Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs

I agree . Seen guides profut off of fish we pay for. True shame

if it's a business venture profiting from a public funded resource (fish) 
I wouldn't have a knee jerk anti reaction to some type of "usage fee/tax" for  the biz owner
I'd like to see details though before I'd commit yea or nay 
 
I don't support it for guides though.
I don't support a landowner restriction on who they  let fish there 
(assuming it's not a for profit biz venture) 
Don't support nursery water designation 
and don't support unrealistic "put 'em out of business"  usage  fees/taxes.
That's just bullchit jealously at root there 
 
..L.T.A. 

I would agree with #2 or #3 above.
I would consider #4 if modified to say specific months, not all year.
Maybe #1 should be something like a fee per customer, with documented customer names & addresses for verification - how about a "private water trout stamp"!

Why would anyone want to guide Erie county in the first place? 
 
Secondly, i'm fine with all of the land owner/guide rights. Since we know both items are not going away, how about a compromise with some state owned C and R only stretches with an additional fee on a license to fish them. I.e. buy the water before it is posted, pay for it with conservationist public fisherman's money. 

I have come to the conclusion ...IT IS WHAT IT IS
WCW

WCO's are drones, and they don't leave the truck now.
Our last 3 visits to Walnut, watched him circle parking lot twice then left.
Never even put it in park!
The fish survey kid with the clipboard spends more time on foot than the WCO.

Indiana Lou
Hohbo, I'm all for catch and release on trout streams. But I don't think it would have the results you anticipate since the steelhead are migrating. Those fish in a C&R area today will be 300 yards (or more) tomorrow and very possible hanging from a blue or yellow rope. As for the brown trout, do they follow the steelhead as they move to get the possible eggs they drop? Maybe if you make certain streams totally C&R it would get the wanted results. Just a thought.    Lou

 
Id rather fish 5 unpressured fish than a huge pod getting beat with powerbait balls, egg flies, and minnows. Yes, they migrate, but if you choose the C and R section wisely, you could easily get a pool that holds all year long. How often do you fish the same "spot" time after time and there are fish 6 months out of the year.... for sake of conversation, say, "The Manchester hole". 
 
This is all theoretical and nothing more. Nothing is going to change. State gets paid, we create the circus and litter and the owners will continue to post the land. 
 

I love when this argument starts up every year.
Everyone compains about the landowners being greedy and profiting off the states fish.
Its not there fault the state stocked non-native trout in the creeks and invited thousands of people to come catch them.
What would you do if you owned a half-mile of Erie trib?
Would you let the public fish it 24 hours a day in the fall?
Would you just deal with people parking and littering all over the place?
I'm willing to bet most people complaining about private stretches of the creeks would kick people off their land in a heartbeat if they had any.

dano

genieman77
That's just bullchit jealously at root there 
..L.T.A. 

 
I thought his/hers whole post was bull poo jealousy.
Every suggestion is anti-landowner, including #1.
The State throws a bunch of fish in the stream and the land owner is supposed to just deal with it or else? That's BS.
And if you restrict these property tax paying landowners, I feel many will post their streams to all fishing resulting in even less water for all of us.  

This^

We can all complain about the situation, but landowners rights are the TRUMP CARD! This issue has been discussed over and over. Contact your congressman, don't post on an inturdnet board and expect anything to gittur done.

flyway
I love when this argument starts up every year.
Everyone compains about the landowners being greedy and profiting off the states fish.
Its not there fault the state stocked non-native trout in the creeks and invited thousands of people to come catch them.
What would you do if you owned a half-mile of Erie trib?
Would you let the public fish it 24 hours a day in the fall?
Would you just deal with people parking and littering all over the place?
I'm willing to bet most people complaining about private stretches of the creeks would kick people off their land in a heartbeat if they had any.

Totally agree.^ 
The argument that "we pay for the fish" does not negate PA landowner law.  Is it frustrating that them stilleez swim to places we can't catch em?  Heck yeah!  If I owned land would I post it?  Heck yeah!  I don't want people walking, littering, peeing and pooping on my land from 5am till dark.  If someone knocked on my door and asked permission I would consider it.  But otherwise...GET OFF MY LAWN! 

To us, it seems that something got lost during all of the posts in this thread -
On the surface, it appears the original poster was talking about "private" lands that are being used "for profit" by guide services and the few "pay to play" organizations and excluding the general fishing public.
 
Somehow it got turned into another "pooping & littering" argument.
Yes - AGREED - landowners have rights to privacy, clean property and security.
 
Look at it from this view -
Your neighbor has a 1000 foot long driveway, his private property...PennDot comes in and patches HIS driveway with patch material that was paid for by YOUR tax dollars and vehicle registration fees - but YOU are not allowed to drive on HIS driveway that was fixed using PUBLIC dollars. 
 
And YES - we think Steelhead 281 just posted his rant to stir the pot, which it did! - since he hasn't been back to defend his position on the subject.
 

BorgCollective
To us, it seems that something got lost during all of the posts in this thread -
On the surface, it appears the original poster was talking about "private" lands that are being used "for profit" by guide services and the few "pay to play" organizations and excluding the general fishing public.
 
Somehow it got turned into another "pooping & littering" argument.
Yes - AGREED - landowners have rights to privacy, clean property and security.
 
Look at it from this view -
Your neighbor has a 1000 foot long driveway, his private property...PennDot comes in and patches HIS driveway with patch material that was paid for by YOUR tax dollars and vehicle registration fees - but YOU are not allowed to drive on HIS driveway that was fixed using PUBLIC dollars. 
 
And YES - we think Steelhead 281 just posted his rant to stir the pot, which it did! - since he hasn't been back to defend his position on the subject.
 

Or, I pay property taxes, but have never had, do not have, and never will have kids in school; am on a private road, so I pay for the road maintenance and plowing; I pay for repairing storm water abatement; the police are not permitted to patrol or be on the property without being called; there are no street lights; there is no driveway mail delivery; I pay for sewer and the maintenance of the pump; the fire department is voluntary; the ambulance is a paid subscription; etc., so in other words, I get just about zero public services for my tax dollars. Using the original poster’s logic, I shouldn’t have to pay those property taxes which support the services that others get, but I don’t.

It could be said that I benefit by having county roads and their maintenance for my tax dollars. Again, using the original poster’s logic, why then should UPS, the garbage collector, or any other commercial venture profit from the roads I pay for?

To extend the original poster’s logic, since I visited Allegheny County when PNC, Heinz Field, and the PPG Center were being built and therefore was subjected to the extra 1% sales tax used to help fund them, I should have as much right to access as those who buy tickets (guides), the players (club members), and the owners (property owners), the latter two of which profit greatly. But, alas, I don’t.

If the original poster has an issue with guides, property owners, and clubs, here is how to fix that — get out your wallet and hire a guide, join a club, or purchase stream property.

Keep in mind that 60% of the license fee goes for administration, so that means that if all the rest went just for steelhead, which it does not, the individual license holder would have a whopping amount that wouldn’t buy dinner at the Avonia Tavern invested. Of course, the sail boater, jet skier, and pleasure boater have more invested, so please don’t catch the fish they paid for through registration fees and sales tax (the only tax dollars the PFBC gets, other than federal kickbacks from sporting goods) which is far more than an individual license holder.

In full disclosure, I do not guide for fish, do not belong to a club that owns water, nor own streamside property in Erie (although I do own stream property).

Thunderpole, good copy on the 30 pack!
 
I can't blame a property owner for posting, considering the total slobs that use the resources. It's been 4 years since I fished off the wall at Walnut, and every trip I collected pop bottles, empty hook packages and other garbage and placed it in the dumpster, which the PFBC was smart enough to provide. I've also picked up garbage from around the dumpster; apparently some people can't hit a 6' x 6' hole. When I fish the river or a lake and I snag up somebody else's broken off line, I wind it up and dispose of it properly when I get back to the ramp. There's more to just bein' a fisherman; ya gotta be a sportsman, too.

dano

genieman77
That's just bullchit jealously at root there 
..L.T.A. 

 
I thought his/hers whole post was bull poo jealousy.

 
pretty much
the outlandish "punitive" fees and regs makes it so imHo.
some of it may be   the "entitlement" mentality so  prevalent in America too.
 
It's not just dem "po-folk" that expect sump'um for nuttin.
There's a whole lot of middle and upper middle class folk that think "recreation in your yard" should be something they're entitled too
after all, they did spend a whole 40 bukz a year for the "right"  .....right?
 
 
there may a valid point to some of it though.
DarDys  made some analogies .
a better analogy might  be a hypothetical one though
If the state stocked an adjacent  land with kazzillions  of pheasants every year..
and they all migrate thru as well as nest on  his property like clockwork....
If  he profits from it  via a private pheasant hunting biz venture, would some user fee/tax be appropriate? 
Or is it just the "luck of the draw" and kudos to his good fortune for happening to own land at the right place/right time?
 
 
 
smoke 'em if you got 'em 
 
..L.T.A.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

genieman77

CAPTAIN HOOK
T It's sad that a small percentage of slob fishermen ruin land access for the majority general caring public.

 
you go back to the "olden days", Capt'n
You witnessed the almost overnight explosion of anglers everywhere in the early '00s  like I and the other Ole Timers did.
 
it's not just the  "slobs" that ruined the party, it was/is the shear volume of us.
In the aggregate, we became a GIANT footprint/presence  on tiny creeks from sun up to sun down
 
 
..L.T.A. 

From sun up to sun down September thru April. Think about that.
 
PT2