season — mornings and evenings on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, plus evenings on Fridays, for the last three weeks of archery and the general season. I saw one legal buck in archery (too far and too close to dark to try to call) and 6 does ( same deal, too far, too close to dark). In the general season, I saw two spikes, three does, and one unidentifiable, all on the same evening (does were right at dark and probably after legal shooting hours). That was it.

I heard a grand total of 5 shots in the general season, including the SGL, which is less than 1/2 mile away, that the PGC proposes baiting for this slaughter. I heard no shots in archery (sorry, had to lighten this up a bit).

I had a senior hunter who hunted either the morning or evening of the early senior doe season, plus all day the opening day, and either the morning or evening of the Mondays and Wednesdays of the general season. He saw zero deer. He heard 7 shots, including the opening day.

The neighbor to the south had 4 hunters that were out part of every day of archery and the general season. They killed no deer in archery and no deer in the general season. They did fire 4 shots in the general season at does, but did not hit anything.

My wife’s relatives hunt the 5 properties to the north and east. They killed two does, one fawn (female), and one non AR legal buck by a junior hunter — all in archery season. They saw no deer during the first week of the general season, so they gave up and did not hunt the second week.

This is similar to what other friends and neighbors were seeing within about a 5 mile radius. Many gave up after going 3-5 times without seeing a single deer.

So, purposely cutting the population for an experiment isn’t viewed too fondly.

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dpms
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/05 13:44:02 (permalink)
DarDys
If nothing is done, what percentage of the deer population dies?

 
In some areas of Wisconsin, up to 20% of the deer are CWD positive. It is always fatal. The percent of positives is increasing every year. Now, many of these deer will die from other causes before the CWD manifests as the average lifespan of a whitetail in the eastern US is 4 or less. But, even though they are not dying from CWD, they are walking around shedding prions and infecting more deer, which is why the infection rate is increasing. 
 
It is a compounding problem that could lead to increasing percentages of positive CWD deer. Despite you disagreeing, many hunters are hesitant to eat deer from CWD areas and are especially hesitant to eat a deer they know is CWD positive. This leads to not only higher infection rates, but a drop in hunter numbers and hunting pressure where deer need to be harvested from. 
 
I am curious about your statement that most deer are naturally resistant to CWD. Where is this info from? Have controlled studies been done that show that most deer exposed to CWD do not become infected? 
 
post edited by dpms - 2019/02/05 14:26:03

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DarDys
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/05 15:59:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby CAPTAIN HOOK 2019/02/05 19:12:35
Same source.

The drop in hunter numbers around this area has nothing to do with CWD and all to go with going 3-5 days without seeing a deer.
post edited by DarDys - 2019/02/05 16:00:45

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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/05 16:36:12 (permalink)
The PGC just called the experiment off.

It will be interesting to see who’s neighborhood they try next.

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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/05 16:45:21 (permalink)
DarDys
The drop in hunter numbers around this area has nothing to do with CWD and all to go with going 3-5 days without seeing a deer.



I would agree. CWD is not well established here in Pa. I hope it stays that way. 

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CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/05 19:49:13 (permalink)
My friends like to discuss why deer hunting (rifle ) has dropped way off.  I see it like Dar Dys, when hunters go days without seeing deer or can't shoot bucks they finally do see (AR) it becomes less interesting especially in cold or wet weather.
 
My one buddy blames it on video games " these kids are too lazy to hunt " he says. I say if you go out and see very few or no deer how is that exciting to young hunters. Remember when we were young we seen lots of deer throughout the day , maybe we didn't shoot, but at least it stayed hopeful seeing deer. Plus once you seen a buck you were able to shoot , not hold back and look or try to count tines then get more disappointed if it's not legal or out of range because you had to keep looking good!
 
 Maybe us old guys don't care about getting a deer as bad, because we've killed our share , so we enjoy the woods regardless, but young hunters want to shoot not look at trees and squirrels and hear about the good old days !....lol  
 
Since AR's slowed the buck shooting down and pushing the antlerless seasons back they (PGC) have screwed up the future interest for a lot of hunters . I see less hunters wanting to freeze in the woods and not shoot day after day, year after year.
 
and now CWD .......there will be even more long gone !
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/07 11:53:53 (permalink)
Two Squirrel Monkeys were inoculated with brain tissue from a CWD infected Mule Deer and became infected. Thus proving that the disease is transferable to primates. It really makes me wonder why Cows have not become infected. Perhaps we will all become vegans. You all must already be aware of the prion disease that has been present in Squirrels with fairly good chance humans may have got the Creutzfeldt- Jacobs disease from eating squirrels.
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/08 07:41:12 (permalink)
DarDys
The PGC just called the experiment off.



Reducing deer numbers will not be part of project in bedford, blair counties this yea

Too few landowners gave permission, Game Commission will continue work to educate public about CWD.

The Pennsylvania Game Commission has not received the necessary support from landowners in Bedford and Blair counties to move forward with plans to reduce the deer population in a 100-square-mile area as part of a pilot project on chronic wasting disease (CWD).

Reducing deer numbers was part of a strategy to reduce the effect and spread of CWD.

Other phases of the project, including placing GPS collars on deer to study their movements and survival, will continue. And it’s hoped that, by next year, increased awareness about CWD and the threat the disease poses to deer and elk statewide will bring about the support necessary locally to begin the phase of the project that has been put on hold.

While deer will not be taken in the pilot project this year, the Game Commission still is working to coordinate isolated targeted-removal operations in other areas where a solitary CWD-positive deer has been detected.

The pilot project and the response plan to conduct targeted-removal operations when a solitary CWD-positive deer is detected both were explained in detail at the Pennsylvania Board of Game Commissioners meeting Jan. 28 and are available to view at the agency’s YouTube channel.

Targeted removal of deer to combat CWD always takes place following the close of hunting seasons, ensuring that hunters always have the first opportunity to take deer in a given area.

But where targeted removal of deer must occur on private land, it is done with landowner permission.

In recent weeks, staff with the U.S. Department of Agriculture Wildlife Services (USDA-WS) began seeking landowner permission for targeted removal of deer to occur as part of the pilot project within Deer Management Assistance Program Unit 2874 in Bedford and Blair counties. Few permissions were secured.

“While the lack of access to private land is unfortunate, it could well demonstrate there is work to do when it comes to educating the public about CWD, and we will be ramping up our efforts to bring the facts about this disease and its potential impacts on Pennsylvania to light,” said Game Commission Bureau of Wildlife Management Director Matthew Schnupp. “As it is now, CWD has been detected only in a few parts of the state. Our pilot project in Bedford and Blair counties is being conducted where the problem is worst, but hunters in most areas of the state have not had to deal with CWD in the deer that they hunt, or abide by the regulations intended to slow its spread.

“While CWD is here in Pennsylvania, we can manage the disease to limit its spread and protect as many of the state’s deer as we can,” Schnupp said. “And we will continue to work hard to implement disease-control measures that benefit Pennsylvania’s deer and deer-hunting tradition.”

CWD is an always-fatal, incurable disease affecting deer and elk. In recent years in Bedford and Blair counties, the disease has been detected with increasing regularity. For more information on CWD, visit www.pgc.pa.gov

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DarDys
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/08 10:16:38 (permalink)
treesparrow
Two Squirrel Monkeys were inoculated with brain tissue from a CWD infected Mule Deer and became infected. Thus proving that the disease is transferable to primates. It really makes me wonder why Cows have not become infected. Perhaps we will all become vegans. You all must already be aware of the prion disease that has been present in Squirrels with fairly good chance humans may have got the Creutzfeldt- Jacobs disease from eating squirrels.


Since I’m fairly familiar with academic DOE (design of experiment); how studies are funded; and academic careers made, here is a little view of studies such as this.

Remember back in 8th grade physics how the experiments only worked “in a vacuum?” Same deal here. It all comes down to possibly vs. probablity.

This study shows that on an extremely small cohort that taking CWD tissue directly from the brain/spine from a known infected animal (the quantity is unknown, but typically in these types of DOE start at 1000X or more of the maximum possible level) and injecting it directly into the brain (and more than likely, into a very specific spot). And the CWD was transferred. No kidding. Pour water in a glass and it gets wet. So it is a possibility.

In the academic study business, once there is a possibility, on the broadest terms (usually 3-5 year study to get there), the study ends with something like “however, further study is needed.” This means another funding grant and another 3-5 years of research. Typically, one variable is changed, like cutting the dose in half (still way over the maximum); expanding the cohort size (to understand if the original results were statistically valid); or anything else that fits those finding the study narrative, by still showing that the results are possible, but staying far away from the word “probable.” Of course, the study ends with the same “and further research is needed” claim.

Further research is needed to again come closer to reality, and probability; get more grant funding; publish more articles (very important if the researcher is trying to achieve tenure — publish or perish is the term); and push the next research out another 3-5 years in order to get closer to spending the researcher’s entire career, up to retirement, on a single study area, where, thanks to publishing a whole slew of articles, they are now revered in a small academic community as subject matter experts.

If the studies go one for 15, 20, 25 years, the researcher never gets to the probability end of the study before retirement. Throughout, they have proven that whatever they are studying is possible. Winning the Powerball is possible. But not probable. Winning the Powerball is possible twice in a row, after all, it is just a random number generator. But it is no very probable. Winning the Powerball 1,000 times in a row is possible, but the probability is low.

Now, if the study mirrored reality, meaning, that a statistically significant cohort group of monkeys (read that as probably thousands, and to do it right, not the same species); were fed cervid flesh, the same flesh humans eat, not the brain or spinal tissues (which is very rarely eaten by humans, but a small population probably does — too bad for them); in the quantities proportional to how much venison the typical human eats over a period of time; and that cervid flesh came from a cohort group that had the same percentage of infestation of CWD that wild populations exhibit, them the experiment would come closer to getting to the probability of humans contracting CWD from cervids in the basis of how they actually consume venison.

But that study will more than likely never get done. There is no money in it. There are no articles (maybe one) in it. And, most importantly, there is no career long opportunity in it.

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DarDys
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/08 11:19:14 (permalink)
Here is what the PGC needs further educated on — if hunter numbers keep dropping at the current rate or faster, the agency will no longer be self sustaining and will need to merge (maybe that’s the plan) in order for some of them to keep their jobs.

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CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/08 14:15:56 (permalink)
So if the PGC wants to wipe out more deer to lower numbers to help stop the spread of CWD then why in the hill are there antler restrictions ? Why is doe and buck both not legal on opening day of rifle ? The PGC makes no common sense, they want deer removed or numbers lowered but restrict the shooting ! How much quicker will this spread to other areas with lower hunter numbers now and more deer being protected with restrictions ?
 
So hunters need educated more on CWD and have to learn " to accept the wipeout phase" in isolated areas that they want to do. Even if one deer has been detected they want to wipe out the whole herd in that area....hmmm I believe deer can roam 10 miles without an issue in a day . Not very isolated to me ! Somebody needs to educate the PGC that all they are doing is masking the problem with a fast slaughterhouse remedy with no guarantees of stopping one case of CWD. 
 
So much for trophy deer in those areas after the PGC Armageddon  ! Keep micro managing hunting it's working great in Pa. just look at all the happy hunters leaving the sport ! 
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dpms
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/08 15:42:19 (permalink)
CAPTAIN HOOK
So if the PGC wants to wipe out more deer to lower numbers to help stop the spread of CWD then why in the hill are there antler restrictions ? 



The PGC wants to lower deer numbers in those areas. The only way to lower deer numbers over the long term is to shoot does. If a hunter shoots a buck, they are less likely to shoot a doe. That is why antler restrictions are still in place in the SRAs, where deer numbers also need to be reduced. The PGC wants to encourage hunters to shoot does so making it harder to get a buck helps. 
 
Why is doe and buck both not legal on opening day of rifle ?

 
Good question. In the CWD management zones, I would agree that buck and doe should be legal the entire season, if the goal is to lower the population. 
 
 

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DarDys
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/08 16:23:14 (permalink)
They are both legal in CWD zones with a CWD tag every day of every season.

Still can’t shoot them if you can’t see them.

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CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/08 22:16:01 (permalink)
Didn't know that it was open season in those CWD areas on both....makes sense.  
 
A few questions on CWD.....
Those CWD tags how many can one hunter receive ? Are they free ?
Did they estimate how many CWD tags were issued out ?
How long has your area been under a CWD warning ?
When one shoots a deer in a CWD zone does it get tested and if it does who pays for testing ?
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DarDys
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/09 07:25:22 (permalink)
I believe it has been 5 seasons of CWD, maybe 4, maybe 6.

The system of CWD tags changed. At first, up until 2 years ago, it was an online application or mail-in. I’m not sure how many one could get as a maximum, but I got 2. I think the number sold was capped at 14,000. Yep, that many. They cost the same as a doe tag.

Two years ago, the system switched to being able to buy over the counter at time of license purchase. Maximum was 2. The price was still the same a a doe tag.

If you wanted the deer tested, you could request it from the PGC. It was free, but took 4-6 months to get the results.

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#54
fishin coyote
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/09 07:40:50 (permalink)
Typical PGC policy. They say they want the hunters to control the numbers but hey let’s make money doing it that way. So now when they cannot sell/get enough killed they want to pay sharpshooters.

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#55
dpms
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/09 08:20:29 (permalink)
DarDys
They are both legal in CWD zones with a CWD tag every day of every season.



Can you link me this info please or copy and paste here? 

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#56
DarDys
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/09 09:01:30 (permalink)
Check out the DMA info on the PGC website.

Instead of calling it the CWD program or permit like they did in the early portion of the program, it now falls under the DMAP program.

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#57
dpms
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/09 09:15:29 (permalink)
DarDys
Check out the DMA info on the PGC website.

Instead of calling it the CWD program or permit like they did in the early portion of the program, it now falls under the DMAP program.



Ah. Didn't realize DMAP allowed antleress the entire season. 

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#58
DarDys
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/09 10:00:11 (permalink)
Even when they called it CWD, it was open the entire season.

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#59
DarDys
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Re: Todays PGC meeting(many changes) 2019/02/09 10:14:28 (permalink)
They had to change the name from CWD to DMA using DMAP because they did too good a job of educating hunters about CWD and then thinking they scared them into not shooting does.

BTW, DMA and DMAP are required to have 100% reporting, kill or not, under penalty of not getting a permit the next year.

So where is that data? And does it correspond with the kill ratio numbers that the PGC used to calculate the regular harvest?

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#60
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