Dr. Trout
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/17 19:57:17
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More than one shooting death every hundred years
That is not my point... I'm more concerned with all the so called "hunters" out there doing harm to other hunters, killing other hunters, upsetting property owners, breaking game code , and other actions giving our sport a black eye as mome and more of those type people and events are making it into the media yearly...
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/11/17 20:06:43
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S-10
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/17 20:03:11
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a policeman does not encounter a loaded weapon on 99% of their calls or stops or when questioning someone... If you look at a WCO's job description only a relatively small portion is supposed to be law enforcement related. Many of his duties have nothing to do with guns. Your exagerating more than RSB on that one.
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S-10
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/17 20:07:36
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quote:
More than one shooting death every hundred years
That is not my point...
I'm more concerned with all the so called "hunters" out there doing harm to other hunters, killing other hunters, property owners, breaking game code , and other actions giving our sport a black eye as mome and more of those type people and events are making it into the media yearly...
_____________________________
That has nothing to do with the danger of being a WCO and even less to do with the topic of why are they using a tragic death to attempt to obtain more money to give themselves a additional benefit rather than spend it on things that will make the job safer
post edited by S-10 - 2011/11/17 20:22:17
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Dr. Trout
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/17 20:23:44
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If you look at a WCO's job description only a relatively small portion is supposed to be law enforcement related The point is that when a WCO has a personal encounter with a hunter.. be it law enforcement or just talking or checking them out.. the guy has a loaded weapon.. and there is a certain amount of danger present.... that is not the case with other LEOs when they approach another person for law enforcement, just to talk or what ever folks that think a person holding a weapon does not present any danger are the ones probably getting shot....  Remember == it's not the gun itself === it's the person with the gun ..... for example === If a hunter approaches and says I am not where I am supposed to be and is holding a gun I am going to be the last person on earth to stand there and start any sort of argument... I'm off to hunt another day .... If you want to stand there and challenge him .. have at it... but if you get shot don't look to me for sympathy.. I'll just think it was that there are no bad guys out there attitude that did you in  ... Regardless of the "job description" I think you would be amazed at just how much time is involved in law enforcement... as for job descriptions.. you should read half of the ones I have had in my life .. the job I was actually doing at the time and that job description were rarely even related to each other ..
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/11/17 20:24:55
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/17 20:25:59
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S-10
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/17 20:31:27
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The facts say the job is relatively safe when compared with all jobs held by Americans.
The facts show that there are over fifty applicants for evey job opening
The facts show that there is no need for an additional benefit to obtain qualified canidates for the job
Everything else is just old fashioned B.S.
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/17 20:31:29
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I wouldn't be afraid to say that most of the people you sell license to don't have a concealed weapon on them. Now does this entitle you as to having a high risk job ? You treat them right you have nothing to worry about.
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S-10
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/17 20:36:47
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p 10 dangerous jobs
The occupations with the highest fatality rates in 2006.
Occupation Deaths per 100,000 workers
Fishermen 141.7
Pilots 87.8
Loggers 82.3
Structural iron and steel workers 61.0
Refuse collectors 41.8
Farmers and ranchers 37.1
Power linemen 34.9
Roofers 33.9
Drivers 27.1
Agricultural workers 21.7
Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics
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Dr. Trout
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/17 20:39:59
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Dr. Trout
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/17 20:43:18
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Occupation Deaths per 100,000 workers oppppppppsssss .. did you miss this ???? how many WCOs do we have in Pa ... how could anyone expcect a PGC WCO to show up on a list like that ....  ???? hey think what you want.. I'm still believing there is some danger in being a PA WCO.. especially with some of the folks calling themselves hunters in the woods today.... I'm done on this one...
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S-10
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/17 20:55:50
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oppppppppsssss .. did you miss this ???? Nope, I didn't miss it but I know how to do the math---do you
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draketrutta 
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/17 21:03:49
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retired guy
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/17 21:23:08
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Hey Drake- reminds me of those folks up in that Altmar bar this fall- while I had my first and last lunch there- the folks at the bar were all talking bout how at one point or another in their lives they had all eaten a cat.
Hey- its kinda predictable and morbidly humorous to notice that most of the folks who never have anything good to say bout WCO's are the ones with the negative attitudes on this post too. .
Never gonna change their mind so -time to move on---only now some will try and get on and say how they really dont have inherent negative attitudes. Too late- your busted
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Dr. Trout
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/17 21:24:27
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just trying to make a point, not trying to impress anyone... I am totally aware of the dangers in today's world and realize there are "crazies" out there...
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/17 22:01:12
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ORIGINAL: retired guy
Hey Drake- reminds me of those folks up in that Altmar bar this fall- while I had my first and last lunch there- the folks at the bar were all talking bout how at one point or another in their lives they had all eaten a cat.
  Hey- its kinda predictable and morbidly humorous to notice that most of the folks who never have anything good to say bout WCO's are the ones with the negative attitudes on this post too. .
Never gonna change their mind so -time to move on---only now some will try and get on and say how they really dont have inherent negative attitudes. Too late- your busted
I don't know who you are referring to but I do have a negative attitude toward some WCO's and DWCO alike. It's the attitude they gave me and until I see change I will probably always carry it with me. On the other hand other WCO's have been helpful and have shown me respect as I have to them.Never once have I said "all" are bad it's just ashame the the ones that tarnish the PGC's image are permitted to continue to do so. No differn't than bad COPS !
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S-10
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 05:33:59
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Retired Guy Quote-Hey- its kinda predictable and morbidly humorous to notice that most of the folks who never have anything good to say bout WCO's are the ones with the negative attitudes on this post too. .
RG-- really didn't expect you to fall into the trap of calling folks who point out the facts as being negative just because the facts don't show what you would like them to.
You also need to read the posts again and look at those posting-----The only three posters supporting spending money enhancing the retirement package rather than spending it on improving officer safety are you, Doc, and RSB. The last two we would expect to be stuck together like glue.
Some might call using the death of a fellow officer to push for a 20 year and age 50 early retirement package rather than just options to improve the safety of the working officers as a negative on the PGC's part.
I think I've said all I want on this issue.
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draketrutta
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 06:18:21
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ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures
I do have a negative attitude toward some WCO's and DWCO alike. It's the attitude they gave me and until I see change I will probably always carry it with me. On the other hand other WCO's have been helpful and have shown me respect as I have to them.Never once have I said "all" are bad it's just ashame the the ones that tarnish the PGC's image are permitted to continue to do so. No differn't than bad COPS !
Since this guy reflects my feelings, I used his quote. My bad feelings are based on first-hand face-to-face negative encounters when I tried to help them bust low-life deer poachers. No more assistance will be offered by this Joe Citizen Hunter, and I made sure to let the Officer and his Supervisors know it.
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DarDys
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 08:29:58
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
Occupation Deaths per 100,000 workers
oppppppppsssss .. did you miss this ????
how many WCOs do we have in Pa ... how could anyone expcect a PGC WCO to show up on a list like that .... ????
hey think what you want.. I'm still believing there is some danger in being a PA WCO.. especially with some of the folks calling themselves hunters in the woods today....
I'm done on this one...
Your math skills are showing again. Or should I write, lack of math skills? When compiling statistics, there needs to be a normalization factor in order to make apples to apples comparisons between vastly differing population sizes. In the case of this statistic, it is normalized to how many occurrances per 100,000 possible workers. Here is how it works in round numbers. If the number of particpants is greater that 100,000 as in there are 500,000 fire fighters and 500 die in the line of duty, to get to occurances per 100,000 the 500 is divided by 5 -- since the number of firefighters is 5 times the 100,000 normalization rate. So the deaths per 100,000 would be reported as 100 per 100,000. If the number of particpants is less than 100,000, then the 100,000 is divided by the number of workers and the number of deaths is multiplied by that resultant in order to normalize it at the occurrances per 100,000 figure. But back ot the topic at hand. We can all agree that the Grove shooting was a tragedy. But answer this question, although it may seem calous in nature -- Would WCO Grove not have been killed had he been able to retire at age 50 with 20 years of service or would that not have made any difference whatsoever? The article wants you to beleive that it would have. Do you?
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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DarDys
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 08:47:20
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Doc, You encounter people in the woods with firearms all the time. Are you afraid that each and every one of them has an intent on harming you? That's what your argument says, whether you want to believe it or not. My B-I-L retired last year from the Department of Justice. He served in some of the worst prisons throughout the country super max, criminally insane, Texas death row, etc. His work was located daily within arms reach of some of the worst and most violent criminals in the country. Do you think he encountered more people -- known violent criminals, not those engaged in recreation -- that wanted to do him harm than most WCO's do? Pay close attention to the question -- not armed with a gun because not every hunter armed with a gun wants to do harm to a WCO, but people who want to do him harm because there are no consequences to them -- they are already on death row or in prison for life without possibiility of parol or insane-- homemade shive; belt, wire; tools (for those trusted to work in the shops); possible HIV laden feces, urine, or spit thrown at him; physical size difference; etc. In other words, who, on a daily basis worked in a more dangerous environment? He was a computer geek and his last job was auditing prison computer systems around the country. This actually made him a bigger target because he wasn't from that prison, was not a trained guard, and could not make their life any worse because he was there for less than a week. Yet, because he carried a title at one time of Deputy Warden 915 years ago), he had to carry a handgun (more correctly had to have one in his desk -- firearms were not permitted anywhere other than the guard towers otherwise); qualify with it every year; had to respond to prison disturbances (as incident command, not front line); but was considered a LE (says so on his retirement shield). LE was such a small part of his job description that most of his 25 years, the closest he came was quailifying -- which was the only time he fired his weapon -- not a shooter or a hunter. But, because he was LE for the DOJ, he was eligible for 20/50. He retired the day after he turned 50 (with 25 years) and the cost to taxpayers for his pension and post retirement healthcare will fall (depending on healthcare costs) somewhere between $1.5 and $2 million dollars -- all the while paying the guy that replaced him. And with today's life expectancies, it may very well be possible that the taxpayers will also be paying for his retirement and healthcare while also paying for his replacement's retirement and post retirement healthcare, plus paying for the guy that replaced his replacement.
post edited by DarDys - 2011/11/18 08:51:42
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 08:58:43
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I support 20 year 50 out for prison guards.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 09:22:55
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Post #69 ===  I'm done on this one
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/11/18 09:23:13
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DarDys
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 10:35:31
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ORIGINAL: Outdoor Adventures
I support 20 year 50 out for prison guards.
He wasn't a guard, but an IT guy, but because he was classified as LE, 20/50 applied.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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DarDys
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 10:37:12
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
Post #69 ===
I'm done on this one
When the going gets tough the tough answer the tough questions. Those that can't answer them run away. In case you decide to come back, I ask it again: Would WCO Grove be alive today if the PGC had 20/50? If the answer is no, then the two have noting to do with each other and the PGC or the union is just pandering to sentitment of a true tragedy to try to better their employment benefits. And that is heinous. They should be ashamed. I'll also ask it again: Are you afraid for your life every time you meet another in the woods because they are armed?
post edited by DarDys - 2011/11/18 10:39:58
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 11:20:07
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Are you afraid for your life every time you meet another in the woods because they are armed?
well if you are going insist and throw insults if I do not answer .. here goes... Afraid for my life.. I never said I was.. But I am on constant alert ... I realize one stupid mistake by the other person and I could get hurt.. where is the gun pointing... do that even act like they know what they are doing..or are they just out here trying to kill something... EXAMPLE and I see/encounter this every year at least once... I know that guy saw me here.. I even waved at him ... why is he still sitting or standing 75 yards away in front of me ??? If a deer runs between us will he shoot at it... I know I won't ... so why is he still there.. if he will not shoot then neither of us going to get that deer if that happens... how dumb is he ??? CAUTIOUS and AWARE and ON ALERT.. yep that's me when I see another hunter in the woods.... now in your vast knowledge of definitions and really digging into things if you consider that "afraid for one's life" .. so be it ... I'd not be able to explain it to you why I see a difference.... and keep in mind I'm 95% on SGL hunting or State Forest hunting.. so I see a different "crowd" than the private property hunters.... MY FAVORITE...... After waving at a guy two years ago I watched as he raised his rifle and looked thru the scope pointing it directly at me.. to see who I was I guess ????? 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/11/18 11:21:46
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Dr. Trout
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 11:43:13
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Before I get jumped for being anti hunting or anti guns..
let me clearly state... I am not !!!
I just express my opinions like all of us do and unfortunately I see more of the slobs and lawbreaker's than evidently most that DO POST here see.. that does not make me wrong or paranoid... it is what it is in MY experiences on public land...
I fully recognized the ARSES out there with guns are in the minority.. but I am not for one minute going to pretend they do not exist and I keep myself prepared in case one shows up... it would only take one mistake by one of them and I could have my life ended or changed forever...
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RSB
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 19:59:02
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p 10 dangerous jobs
The occupations with the highest fatality rates in 2006.
Occupation Deaths per 100,000 workers
Fishermen 141.7 – generally killed by mistakes they or fellow workers made
Pilots 87.8 – killed because of equipment failures or mistakes they made
Loggers 82.3 – generally killed mistakes they made
Structural iron and steel workers 61.0 – generally killed by mistakes they and follow workers made
Refuse collectors 41.8 - generally killed by mistakes they and follow workers made
Farmers and ranchers 37.1 – generally killed by mistakes they made
Power linemen 34.9 - generally killed by mistakes they made
Roofers 33.9 - generally killed by mistakes they made
Drivers 27.1 – frequently killed by mistakes they made though certainly can be the fault of others
Agricultural workers 21.7 - generally killed by mistakes they made
Though in the line of duty law enforcement deaths can be from mistakes the officer made it is most commonly the unavoidable actions of a criminal that cause Officer deaths. That makes it much different than someone dying because of their own mistakes or carelessness.
R.S. Bodenhorn
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Dr. Trout
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 20:15:52
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excellent point !!!!! 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/11/18 20:16:24
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dpms
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 20:21:22
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ORIGINAL: RSB
p 10 dangerous jobs
The occupations with the highest fatality rates in 2006.
Occupation Deaths per 100,000 workers
Fishermen 141.7 – generally killed by mistakes they or fellow workers made
Pilots 87.8 – killed because of equipment failures or mistakes they made
Loggers 82.3 – generally killed mistakes they made
Structural iron and steel workers 61.0 – generally killed by mistakes they and follow workers made
Refuse collectors 41.8 - generally killed by mistakes they and follow workers made
Farmers and ranchers 37.1 – generally killed by mistakes they made
Power linemen 34.9 - generally killed by mistakes they made
Roofers 33.9 - generally killed by mistakes they made
Drivers 27.1 – frequently killed by mistakes they made though certainly can be the fault of others
Agricultural workers 21.7 - generally killed by mistakes they made
Though in the line of duty law enforcement deaths can be from mistakes the officer made it is most commonly the unavoidable actions of a criminal that cause Officer deaths. That makes it much different than someone dying because of their own mistakes or carelessness.
R.S. Bodenhorn
Not sure that it matters how the death occured, respectfully. The death was on the job and directly related to the job and the risks associated with it. I would imagine that some of the deaths of officers were directly related to a mistake on their part as well giving the assailant the upper hand. As I said before, I support equipping LE with the best tools available. It is a potentially dangerous job. With that said, not sure how that fact entitles LE personel to early retirement and benefit packages not in line with the private sector where equally dangerous and demanding jobs exist.
post edited by dpms - 2011/11/18 20:33:50
My rifle is a black rifle
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RSB
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 20:25:29
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ORIGINAL: draketrutta
ORIGINAL: RSB
You have obviously never had someone shooting at you with their deer rifle while you hid behind what ever cover you can find for an hour or more waiting for PSP to arrive with a rifle capable of effectively returning fire.
No I haven't.
Have you?
If so, kindly post up the date/location of the incident, or better yet, post up a link -because I am sure it made the news.
I await your response.
No I have never been pinned down with rifle fire but I have been dispatched and responded to assist other WCOs who where pinned down with rifle fire from big game hunters. Neither the pinned down officers or any of the responding WCOs had an issued rifle to return fire when they got on scene. So far it has always worked out that we didn’t need a rifle to save lives but that doesn’t mean it will always work out that someone isn’t killed because a rifle wasn’t available. Just last year we had WCOs being fired upon by a hunter with a rifle during the first day of the deer season. I have always advocated, when it came to firearms and other life saving equipment, that it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. That is also why I wear a vest when I am in uniform. It is why a have a water safety throw rope directly behind my seat and almost instantly available. It is why I have a fire extinguisher and first-aid kit where they are instantly and easily accessible. But using the line of thinking some of you have we probably shouldn’t have ballistic vests or any of that other equipment either, right? After all they cost money to provide for officer and public safety too, and I either never or hardly ever need or use them either. And, just because you don’t hear about events WCOs get involved in doesn’t mean they aren’t accruing. R.S. Bodenhorn
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RSB
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 20:41:26
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ORIGINAL: dpms
ORIGINAL: RSB
p 10 dangerous jobs
The occupations with the highest fatality rates in 2006.
Occupation Deaths per 100,000 workers
Fishermen 141.7 – generally killed by mistakes they or fellow workers made
Pilots 87.8 – killed because of equipment failures or mistakes they made
Loggers 82.3 – generally killed mistakes they made
Structural iron and steel workers 61.0 – generally killed by mistakes they and follow workers made
Refuse collectors 41.8 - generally killed by mistakes they and follow workers made
Farmers and ranchers 37.1 – generally killed by mistakes they made
Power linemen 34.9 - generally killed by mistakes they made
Roofers 33.9 - generally killed by mistakes they made
Drivers 27.1 – frequently killed by mistakes they made though certainly can be the fault of others
Agricultural workers 21.7 - generally killed by mistakes they made
Though in the line of duty law enforcement deaths can be from mistakes the officer made it is most commonly the unavoidable actions of a criminal that cause Officer deaths. That makes it much different than someone dying because of their own mistakes or carelessness.
R.S. Bodenhorn
Not sure that it matters how the death occured, respectfully. The death was on the job and directly related to the job and the risks associated with it. I would imagine that some of the deaths of officers were directly related to a mistake on their part as well giving the assailant the upper hand.
As I said before, I support equipping LE with the best tools available. It is a potentially dangerous job. With that said, not sure how that fact entitles LE personel to early retirement and benefit packages not in line with the private sector where equally dangerous and demanding jobs exist.
You would understand if you were in your 50’s or 60’s and still doing law enforcement. Anyone in their 50’s or 60’s who thinks they have any type of edge in law enforcement is only fooling themselves. Even the most physically fit officers are not as physically able to survive a life and death physically assault as their 20 – 30 year old assailants. That is also why solders are retired out long before they reach 50 years old. It is real easy for those that have never been solders or law enforcement officers not to understand the reasons they can’t do it at older ages without becoming a liability to no only themselves but also to those around them when it turns into a life and death battle. But, as I said before most officers probably aren’t going to retire out at 50 year old. But, it is a good thing for those that really longer want to be in law enforcement but can’t leave because they have no other logical or livable employment options. do we really want officers out there on the job who are only there because they don’t really have any other choice? R.S. Bodenhorn
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