KJH807
So...
"accepting" the brokered lease for exclusive fishing rights is somehow more noble than directly leasing the property?
 
BULLSHlT
 
If anything it is worse
it shows the acceptance of a system where leases to private access will be brokered/auctioned off to the highest bidder.  

Exactly. 
 
And if they don't do it their competition will, in their logic.  She asks "what would you do?".  I would turn it down & tell whoever brought the idea to me to get out of my store.

Steve here from Ultimate Angler.  Just found out about the posting yesterday night, and I am sickened by it.  It is a tremendous loss to the fishery.  We are mentioned in the post concerning the lease, and I just wanted to comment and say that this is the first we have heard of it.  If offered a pay to play option, we would not accept.  We do fish on water that is private, but we are not there to play policeman, and have never kicked anyone off of the areas that we fish.  We are also there at the invitation of the land owner, not as a part of a lease agreement.  
As a shop owner, I am concerned with the lack of public water as it is.  Sure, guiding is a big part of our business, but it is nothing when compared to the local and visiting anglers that come in to the shop.  With less and less open water to fish, less fish making it into the upper stretches of Walnut, and other local problems, we will do less business overall.  The greatest thing that could happen to us as a shop would be to see all the water open for public fishing.  
I am also concerned that at some point, the fish and boat will stop stocking fish.  At what point will they say too much water is posted, and it is no longer worthwhile.  We all know what this fishery means to the local economy, especially shops.  Without this fishery, many of us will be gone very quickly.  I only know what I have heard from forums and people coming in the shop, so I am sure I don't have all the facts yet, but know that I am concerned as anyone about this, and hope that there can be some resolution to this problem at some point soon.  
Thanks, tight lines, and happy fishing
-Steve B

Any "real" land owners out here? Not a lot or even an acre anyone who actually owns land? I'd like to see how many LAND OWNERS want random people trudging all over the land they pay for and care for?
 
Those of you who don't own land but rather a lot, would you be okay if someone came and picked your pretty little flowers???? Stepped on your lawn??? Threw trash in your yard??

ladyoflakeerie
Really.......this is very disturbing to me on so many levels....I'm sure some of you on this very forum are guides...and I am sure that before you take your "clients" out for a day on the creeks you know exactly which part of the creek has been "leased" if you will, from the PFBC through their public access fishing program.....ok....with that said, have you ever considered that the clients that you are guiding, which pay you for your service (by the way some may interpret this as profiting from the fish placed in our streams that are paid for by the licenses that WE purchase and the trout salmon/lake erie permit)...that if you decide to take this client to privately owned land, have you ever once considered contacting the owner of the land to ask for permission to fish there...with your client who is paying you for your time and know how???? Maybe you instead sent the landowner a thank you note or a fruit basket...well did you???? What you are all failing to recognize with your grandiose ideas of the wrongs that have been bestowed upon you is this....."its a free country, where citizens are able to own and manage their land any way they see fit"...even if it rubs you the wrong way....and no they shouldn't have to move somewhere else to live just because they are tired of people profiting from the use of their land with no consideration to them at all?? Most of us in the area that you are referring to on Elk Creek were born and raised there...we have raised our own kids there....we have taught them to appreciate the true beauty of the land and water and to never take it for granted....there are many reasons why one would love to live and enjoy this property.....so if the land owner wants to post this property for any reason....even if the landowner wants to have a little extra money to off set the cost of the property taxes so what.......Make it right people....quit crucifying the owner...

Only one person here crucified a landowner, and was told they were being ridiculous by several.
 
Everyone also is free to patronize whichever fishing tackle shops they see fit.  And if one is doing something they don't like, they are free to spend their money elsewhere.

Also would said land owner have prime steel head fishing if it were not for many buying Erie and trout stamps to pay for such a great fishery? If streams are locked out for the average Joe, they stop coming and thus no stocking needed. 

Who said $80???? All I'm saying is if I wanted prime fishing/hunting? Then I'd have no problem paying the land owner/broker/whomever.... Where I come from if you want to use someones land there's always a trade off... Money? Equipment? Help? It's not cheap nor easy to own and care for land.
 
As I understand the situation it's never been public. This man or his family have owned the land for years. The public took it upon themselves to hop fences, cross land, jump streams to get to these holes with no permission. Sometimes there's a breaking point. I can only imagine the trash that's left behind, the line that gets caught up in trees and whatever else. If you're disrespectful enough to enter onto someones property with no permission I'd make a bet you could care less about the mess you leave. Look at walnut or any of the other accesses. What about the fact that this man can't enjoy his land because there are random people all over it. He can't go camping near the creek, his kids can't play in it (if he has any), his animals cant run free. All i know is it seems quite easy to many to just walk onto a place that's not theirs and call it "unfair" when someone says "hey nope, sorry it's mine and I'm taking it back" Props to this man and whomever else who stands up for theirs!!! My property is posted and if you step foot on it you'll be prosecuted to the fullest of the law. You wanna have rights to it then come talk to me and we'll see what happens

you wont know

D-nymph

ladyoflakeerie
Really.......this is very disturbing to me on so many levels....I'm sure some of you on this very forum are guides...and I am sure that before you take your "clients" out for a day on the creeks you know exactly which part of the creek has been "leased" if you will, from the PFBC through their public access fishing program.....ok....with that said, have you ever considered that the clients that you are guiding, which pay you for your service (by the way some may interpret this as profiting from the fish placed in our streams that are paid for by the licenses that WE purchase and the trout salmon/lake erie permit)...that if you decide to take this client to privately owned land, have you ever once considered contacting the owner of the land to ask for permission to fish there...with your client who is paying you for your time and know how???? Maybe you instead sent the landowner a thank you note or a fruit basket...well did you???? What you are all failing to recognize with your grandiose ideas of the wrongs that have been bestowed upon you is this....."its a free country, where citizens are able to own and manage their land any way they see fit"...even if it rubs you the wrong way....and no they shouldn't have to move somewhere else to live just because they are tired of people profiting from the use of their land with no consideration to them at all?? Most of us in the area that you are referring to on Elk Creek were born and raised there...we have raised our own kids there....we have taught them to appreciate the true beauty of the land and water and to never take it for granted....there are many reasons why one would love to live and enjoy this property.....so if the land owner wants to post this property for any reason....even if the landowner wants to have a little extra money to off set the cost of the property taxes so what.......Make it right people....quit crucifying the owner...

Only one person here crucified a landowner, and was told they were being ridiculous by several.
 
Everyone also is free to patronize whichever fishing tackle shops they see fit.  And if one is doing something they don't like, they are free to spend their money elsewhere.

for one restricting water for profit
 
So this tackle shop or any shop for that matter was wrong to attempt to satisfy a land owner who has "amazing fishing holes" and fishermen by attempting a lease agreement? Whether it was from the landowner himself or a broker????
 
I'm sorry I'm confused? Id think that everyone would be happy to know they could go into a shop and pay a reasonable fee to fish in the best holes around... It would be like Elk hunting out west! You pay a guide to get you to the best places... They pay land owners for their land!

SO LET ME GET THIS RIGHT,YOU WONT KNOW,,,,u feel its ok for a landowner,broker ,bait shop guide to charge a fee for profit off of fish that is rightfully paid for by all anglers who buy license and erie permit,and restricted from fishing for them on same body of water,,,u are wrong,,, as for landowner,charge a parking or usage fee,for public access,this would eliminate most litter problems,but would also keep waterways open for fishing,as for guides, most i kno dont need private water to do their job,they are that good,,,, as for bait shops,well like mentioned above,its my right to honor who i like with my business,poor richards has my vote,,, with this said,the PFBC NEEDS TO SEE WERE THEY ARE GOIN ON THIS,,,be ashame to see a great fisherie of this caliber to disapear,a big economic blow to erie,,maybe even higher property tax on landowners because of this blowout

Double the price of the Trib stamps so the PFBC can offer better easement rates..
 
Have no problem with a landowner doing what he wants on his own land... His land he pays for it.
Using that same logic we as fishermen pay for those fish and they should not be exploited by private leases for profit.
 
How many miles of Elk is posted now ??? Anybody?? Bueller, Bueller ??
8.5 miles......

Esox_Hunter

ladyoflakeerie
.......Make it right people....quit crucifying the owner...

You can try to justify exploiting a resource funded by all fisherman for the benefit of a few individuals all you like, but the fact remains that your shop (or you won't know's) is toast. 

 
 
Just for the record. I have nothing to do with anyone. Just a by stander to a conversation today and was irritated so I checked this site out. Added a username so that I could comment. I'm sorry I didn't fill out my info. It's there now. As a land owner, going up on a farm, I was sympathetic to this land owner. On our farm its not fish its deer, small game, turkey, whatever the season may be. Sometimes instead of being quick to jump the gate about the land owner and him making a "profit" (which is highly unlikely) ya'll need to step back and see the big picture. These may be amazing fishing holes ( i have no idea, i don't even know how to get to Elk Creek) but they're on someones private property. yes, in the past he's been okay with people just entering and taking advantage. Well maybe this year he's had enough. Enough garbage, enough noise, enough not being able to utilize his land because of people who don't respect him enough to even clean up after their selves. So instead of being all fired up about the situation (which I know I was) lets sit back and see if there's not a reasonable solution to fit everyone's needs.

I have fished the waters below the Conrail tubes for over 50 years and when my brother told me he was asked to leave on Tuesday I could not believe it. It kicked me in the stomach and then I got angry and emotional. The problem is when you are in this state you probably should not make any judgments or decisions but as is usual and stupid on my part I lashed out at the tackle shop in question immediately without thinking and knowing the facts. I also lashed out at the PFBC believing they had not done their job.
 
So today I eat crow and in a more clear state of mind, I went to work looking for the truth. It seems the shop in question is actually innocent of what I thought and also read from various sources. I will not go into details but I have vetted this vigorously. They were approached and asked if they wanted to guide on the water. No Strings and no compensation to anyone. Knowing it was now closed it was reasonable to consider the offer. In retrospect they probably would not even have considered it knowing how we would all react. But if we were offered the same deal knowing what they new we would all probably have jumped on it.
 
The reason the land was posted is based on a couple of instances experienced by the landowner. First, he had a couple of unpleasant encounters with steelhead fishermen on his own property. This set the stage for combustion to eventually occur. What started the fire and ultimate posting of the property was the landowner was apparently recently cited for a trespassing violation by parking his car, along with a couple of friends, on the adjacent property which is posted. According to my reliable first hand source the owner had a hand shake agreement with the nursery owner to access his land through their property.  From what I gather the land in question is landlocked or quasi inaccessible.  All landowners have a right to access their property whether landlocked or not.  The party responsible for the citation was the Pennsylvania Game Commission, not Fish and Boat, and it apparently went to court. The fines ended up standing and were around $180 for each person. This broke the back of the property owner and triggered the posting, so the story goes.  If this is correct it is actually shameful. Not that anyone is above the law but it seems common sense and law enforcement discretion was not applied. This is what I was told anyway. None-the-less I can’t blame the landowner.
 
To that point, we need to respect all private property and if the landowner posts their property respect it. We would all expect the same.
 
As for the trashing of the shop I personally picked up the phone and swallowed my pride and offered a huge apology. My email was not nice or accurate and I am sure I caused a sleepless night.
 
As fishermen we all need to be aware of the truth and I think we need to quit bashing this business. They have families and bills to pay just like we do. We are stronger as a group if we conduct ourselves as sportsmen and stick together. Maybe the landowner can be approached again by the PFBC and an adequate deal put together that satisfies everyone. If not I still personally will respect the landowner. 

H3Fisher-
When you want to move to another beat on the water because you're not catching fish, how is that going to be accomplished? You better hope your $20 got you a good spot w/ a good drift and willing fish. Don't think you're
moving anywhere near that guy on the next hole that's slammin' 'em. It ain't happenin', 'cause his $20 got him that honey hole.
If all this is true concerning Trout Run B&T, they better have a Plan B, C and D in place because jobs are hard to find these days.
You reap what you sow and that's some bad juju they be sowin'.
 

Thanks to D-Nymph, Esox Hunter and Rsquared that responded, much appreciated! I wrote inaccurately ["under the impression"]. It should be I was informed as a number of people [all fishermen] have said it to me in the past. No offense taken to anyone's post. My clarification was not written for any reason other than to signify the amount of people that were informed wrongly as the statement was likely repeated to many other fishermen. There were numerous good comments on this thread posted by many, too numerous to list each. Some intentionally funny ones, some things posted in a question form to promote further thought and different POV's that were well written.

I actually may not Steelhead fish anymore. Its fishing, not politics, or for profit really. I grew up in Venango County and I could fish almost every stretch of water anywhere in the County. I'm thinking pellet heads and Small Mouth are the way to go. Less BS.
 
Steel are fun to catch, I love it, but hate the BS more than I like the fun of it.
 
Count me out. One less for anyone to complain about.

I would pay to fish this stretch of water.  I pay to fish the Douglaston Salmon Run every year and it's now $50 a day.  It's worth every penny to avoid the hordes in the public areas....I will come to Erie to fish private water.