Helpful ReplyProblem of stream access/private water/private clubs

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DarDys
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/27 06:10:14 (permalink)
BorgCollective
DarDys:
UPS, garbage collector and commercial ventures pay for the roads too in the form of fuel tax, highway use tax (HUT sticker on the truck door) and vehicle registration fees.
The fire department may be volunteer, but ask to read their audit report and pay particular attention to the part where they receive funds from the township they serve and the neighboring townships if they provide mutual aid.
If we remember the wording correctly, by law, local municipalities are required to provide fire protection to it's residents. If said municipality doesn't have a paid for fire service, they contract out to neighboring communities for the use of their fire protection.
The only thing volunteer about a "volunteer fire department" is the manpower, government money is involved at the root of it.
 
fisherofmen376:
Plural becasue we are a collective of minds. (BorgCollective)


And the guides pay for access, plus a PBFC guide license and fishing license; the clubs pay a lease and for fishing licenses, and the landowners pay property and income taxes, and probably for fishing licenses, so it is a valid position concerning commercial users if roads I pay for in my county with tax dollars that I get no direct services for (while others, like those with kids in school benefit from my tax dollars).

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#31
Erie_flyfishing
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/27 09:18:13 (permalink)
Definitely a tough one. Think both sides need to compromise a little. The land owners need to be restricted but not to the extent some are calling for. I wish Erie had a easement under the water and none of these problems would arise
#32
crawlerman2
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/27 09:32:53 (permalink)
As much as I would love to have access to all of the streams, I can't let my desire to fish override a property owners rights.  I'd like to see an increase in the fish commission buying access.  I also wonder how much more creek we would have to fish if people weren't such slobs.  If I owned property on a creek I can't say I would be very happy with seeing the people I so generously let fish my property throw trash all over and use my yard as their bathroom. 
#33
genieman77
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/27 13:17:57 (permalink)
Erie_flyfishing
. I wish Erie had a easement under the water and none of these problems would arise



No problems for you and me and every other creek tromper
 
But the land owner gets hosed
A "right of way" easement is one thing
It's just that....the right to get on your way 
 
A right of "recreation" and loiter for hours is another
 
Lta
 
 
 
#34
DarDys
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/27 14:45:05 (permalink)
On my home front, the PGC has just done something similar. They did away with the CWD permit and rolled that program into the DMAP program— sort of.

Under the original DMAP program, the land owner has to request so many permits (I believe there is a cost to them) and they decide who to hand them out to.

The CWD part of the new DMAP program works differently. The PGC determined two DMAP zones (larger than a county) and they sold an unlimited amount of DMAP permits (I suspect that was the reason for the change — the CWD permits were capped at 14,000 and sold out).

On the DMAP notification that went to land owners in the DMAP zones, it was made clear that DMAP permit holders “must” secure permission from the land owners. In other words, the PGC sold the permits, put out a map of the DMAP zones, and put the responsibility on the land owners to field requests to hunt — all without asking the landowners if they wanted to be part of the DMAP program.

That kind is smacks is stocking steelhead in the creeks, collecting the license and permit fees, then letting the landowners deal with the onslaught of people.

For two weeks before archery though the present, three days have not gone by without someone in my driveway asking how to access the creek bottom area. They all have the same story, “I was driving by on the highway and saw a bunch of deer in the fields on either side of the wooded creek bottom and I checked and that is in the DMAP zone that I went out and bought a permit for.”

When I explain that access is via my yard, then my field, in order to get the creek bottom, they ask if it is okay to park in my driveway or should they just park in the yard.

I tell them that they cannot park either place and they also cannot hunt there either (I hunt archery this year and I let a retired State Trooper in his 70’s hunt Senior and gun season). Most come back with the comment that they bought the permit, the area is on the program map, and they have the right to hunt. When I explain that they need to secure permission and they aren’t going to do that, some have gotten downright belligerent by yelling and cursing st me or my wife (my neighbor has had the same experience).

Their stance is they bought the permit and that entitled them to hunt the DMAP zone. One must buy a lot of privilege for $7,00.

I’ve had two ATV’s on trail camera riding through the creek bottom, having crossed 3-5 posted properties to get there. I turned the plate numbers over to the police with the instructions to make contact only, put provide the warning that they are not welcome and any further incidents if trespassing will result in arrest. Their excuse was they bought DMAP permits and were looking where to put stands.

In fact, a guy was riding up and down the line between our east neighbor and us for an hour about two weeks ago (the neighbor has their property posted solid as Sears used to be and won’t even let relatives hunt). I finally left the patio dinner table and asked him what he was doing. He relied that he was looking for somewhere to cross, but there was a drainage ditch the entire length.

I told him he could not cross the ditch because I didn’t want him causing any damage to it (the other ATV’s rutted the ditch and I had to dig it back out) and that he wasn’t permitted on our property. He told me that he would just have to ride up the creek bed then. When I told him that was also not okay because it was designated trout waters and that because we owned both sides of the creek, by PA law, we also owner the creek bottom of the non navigable stream.

He flipped out and started screaming how it was BS that he paid for an ATV registration, paid for a fishing license, paid for a hunting license, and paid for a DMAP permit and now I was telling him he couldn’t ride, fish, or hunt there. I politely told him that was the case and he sped off, slinging grass and mud (digging ruts) in the neighbor’s field.

By the way, it was one of the same ATV riders the police had already contacted. Because he stayed on the neighbor’s side, unless they called the police, there was nothing to be done.

So, I can appreciate what the Erie landowners are experiencing, except on a much larger scale. I suspect that when deer gun season gets here, there will be more interaction with DMAP permit holders that the PGC encouraged to buy a permit and provided them a map to show where they could hunt.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#35
dano
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/27 15:28:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby CAPTAIN HOOK 2017/10/31 13:44:44
The easement program is the best we can hope for.
But, the PFBC is going to have to up the ante to get those prime fishing areas from Legion up through Folly's. They need to negotiate on our behalf instead of that take it or leave it price policy. I was surprised how low the offer was for my cousin's piece of stream frontage. 
 
In another 5 years of collecting stamp funds, they could secure most of Elk. 
Here's the latest Easement Fund statement(click):
 
 
  
#36
workcanwait....
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/10/28 09:30:15 (permalink)
Maybe make parking lots at Legion and Folleys or somewhere close and make it STRICTLY access within the stream banks.That way you would have to walk a ways to fish and the rest of the owners property does not get used as parking lot and bathroom and we all know most of the slobs dont like to walk...Jus Dreaming...IS WHAT IT IS...WCW
#37
Rickerd
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/11/09 16:12:00 (permalink)
This still.
The only original suggestion that makes sense is to designate all private land adjacent to the streams, which are navigable, as nursery waters. Unless they comply with allowing access along the rivers, from public access points up to the first flood line. This way nobody gets to fish state funded fish unless all can fish.
 
I was told by fly shop owners in State College that the "Donny Beaver" loss in his court case was going to open up the ability to wander along the waters edge again. I thought that case set the precedent that no private clubs or landowners are allowed to restrict use of their land if accessed in a public place. What gives PA?
#38
fisherofmen376
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2017/11/09 22:43:28 (permalink)
Please. No. More.

"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
Matthew 4:19
#39
dano
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/04/25 09:11:04 (permalink)
dano
The easement program is the best we can hope for......
............In another 5 years of collecting stamp funds, they could secure most of Elk. 
Here's the latest Easement Fund statement(click):



I stand corrected. I should have added "With some big help from Lake Erie Region Conservancy
There is great news half way down the page:   http://www.media.pa.gov/Pages/fish-and-Boat-Commission-Details.aspx?newsid=186
 
post edited by dano - 2018/04/25 09:13:20
#40
workcanwait....
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/04/25 10:20:53 (permalink)
I gotta look at map but that is good news if its area I am thinking of!!!
Thanks for posting link dano
WCW
#41
D-nymph
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/04/25 10:33:42 (permalink)
Shangri la, as it were
#42
CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/04/25 16:58:33 (permalink)
The old Gilmore Farm or Beckman Rd. is where I fished for many years prier to it being posted in the mid 2000's. It was the most pristine, beautiful water around with lots of holding holes and many runs that held Steelhead all season. It requires a long walk of around a half mile into the ravine and a good uphill walk back out. Don't know what it's like now days, but that's great news..... hope to see that area open up soon for fishermen to enjoy.   
#43
pheasant tail 2
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/04/25 21:51:43 (permalink)
That's is good news. I missed fishing the Shangri-La. 
 
PT2
#44
chrisrowboat
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/04/25 23:20:32 (permalink)
Very good news.

Proud to have been a FOT/
I've been out fishing.
Clean your gear/
http://www.fish.state.pa.us/cleanyourgear.htm



#45
workcanwait....
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/04/26 10:21:44 (permalink)
I have not fished Gilmore Farm area before but I hope it is a long walk in and they keep it that way so it keeps some slobs out.
So this is not open yet right but is definetly happening they are doing the paperwork the way I understand it???
WCW
#46
Jester2
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/04/26 15:00:35 (permalink)
This is a tough issue to be sure, with no good solutions. 
 
I'm all for infringing on landowner's rights when they are using OUR resource that OUR license fees paid for to profit. 
 
However, how do we ID them?  We CANNOT infringe on the rights of someone who just doesn't want to deal with the onslaught of fishermen on their land--good, bad, or otherwise. 
 
The most equitable way is probably some type of additional stocking surcharge on membership clubs owning land on stocked waterways, whether Lk Erie watershed or inland (Spruce Ck. is the most notable example in Central PA that I can think of).  This retains the right of the landowner to post, and retains the right of the private club to exist and give it's members the benefit of fishing in an area not accessible to you and I. But, it also recognizes that they should pay an additional share for that privilege. 
 
Those dollars could go for easements or fish. 
#47
Panfisher
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/04/26 21:29:16 (permalink)
CAPTAIN HOOK
The old Gilmore Farm or Beckman Rd. is where I fished for many years prier to it being posted in the mid 2000's. It was the most pristine, beautiful water around with lots of holding holes and many runs that held Steelhead all season. It requires a long walk of around a half mile into the ravine and a good uphill walk back out. Don't know what it's like now days, but that's great news..... hope to see that area open up soon for fishermen to enjoy.   


1.2 miles south of route 90.  Does that go as far as where little Elk comes in?   I never fished that far upstream.  Does that section connect to the landlocked easement they acquired earlier around rt 90?
 
post edited by Panfisher - 2018/04/26 21:33:11

The only thing better than 1 day of fishing is 2 days of fishing.
#48
CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/04/27 00:14:02 (permalink)
Yes it goes a little more south beyond Little Elk to the next bend. I believe it all ties in and opens it up from I-90 south to about 500yards above Little Elk. It doesn't go all the way up to the old covered bridge ....that section was owed by another person and it was always posted. Not sure if that old wooden bridge is still there ....I heard it caught fire years ago never heard the outcome. Gundgeville or something like that I believe it was called?????
 
Like I said years ago it was the best stretch of water on Elk to me.....but Elk changes after winter ice destroys areas ....holes fill up and boulders get moved....I'm sure it still holds good areas but who knows....maybe not as many.
 
Yes it's a good hike in from Beckman Rd....not easy for some for sure.
post edited by CAPTAIN HOOK - 2018/04/27 00:16:39
#49
WVDepscritch
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/04/27 21:57:54 (permalink)
Capt. I don't think it will ever come to pass there is too much money involved with those clubs to ever let it be fished by mere mortals.
#50
CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/04/27 23:26:45 (permalink)
Never know ...it cost money every year to who ever leases it and like I said it's not just a stroll down into that ravine and back out for older fishermen. Plus people traveling from a distance are at the mercy of the weather so who knows. Some people might not want to kick in money every year to something one uses only a few times a year. That's a long hike in especially if no fish are caught a few trips.....but money talks !
#51
WVDepscritch
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/04/28 10:54:00 (permalink)
I dunno,  a friend of mine was in there a few years ago fishing the right hand side of the river, river going downstream which was not posted and was confronted by a couple of thugs from the club, it got pretty ugly, hope you are right and it goes through, I  loved that stretch of river.
#52
CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/04/28 17:20:12 (permalink)
Yea it was great in the day. Don't think I'd go back, just too long for an old guy like me in waders and a 20lb. vest ! 25 years ago I fished it twice a week for many seasons. Hope it opens just so others can enjoy.
#53
WVDepscritch
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/05/01 20:51:37 (permalink)
Capt. you being a resident of Pa and seeming to me to have your ear to the ground, any idea of if and when this may come about?
#54
NWCHROMER
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/05/02 03:29:50 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby workcanwait.... 2018/05/02 11:14:39
I emailed the PFBC asking if the transfer has officially taken place and, if not, when we can expect that to happen.  Here is the response...
 
No, the transfer has not yet taken place. The approval at the Commission meeting was to authorize a grant necessary for the conservancy to move forward with the purchase. As with any land acquisition this takes time and the Commission does not control that timeline. Until the property is officially transferred it is still private property and any posting remain in effect. Once the property is officially transferred I would expect another press release or local notice to be made public.
 
Thomas J Burrell, Lieutenant Colonel
Pa Fish & Boat Commission
Bureau of Law Enforcement
PO Box 67000 Harrisburg Pa 17106
717-705-7866
 
#55
WVDepscritch
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/05/02 21:04:00 (permalink)
Thanks for the info I will keep a good thought but I don't think I will hold my breath:)
#56
thunderpole
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/05/17 15:42:12 (permalink)
Become friends with a guide and get to fish it posted or not lol they know all the honey holes

I'd rather be lucky then good,but im to good to be lucky
#57
WVDepscritch
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/07/25 22:05:23 (permalink)
Any more news on the Gilmore Farm project???
#58
WVDepscritch
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/08/05 20:21:48 (permalink)
Glad I did not hold my breath!
#59
CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Problem of stream access/private water/private clubs 2018/08/06 09:17:06 (permalink)
thunderpole
Become friends with a guide and get to fish it posted or not lol they know all the honey holes



Amen brother ! I just can't fish with private leeches, and fishing hole claimers . So I'll stay alone on free public water far away from the backstabbers and Judases of the private sacred money waters.....lol
 
Free Willy !
#60
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