Esox_Hunter
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 18:31:59
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As if there is some reason that is necessary. If i relax any further than i am at this moment, my fingers won't work on the keypad, and im liable to have an involunatary bowel movement. lmao. I simply answered a reply to a quote of my post. I dont mind....really. Nothing wrong with discussing an issue, even a controversial topic. Even if the post containing a quote from my post wasmt directed to me (lol), it was open question for anyone correct? Well im included in "anyone" too.  
Yep, it was open ended question for anyone and I suppose I will include you in the "anyone" group I guess my real point is that there are other states which IMO are very similar to PA in demographics and hunting tradition; so why not steal some of their recorded data pertaining to SH and see what issues arose in other states? As it stands now, both sides are providing lots of speculative information to support their arguments. It just seems to me that there must be some good data from states who have recently entered the realm of SH and that data could be very useful to PA.
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IDC
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 18:42:55
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Lets just change no Sunday hunting to no Wednesday hunting. Land owners that don't want Sunday hunting still doesn't have to allowed it. The hikers and bird watchers ect... can do it on Wednesdays. Lets switch every other year.
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wayne c
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 18:48:47
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Yep, it was open ended question for anyone and I suppose I will include you in the "anyone" group Gee tanx!  I would agree that it would be beneficial to look at certain aspects of sunday hunting implementation within other states... Only problem i would have is attempting to not take all factors and differences into account. Comparing everything at face value would be a huge mistake imho. I do believe some issues could be noted, such as landowners reactions after implementation etc.. Although I am not aware of any in depth study, usually just some unsupported statements thrown around like "Ohio didnt post all its land when they got sunday hunting". Yet at the same time, noone knows all the reasons why Ohio has so much posted land, and noone can prove hunting every day of the week played no role at all.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 18:50:13
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not a matter of any brain washing... I voted no because of the possible posted land.. other voted with me because they know farmers that will post most of the others were against killing more deer... they get theirs but with an extra day others may get one too thus reducing the population and thus their chances for the next year.. yep = greedy... our members are just about split on the "deer wars" topics in general Those that are happy with it now do not want to see much increase in harvest..except for BUCKS... there were no entries of those joining the buck pool last year.. ZERO bucks Killed (harvested) but there was a lot of talk about folks seeing more and "nice bucks" running around this year and are excited about the upcoming season. Our club is very small we have 150 active members.. lots of social members that do not vote on club matters because 90% of them are hunters and campers and are not up here in the middle of the week..and do not attend meetings... plus we are in a "dry township" (i.e. NO BAR) so although the members we do have are really sportsmen and help in activities... the rest use the clubhouse as more of a hang-out when they are at camp... our usual turn-out for any meeting is about 30... turkey shoots, muzzie shoots, coyote hunt, kid's events,etc are different... I have always said WED. nite is not a great night for a meeting -- many can not attend... I only joined 6 years ago because of work schedule and could not attend meetings before I "retired"... We filled the clubhouse when RSB and the local WCO came and gave different presentations. Had a HUGE crowd of kids when the local WCO came with bluebird boxes for the kids to build... If I post I am going to "run" a video we get about 50 people... I will confess that some may not have come because they knew we were votingg on the Sunday issue for the PFSC and it was all I could do to keep us a member last year... and I am not sure the membership will want to re-join this year... Akita... our club would (for sure) support NO Sundays and NO spotlighting !!!! they would got nuts with shotgun only though
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/08/18 19:04:35
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wayne c
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 18:51:43
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"Lets just change no Sunday hunting to no Wednesday hunting." Doesnt work for me. My problem is with the effect of more harvest to an already overharvested resource. Cutting out wednesday when very few go out hunting anyway would do nothing to solve that issue. A nonschool, nonwork day would have harvest that is substantially multiple times higher than a wednesday.
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wayne c
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 19:02:51
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"most of the others were against killing more deer... they get theirs but with an extra day others may get one too thus reducing the population and thus their chances for the next year.. yep = greedy..." Do you know that to be the case, or is it that they simply see the wisdom in not adding to the harvest and whacking everything brown, just because pgc says so, which lessens everyones chances for no good reason. Having a pathetic no entry buck contest, its not hard to see why they would feel that way. lmao. Our club is very small we have 150 active members.. lots of social members that do not vote on club matters because 90% of them are hunters and campers and are not up here in the middle of the week. Im sure those that DO vote, and the mothership pennfed are happy about that in most cases. lol.
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 19:10:44
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
"Lets just change no Sunday hunting to no Wednesday hunting."
Doesnt work for me. My problem is with the effect of more harvest to an already overharvested resource. Cutting out wednesday when very few go out hunting anyway would do nothing to solve that issue. A nonschool, nonwork day would have harvest that is substantially multiple times higher than a wednesday.
Same view in special reg areas ? What about Sunday hunting there?
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 19:13:55
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If all things remain equal and a few Sundays were introduced to archery and even one to rifle, I would say you are correct that more deer would be taken. It is obvious that this is a major argument in this matter. Has the PGC made any comments specifically addressing this?
This is where I believe it would be beneficial to see what happened after implementation of SH in other states. Obviously it would not be an apples to apples comparison, but you could get a reasonable idea of what to expect harvest-wise. You could also peek into hunter recruitment and economic impact while were you were at it.
As for the loss of land argument, that one is going to be tough to quantify. Based on my experiences, HR/AR was responsible for much of the recent posting in my area. From what I saw, it seemed like many LO got buck fever and wanted to protect their bucks for themselves. Additionally, the reduction in the "camp" deer herd prompted many to come to 2B for the unlimited tags and generous seasons, which triggered an increase in (slob) hunters and a subsequent increase in landowner-hunter conflicts.
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wayne c
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 19:19:18
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Not sure OA, if you are asking if i think it would be "harmful" there.... Probably not. But I also dont see it as being necessary there either. The goals there are more human conflict based than anything from what i know of the units and pgc claims.. I know 2b has been significantly reduced overall, but most of that has been in the areas that it can be. Though the biggest problem areas where they exist with unwanted overpopulated nussiance deer in urban areas etc. probably have not, nor would they with sunday hunting. Would i oppose it in sras? Yep. Because it would be seen as nothing more than a foot in the door just like when they put crossbows into the sras. This sunday hunting when it comes, in my view should be a complement to proper management Monday through saturday.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/18 19:21:14
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 19:23:11
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Wayne.. I simple posted some of what was going around in the discussion sessions before any vote.. and that most there said they had tags (PLURAL) and excited about the season.. but did not like the idea that Sundays would increase the harvest even more. As I have said I PERSONALLY do not worry about that and do not use that as any reason I oppose Sunday hunting.... in fact I truely did not give my opinion until the vote. I try to answer questions and present information... BUT add MY personal opinions and thoughts only if asked.. it isn't a message board I really try to not be too persuasive on any topic that is going to be voted on... In fact as director... I got it that we do more votes by seceret ballet now rather than just raising one's hand, where someone may not want to show how they voted .... this way no one knows how a person voted......
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 19:29:31
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Most of the posted ground in 2F that Ive came upon was that the PLO was trying to pass a message on to the PGC as to how they felt about what the PGC did to the herd population. The PGC encourages PLO's to open land so the PLO's said screw you, it's our land and our deer. Less deer and more posted land sent many south as Essox states.
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wayne c
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 19:31:52
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If all things remain equal and a few Sundays were introduced to archery and even one to rifle, I would say you are correct that more deer would be taken. It is obvious that this is a major argument in this matter. Has the PGC made any comments specifically addressing this? Do you think it would or should matter to someone who sees this as a problem, if pgc did?? Actions speak a helluva lot louder than their words. Not only because theyve been shown to lie so much, but for starters, they once again suggested over 900,000 tags and the boc voted yes. My unit has an amazing 65k even though our buck harvest fell through the floor last year and our "goal" here was supposed to be stabilization since 2004!. So no, im not particularly interested in much they have to say....especially when it comes to completely meaningless stroking pr feel good stuff to alleviate our fears. "This is where I believe it would be beneficial to see what happened after implementation of SH in other states." Show me one where the deer herd has been overharvested, Sunday hunting was implented and it helped matters, and I will agree. Of all the variables to consider with sunday hunting and to compare to other states, the deer situation is the one that is the very least comparable. Unlike us most states dont have 900k hunters, a declining deer herd, nearly a million doe tags, and a management agency with an agenda at play, that very few trust and with very good, well documented reasons. Like i said things like landowner issues... but again, i have yet to see any solid evidence available or provided that support any position on increased posting etc. " Based on my experiences, HR/AR was responsible for much of the recent posting in my area." I will agree in part. Im not sure about ar contributing, but it may have. Most of it around here was due to hr. And thats what ive been told straight out from some of the landowners that declined my requests for permission through the last few years. Too many deer being shot off and them seeing fewer around than they had previously or that they would like to see when they and their families hunt. Too many shot on adjoining properties etc. Unfortunately, adding to that hr isnt gonna help from that angle either. .
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/18 19:43:00
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 19:40:07
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Posting is here to stay. If ever the number return the signs will still be there. The management of the deer in some areas are a mess and the landowner is not to forgive.Sunday hunting should be a choice for the landowner. Public hunting should be what ever our state reps decide.
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 19:44:59
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wayne c
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 19:45:04
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Posting is here to stay. If ever the number return the signs will still be there. The management of the deer in some areas are a mess and the landowner is not to forgive.Sunday hunting should be a choice for the landowner. Public hunting should be what ever our state reps decide. Thats your opinion, and i respect that. But i do not share it.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/18 19:46:18
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 19:48:15
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Fair enough And I understand your views. Do you think the pizzed off landowners would reopen if the herd made a rebound?
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 20:09:52
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Do you think it would or should matter to someone who sees this as a problem, if pgc did??
Actions speak a helluva lot louder than their words. Not only because theyve been shown to lie so much, but for starters, they once again suggested over 900,000 tags and the boc voted yes. My unit has an amazing 65k even though our buck harvest fell through the floor last year and our "goal" here was supposed to be stabilization since 2004!. So no, im not particularly interested in much they have to say....especially when it comes to completely meaningless stroking pr feel good stuff to alleviate our fears.
Yes, I do believe it will matter to some. Your mind is made up, so in your case, no it wouldn't matter. But honestly I feel that it is a moot point considering the rate at which we are losing hunters. Even if the implementation of SH moderately slows the loss, the potential initial increase in harvest will be a wash with the loss of another 50k+ hunters in the next 5 years. Show me one where the deer herd has been overharvested, Sunday hunting was implented and it helped matters, and I will agree. Of all the variables to consider with sunday hunting and to compare to other states, the deer situation is the one that is the very least comparable.
Unlike us most states dont have 900k hunters, a declining deer herd, nearly a million doe tags, and a management agency with an agenda at play, that very few trust and with very good, well documented reasons.
MI and WI come to mind. They may not be 100% equal in all fronts, but are similar enough to determine general trends i.e. deviations in harvest with SH. Other states hold the best information available to us at this point, and it stands to reason that it should be used to demonstrate the impact of SH. It is a much better solution that the emotion filled what if's presented by both sides so frequently now.
post edited by Esox_Hunter - 2011/08/18 20:11:51
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retired guy
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 20:40:53
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As far as your comparisons go I hunt Maine and NY regularly and frankly after the first newness wears off you folks wont even notice the difference. Its just not a big deal or even anything to talk about in either of those two States - they have done it for years and years- its just normal for them. Must admit I hunt both in areas of very low population where Hunting is a valued tradition as it is with most all you PA folks. Dont know how it is in more Urban areas of those states but as stated its been that way for so long I doubt anyone even considers anything else or even notices for that matter. The posted thing is hard to figure-NY has a lot of it and Maine very little. Possibly in Maine it is lower cause of all the huge paper leases in the areas where I go.
post edited by retired guy - 2011/08/18 20:51:35
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S-10
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 20:55:36
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The stated purpose for all or nearly all the organizations that favor Sunday is given as maintaining or increasing hunter numbers.
The top two reasons for hunters leaving the sport in the latest hunter survey conducted by the PGC and revealed in the June BOC meeting was #1. Lack of game to hunt. #2. lack of places to hunt.
The majority of landowners are against hunting and many have said they will post their land if it comes to pass.
Allowing another day to pressure an already depleted game resource will not increase that resource.
Given those facts will someone please explain how Sunday hunting is going to do anything but lead to more frustrated hunters dropping out of the sport. Still waiting for an answer
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wayne c
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 21:21:14
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"Fair enough And I understand your views. Do you think the pizzed off landowners would reopen if the herd made a rebound? " Perhaps a few. I know some that stopped hunting due to ehd that killed off a lot of deer in one area, that allow hunting 2 years later. If they see enough deer, i dont see why that couldnt be the case with those that dont support hr after a rebound. Also, preventing even further reduction may prevent some that have not posted from doing so.
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wayne c
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 21:31:18
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"But honestly I feel that it is a moot point considering the rate at which we are losing hunters. Even if the implementation of SH moderately slows the loss, the potential initial increase in harvest will be a wash with the loss of another 50k+ hunters in the next 5 years." Noone can prove that it will slow any loss. In fact the opposite very well may be true if it does indeed inpact the deer herd. Also, there is no reason to believe that anything will be a "wash' when many states similar in size with far fewer hunters can still control their deer herds. That tells me that with our hunter numbers and more tags available, there is no reason why we cannot still kill far too many deer. And the smaller the herd gets, the smaller the harvest that is still "too many" gets as well.
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wayne c
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 21:32:14
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Still waiting for an answer Yeah, Id like to see that addressed as well. lol.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 21:52:17
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Do you think the pizzed off landowners would reopen if the herd made a rebound? You stated that the places you are aware of in 2F that are posted that it was deer numbers that got them posted... so I can not see those people all of a sudden opening their land for the same thing to happen again... Now as for the property owners that I know that have posted their land to no hunting... I do NOT know of of one single one that posted it because of lack of deer.. not a one... some got posted/leased to "make some money" and the rest got posted souly because of slob hunters, litter, property damage, ATVs, and trespassing by folks who never asked for permission to hunt there in the first place....
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/08/18 21:54:28
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wayne c
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 22:21:52
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MI and WI come to mind. First, i have no idea if reductions are or arent appropriate for those states, but know that it isnt here. But to address those two, Michigan has more deer than Pa, somewhat less hunters, but a fully 200,000 less antlerless tags!!  I have a very hard time feeling sorry for all the suffering in WI when they lead the nation in record book entries. They also have quite a few units that are higher deer densities than any unit in Pennsylvania. Also, some of their reduction efforts was due to cwd.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/18 22:23:40
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 22:45:22
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Again, I understand the comparison isn't full-proof and that I surely haven't done my homework regarding the current deer herd situations in those two states, but they both do share some demographic and hunting tradition similarities with PA. I still will contest that states such as these will be where we get our best available data and that we should use their experiences with SH as a guide to how PA will be impacted by SH.
It wasn't all that long ago that I really didn't support SH primarily for my own (selfish) reasons. I use Sundays during hunting now to move stands and check cameras (and fish) so I still don't see that as a loss in any way. I will admit that I still am not a fanatical supporter, but would like the opportunity to be on stand on Sundays. But if it doesn't make it through this time, life will go on and I will continue to hunt just as I did for the last 15 years.
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 23:13:15
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do NOT know of of one single one that posted it because of lack of deer.. not a one... You need to get out a little father from the porch or just get to know your neighbors better. NO DOE HUNTING signs are becoming very popular in 2F, know why ?
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 23:30:48
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Michigan Sunday hunting wasn't approved state wide all at once it was county by county like WV. Perhaps Pa might do the same. A large potion of Michigan (the U.P.) is nothing but hunting and fishing and I'm sure it had a influence on making SH law. I traveled many miles across the UP by sled St Ignace to Copper Harbor and really didn't see that many whitetails compared to Pa but yet SH is still permitted. Makes me wonder...
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 23:44:22
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Thanks for the heads up, I didn't realized that they approved county by county in MI. Do you know if it is approved statewide yet?
I just know MI has a lot of hunters and a deep rooted hunting heritage like PA, which is why I think a fair comparison could be drawn between PA and MI.
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wayne c
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 23:44:56
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'It wasn't all that long ago that I really didn't support SH primarily for my own (selfish) reasons. " There are selfish and nonselfish reasons to both oppose and support sunday hunting. I support it for my own selfish reasons as well as some that are anything but, including what i think is best for the sport overall, at this time, imho. I have no qualms whatsoever in opposing alot of the strictly deer management issues. This on the other hand is an issue where i really hate to oppose. I know there are some pretty good guys who support sunday hunting for just about all the right reasons and i dont like being at odds with them on this. But for me, unfortunately it is what it is.
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wayne c
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RE: Warsaw Sportsmen on Sunday Hunting ==
2011/08/18 23:54:02
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Michigan Sunday hunting wasn't approved state wide all at once it was county by county like WV. Perhaps Pa might do the same. A large potion of Michigan (the U.P.) is nothing but hunting and fishing and I'm sure it had a influence on making SH law. I traveled many miles across the UP by sled St Ignace to Copper Harbor and really didn't see that many whitetails compared to Pa but yet SH is still permitted. Makes me wonder... No need to wonder, the reason they can have sunday hunting even though low deer numbers, is that Antlerless tags in the UP are extremely limited. In fact in 2010 they issued NO antlerless licenses for 17 deer management units.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/08/19 00:01:25
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