dumb question

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fichy
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2015/10/25 09:25:01 (permalink)

dumb question

Why does no one strip flies in for steelhead?  When I didn't know any better, I caught a decent wild steelhead in a remote river in Norcal on a crayfish pattern stripped in. I saw the take and duplicated the scenario again. I fish for lots of different species and imitate lots of prey and have learned to imitate what they do. Whether it's a crawdad fleeing in quick, foot long movements , or
 tiny twitches of a nymph or injured baitfish, or long, fast even pulls   to imitate  bigger bait, they all work .  I've been hesitant , as it seems to  also imitate a stealthy snagging motion. I find it no different than retrieving a spinner, jig, or plug.  I researched it, and even some Spey guys use it, especially if they can't get fish to hit. I would think it'd be good around frog water.  I've watched steelhead prowling around slow water looking for easy meals. The only Atlantic I've got in the SR  hit as I stripped  a bugger into slow water.  There's line management issues after the take, but  at least this is an active method where aggressive fish would have to commit. I also liked using jerky strips when trout fishing  when there's tons of leaves. Kind of makes your fly stand out. Thoughts?  I labeled this a thread a dumb question, because I've seen no one doing it, so there's got to be reasons why that I just ain't getting.
#1

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    troutbum21
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/25 09:44:35 (permalink)
    Here's my dumb response, yes, I have used this technique with streamers and muddler minnows on waters other than the SR but is it permitted on the SR?  I'd rather not take the chance of finding out due to the fact that some DEC officer may misinterpret my intent. 
    #2
    fichy
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/25 10:14:58 (permalink)
    That's reasonable logic, I would argue with a DEC guy  that spinning rod retrieves are the same exact thing.  I wouldn't use long strips, just impart some movement with hand strips, not  the rod tip. Really not enough to set the hook, you'd still have to strip strike.  Good point, though.
    #3
    hot tuna
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/25 11:00:52 (permalink)
    Not a dumb question at all, possibly some dumb responses such as mine..
    I would not be worried at all about an issue from the DEC, actually if they were to observe you it would be easily recognized as fly fishing.
    So here are my thoughts :
    It's all about the time when it would be effective.. I base that on water temps and how long a fish has been in the river..
    It is and would be effective towards late march through drop back season.. You all know my feelings as to why the SRS is effective..  In the spring (anywhere from late march -April ) the salmon smolts and fry are in the system, steelhead key on this as it will provide a much larger substance then say a caddis larva..
    Also water temp plays a role, Now when the temps are still up, the fish are more actively moving and not just hunkering or moving when necessary.. Downside to this time such as now, is that thy are keying in on salmon eggs so your competing with the natural food source.
    I find it very hard to get a fish to move very far to "chase" food down during the lethargic times from late November -mid march.. Typically they are wintering over and using fat reserves or feeding tight to the bottom on insect life..
     
    This is all just some B.S. through my observations..
     

    "whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
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    hot tuna
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/25 11:14:58 (permalink)
    Just to add a little more:
    WAY back in the day, plugging (back trolling) was the method most used by the few drift boats on the river , even during winter.. Now there is just to many boats/fishers to use this dying art..
    When we would plug a hole or run , these fish were lethargic and the method would be to put a good size meal holding right in their face digging .. 2 things would happen,
    1-they would hammer it
    2- they would just move slightly to the left or right out of the way..
    When I was a bank angler I always LOVED when a drift boat would plug a hole I was working.. If I was not getting results , the pluggers would "shake" up the fish and it usually resulted in a hook up from the bank due to repositioning of the fish , hence they are seeing my bait/fly from a different vantage point..
     
    Today , with the river full of drift boats and bank anglers, Most drift boaters just anchor up and start bottom bouncing or float fishing from the boat.. This does not create the same effect as plugging, it only adds to an extra amount of lines all doing the same thing
    post edited by hot tuna - 2015/10/25 11:24:01

    "whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
    #5
    Guest
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/25 11:37:43 (permalink)
    .
     
    post edited by rap - 2015/10/25 19:41:04
    #6
    Lucky13
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/25 11:48:34 (permalink)
    If I'm fishing a zonker, or a big intruder, I strip back once in a while as HT says to maybe wake them up.  But most of the time I'm fishing smaller wet flies, or concoctions designed to have some action on a dead drift and swing, so I just mends and swing.  Good article on this (active presentations) in the new Flyfisherman, though.
    #7
    hot tuna
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/25 13:07:55 (permalink)
    A point to The reply Gerry gave .
    On some adk waters I will rip and yank a rapala through pockets and runs that would make a SR snagger look like a saint.
    It's a totally effective method to rip-jerk-pause the lure causing a reactive strike , as opposed to a follow and mostly refuse ,we watch the fish in action.

    Are we snagging fish , heck no . We are intentionally provoking a reaction .
    post edited by hot tuna - 2015/10/25 13:09:48

    "whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
    #8
    pafisher
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/25 13:50:16 (permalink)
    Lucky13
    If I'm fishing a zonker, or a big intruder, I strip back once in a while as HT says to maybe wake them up.  But most of the time I'm fishing smaller wet flies, or concoctions designed to have some action on a dead drift and swing, so I just mends and swing.  Good article on this (active presentations) in the new Flyfisherman, though.


    According to that article you send your dog for a swim in the pool,that stirs them up and then they get interested in your strip retrieve,if you don't have a dog throwing rocks at them works too!Since my Boxer dog doesn't care for swimming I guess it's rocks for me
    #9
    twobob
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/25 16:11:50 (permalink)
    hot tuna
    Just to add a little more:
     
     
    When I was a bank angler I always LOVED when a drift boat would plug a hole I was working.. If I was not getting results , the pluggers would "shake" up the fish and it usually resulted in a hook up from the bank due to repositioning of the fish , hence they are seeing my bait/fly from a different vantage point..


    ^
    This
     
    I do it for coho.
    I don't do it more since it can give the impression of stealth lifting and I would rather not catch anything than even appear to be trying to "hit" the fish rather than have the fish hit.
     
    Good question!
    #10
    fichy
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/25 17:51:20 (permalink)
    I explained that reaction strike business to at least a half dozen people on the coast this slow striper season .  At times, with little bait, stripers were reacting to fast movement, as they were having trouble locating easy prey. If you ripped your fly in with 3 foot, lightning  rapid strips you got bit. Use the standard little 1' medium speed pulls (what I never do) , and you got the stripe. Some guys took my advice, others not. The best was a girl and her boyfriend, whom she outfished  3-0 because she got the sense of what I said. He went with what guys do when the fishing is dumb azz easy because there's a school of small stripers on a school of bait  and they are competing and hyper-aggressive. I'm trying to avoid the little ones.
       For trout in rivers, i often throw to the bank and mend downstream to accelerate the fly out of a bank run, rather than stall it with a mend upstream. People have watched me do this and said what I was doing was wrong. I won a one-fly contest doing just this, so it pays to be wrong sometimes. If I was a baitfish in the wrong place at the wrong time, I think I'd get out of Dodge. Big trout are use to them reacting that way.
        I use rabbit, marabou, ostrich herl, rubber, schlappen, and various soft hackles to create movement, might as well figure ways to add more mechanically. And I agree with HT. With a few exceptions, the window closes sometime in mid to late Nov. and opens back up for the droppies. Thanks for the replies.
    #11
    hot tuna
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/25 18:58:26 (permalink)
    this is actually a great question and think it deserves some more discussion and learning, such as what Fichy just gave me..
    I say the window opens back up pre spawn, sometimes as early as late Feb if the sun is high and ticks that temp in some areas back up a few degs on the water in the afternoon..  I have had success with the streamer (SRS) if the winter starts to break up early and the steelhead start to spawn early.. I also think you (fichy) seen some chrome chasing baitfish in a warm feb day after a mild winter..
    While I didn't , don't strip my fly, rather just swung it, I don't see why stripping wouldn't be effective..
    Another reason for my march-april timing is largely due to the amount of salmon  fry in the river.. When Fran V says it's his #1 spring pattern from back in the late 80's-90's  while he was guiding, well guess what, I listened and bought his book about the Salmon River and patterns..
    I believe he also held (holds) the world record coho on 2# tippet, at least it was back then ..
    Finally a third element into this is that my Dad, the great one, didn't like using bait.. He liked casting spinners, spoons and lures for steelhead, he caught plenty from mid march-april while I struggled with egg sacs & flies (on spinning rod) ..  Of course some of his favorites were panther Martin single hook with beads on the lure shank before the hook, his spoons were blue fox pixie and little cleo, lures were of course rapala in rainbow trout..  
     
    Now granted, you fly guys can whip loops around me /cast and swing patterns FAR better then this old spinner so some things I may say are irrelevant to the knowledge you all possess.. The words you type and speak are ALL influential to me..

    "whats that smell like fish oh baby" .. J. Kaukonen
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    fichy
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/25 19:48:20 (permalink)
    Hardly, HT. You're one of my favorite fishing buddies of all time, because of your abilities to fish and to learn.  What you said about ripping the Rapalas made me smile. The guys on the coast with surfcasting rigs never get told a thing by me. Not that we don't share information, actually we share tons about fish movements, where they've been at what part of the tide, what bait we've been seeing etc.... They don't need to be told to rip them plugs!  I fish more like a spin guy with a fly rod. I'm happy I fit with the surf guys , just like I fit with guys fishing Rapalas down south for big browns and around here for same.  I LOVE to fly fish, it's a complete and total  passion, but I still think like the little kid with the spinning rod, hiding in the bank-side bushes watching fish, flipping over rocks, and hoping some day I'll get a little part of the mystery.  I've learned some about reading seams by watching pinners, learned a lot about the river in general and how aggressive steel can be riding in the front seat with 3 fan. Part of the reason for this thread is that experience.  Learn from whomever you can, wherever you can. Long as it's not some BS deal like 1/0 estaz.  Rain Wed. Should have some room!
    #13
    Lucky13
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/25 20:43:59 (permalink)
    pafisher
    Lucky13
    If I'm fishing a zonker, or a big intruder, I strip back once in a while as HT says to maybe wake them up.  But most of the time I'm fishing smaller wet flies, or concoctions designed to have some action on a dead drift and swing, so I just mends and swing.  Good article on this (active presentations) in the new Flyfisherman, though.


    According to that article you send your dog for a swim in the pool,that stirs them up and then they get interested in your strip retrieve,if you don't have a dog throwing rocks at them works too!Since my Boxer dog doesn't care for swimming I guess it's rocks for me


    Stoning, herding, driving are against the law in NYS.  I don't know about dog swimming !
    #14
    twobob
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/26 03:15:35 (permalink)
    I have a smallie stream that runs next to  the canal.
    It has a power house to run the locks that flows into it.
    Emeralds come thru it and get caught in the whirlpool getting hurt or confused.
    I outfish the bait fishers because I actively ripped my streamer.
    Dead drift or slow pulls get nothing but a foot long yank while popping the rod drives them crazy.
    Learned it from a bait flinging friend who was the master.
    I think it looks more like the baitfish than the live bait under a bobber or just bouncing along bottom.
     
    #15
    PerchEyes
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/26 07:42:22 (permalink)
    Hot Tuna, you're spot on in regards to SR pluggers "waking up" a pool. Always glad to have them plug the pool I'm fishing. Heck, even drift boats going by will get a couple active.
    PerchEyes
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    PerchEyes
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/26 07:47:26 (permalink)
    fichy, where do you striper fish?
    One of my favorite ways to spin fish stripers on Nantucket with a Bomber is to pull rod to side two feet, retrieve (lure pauses) and repeat. Similar motion to stripping a fly.
     
    #17
    fichy
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/26 08:08:09 (permalink)
    PE,The Ma. coast north of Beantown-  Cape Ann, and Plum Island Sound,  Use to fish South County RI, and have  chased them from Maine to the Chesapeake. Though, I've pretty much given up the surf stick, I'm no stranger to Bombers. Ever try a fly on the surf stick? Something I picked up in RI from one of the crazy people who fish the end of the breachways on the incoming is using a baseball with an eyelet bolted through it. About 4 feet of leader and a Rhody flatwing fly or any 5-7" salt pattern you like. Casts a mile and you rip it in pretty much as you described.  It doesn't hurt to keep a few small flies and have a surface plug with the rear hooks removed when they key on little bait, like smaller sand eels, peanut bunker and juvy herring.
    #18
    PerchEyes
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/26 17:43:51 (permalink)
    I had tried using a sand eel type fly as a dropper in front of a lure. Knew many that swore by that setup but didn't work well for me as the dropper would eventually wrap around the main line. Also did some fly fishing for stripers but was tough in heavy surf and wind, Was pretty successful for albies when conditions were right. Pretty exciting to get an albie to smack it and take 100 ft of flyline out of the basket in a blink of the eye.
    #19
    fichy
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/26 18:31:34 (permalink)
    I rarely get shots at albies, not much shore action for them north,  better off the islands. Need to get to Nantucket and the Vineyard someday. Have got them from a boat. I have got a bonita from shore.  I decide to go, I'll be asking some questions. If you try throwing a fly behind a plug again, try a clouser. The weight and pretty sparse materials (good for a sand eel imitation) make it follow the lure out and behave, as they don't have as much wind resistance and some weight to help them fly on their own.
    post edited by fichy - 2015/10/26 18:36:41
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    PerchEyes
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/27 07:31:49 (permalink)
    Fichy, Nantucket surf fishing has a big problem right now: seals!
    Last year's fall trip was totally a bust because of them (and the torrential rains didn't help either). Don't know if late spring (June) is any better in that regards as haven't been out there at that time in 4-5 years. Those fkers would follow the truck up the beach! Couldn't catch more than 1 fish before they found you and would steal everyone thereafter. Next time I pack the 30-06 or some m-80s.
    Anyways, when you are ready to go I could pass along some tips.
    #21
    fichy
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/27 10:08:08 (permalink)
    I've had some horrible experiences with horseheads and greys. The mouth of the Merrimack gets loaded with them, they f'in ruined an early May trip for me, and have scared the sheet out of me night fishing. The most frustrating for me may have been at the mouth of the Saco and Scarborough rivers in Maine. I had gone out on a minus tide at least a 1/4 mile out on the mud  flats to reach what i figured would be a great concentration of fish in the channel. i got out there, made one cast and hooked up on a good fish. I got it taken care of, looked up to find the  area now  dotted with evil little seal heads.  Long walk for one fish and done. I don't mind the sharks coming in closer. Let 'em eat! 
    #22
    dimebrite2
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/27 12:04:09 (permalink)
    Have had much success on strip in strikes. Green machines or smurfs tied with either spun deer hair or chennille (chenille better for cold months) and white calf tail... Nymphs and wets on either mid drift or straight down stream retrieval... And yes... Even the infamous estaz... And yes even in black!!!

    Not a dumb question at all. Any DEC officer in their right mind will no your intent if you're stripping in
    #23
    fichy
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/27 12:32:09 (permalink)
    I thought a little about it and have come to a partial  conclusion why I've seen no one doing it. If you have a bunch of weight on to dead drift, you increase your chances of hanging up  markedly by lowering the rod tip and stripping. That knocks about 80-90 percent out of the box, right there. In defense of some, eggs and flesh don't swim or twitch. Others are swinging and getting movement via the swing and feel the extra movement isn't needed or wanted.  5% to cover that group? The other 5-10% has never seen anyone else do it so it must be wrong. I guess I fall in that category. 
    #24
    uglyfish
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/27 12:45:38 (permalink)
    Might have to pull out a deceiver tomorrow and strip away. 😀
    #25
    dimebrite2
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    Re: dumb question 2015/10/27 13:38:59 (permalink)
    Fichy, give it some time... Now that its mentioned on the internet, give it about 3 years and its all anyone will be doing and talking about :)
    #26
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