tull66 
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 10:47:30
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ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
I knew when I posted that table the "AVERAGE" would totally 100% escape their brains.. but yet they call someone else a monkey ??????????? You're sounding pretty full of monkey dung. I saw it said average but it required a lot more typing on my part to show how bogus, careless, misguided, short-sighted, idiotic, illogical, opiniated without basis, your post(s) is(are). I'd have to say if the guy who did the table was a monkey those two showed they are jackasses in their understanding of what they read ....  Big mistake when a jackass calls someone else a jackass. Show us Jackass, using any years you like, any quantity of years you like, of PA deer kills, an AVERAGE harvest of 452,925. Here is the harvest data: http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=625882&mode=2 Feel free to use a calculator and your hooves, Jackass!
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
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tull66
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 10:50:05
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ORIGINAL: fishin coyote
Now I didn't go thru the previous yrs to see if it is correct nor do I care.
Neither did Trout, he's been downgraded from monkey to jackass!
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
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DarDys
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 11:09:38
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ORIGINAL: tull66
ORIGINAL: Dr. Trout
I knew when I posted that table the "AVERAGE" would totally 100% escape their brains.. but yet they call someone else a monkey ???????????
You're sounding pretty full of monkey dung. I saw it said average but it required a lot more typing on my part to show how bogus, careless, misguided, short-sighted, idiotic, illogical, opiniated without basis, your post(s) is(are).
I'd have to say if the guy who did the table was a monkey those two showed they are jackasses in their understanding of what they read ....
Big mistake when a jackass calls someone else a jackass. Show us Jackass, using any years you like, any quantity of years you like, of PA deer kills, an AVERAGE harvest of 452,925. Here is the harvest data: http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=625882&mode=2
Feel free to use a calculator and your hooves, Jackass!
Math is not Doc's long suit.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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tull66
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 11:35:44
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Neither is thought. DarDysDuncsDad, I plagurized some of your adjectives since you were so spot on.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The closer we adhere to the Holy Bible and the US Constitution (as it was written) the closer we get to the model that made America great. The great American experiment worked, human nature just got in the way.
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fishin coyote
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 11:40:33
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Tull,
Thanks for the link.
Closest I could get was 448,348 using the yrs 98-04. Who knows were they got the 452,925 from, maybe they added the road kills in LOL
As far as the shale gas goes I'm on the fence. I'd much rather see them clear cut some gamelands then pump chemicals into the ground.
Mike
Nothing is Free!! Reward equals Effort
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DarDys
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 12:12:05
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ORIGINAL: tull66
Neither is thought. DarDysDuncsDad, I plagurized some of your adjectives since you were so spot on.
Be careful or you will be termed a nitpicker, goon, thug, devil, or not "one of the good guys."
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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eyesandgillz
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 12:32:27
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Even using the latest estimated harvest, 308k still puts PA squarely in the #1 spot for the northeast states and still pretty high on the overall list.
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 14:13:21
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wayne c
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 15:21:45
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Even using the latest estimated harvest, 308k still puts PA squarely in the #1 spot for the northeast states and still pretty high on the overall list. Comparing to great deer number states like Maine thats so far north you might just get lucky and see a caribou...Then we have tiny states like Rhode Island, New Jersey, etc. Other known northern whitetail density powerhouses in Vermont and others.... Wow, thats FANTASTIC LMAO! And even some of them still have better hunter success rates. lmao.  still pretty high on the overall list For what its worth, F&S ranked Pa at 27 out of 37 states for hunter success rate in the link i provided. WHile they went back a ways with the data, that only makes things worse for your argument. Because that was even including the high harvest years that deceptively bloat the figures that are in no way representative of the much lower numbers today. Where do we rank NOW? One can only imagine. lol. 
post edited by wayne c - 2011/07/26 15:31:58
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S-10
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 16:36:07
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Isn't the only thing that really matters is how we compare to ourselves. Are we better off today than we were 5-10-15 years ago?
Are we killing more bucks that before AR/HR
Is hunter satisfaction higher than before AR/HR
Are Non-Hunting wildlife watchers content with their deer sightings
Are the various groups making up the CAC's satisfied with the number of deer
Are our hunter numbers rising or falling at the same rate as nationwide
Do we really have MORE and BETTER bucks than before
Has the incidence of Of Lyme been reduced as we were told it would be
Is our deer hunting THE BEST IN THE WORLD as Alt said it would be
ETC ETC ETC
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 16:52:51
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Yep, PA deer hunting is a deplorable, awful, atrocity.
I just wish you would have told me how bad it truly was before I wasted all of that time and money in it.
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bingsbaits
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 18:08:52
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I have always wondered how they figure "Hunter Success Rate"..
Is it by the number of tags filled or by the number of liscenced hunters that filled a tag ??
A very large difference in the two as many many hunters fill multiple tags. Heck Doc has 3 if he filled them all wouldn't that statistically , if you count filled tags as a hunter, show as 3 successful hunters when there was only one...
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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Dr. Trout
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 18:45:15
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To my understanding if I filled three tags it would show as three antlerless deer harvested period... which as you stated would make it appear to be three hunters.... I DO NOT THINK THEY SEPERATED IT BY HUNTERS... 
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wayne c
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 19:00:27
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Yep, PA deer hunting is a deplorable, awful, atrocity.
I just wish you would have told me how bad it truly was before I wasted all of that time and money in it. I have several thousand in gear. So what? Noone said our hunting is worse than the alternative.... not hunting. Anyone thinking that way most likely wouldnt be in this hunting forum. But that should not be the only other choice. At some point, proper management should play a role. When the hunting in the state in general, overall is fair to poor, and easily could be good to very good....but isnt...for no realistic rational reason other than because some obtuse thinking extremists think its a good idea to experiment...Im sorry, but i have big problems with that.
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wayne c
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 19:02:55
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I DO NOT THINK THEY SEPERATED IT BY HUNTERS... Um actually, i think it safe to say they went by general base license sales on the field and stream article doc... Because using the antlerless allocation wouldnt have accounted for the BUCK harvest. And the success rate was for DEER, not just buck or just doe.
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Dr. Trout
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 19:12:43
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If you read my post you will see I was replying to Bings when he pointed out I had three tags..... I never paid any attention to your field and stream info... because it was based on success ratios ... and the fact that we have so many hunters and so many tags PER HUNTER .. that comparison holds little for me to base opinions on.... If you take a herd of 1,000 deer and have only 200 hunters odds are they will be more successful than a place that has only 1,000 deer and 600 hunters
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2011/07/26 19:14:53
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wayne c
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 19:34:12
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Hunter success rate would be higher in scenario one most likely, but total kill would be higher in scenario 2. We have already established that we were down near the hole in success rate according to the article, So then we can look at our total harvest. We are back to the fact our manipulated estimated harvest is 309k. Which isnt near the top, even though a significant portion of states dont even add in for noncompliance, and arent even accounting for a portion of their harvest. lol.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/07/26 19:36:18
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RSB
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 19:55:54
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For what its worth, F&S ranked Pa at 27 out of 37 states for hunter success rate in the link i provided. WHile they went back a ways with the data, that only makes things worse for your argument. Because that was even including the high harvest years that deceptively bloat the figures that are in no way representative of the much lower numbers today. Where do we rank NOW? One can only imagine. lol. The Field and Stream ranking on hunter success rates is of little value though if you really take a look at both the number of licensed hunters and the seasons and bag limit differences between the states. An example would be that even though Alabama is ranked number one they don’t have nearly as many hunters and also have extremely liberal seasons where you can harvest three bucks in the season plus two antlerless deer per day over about a two month deer season. Number two Georgia allows two bucks and ten antlerless. Third ranked Mississippi allows three bucks and five does. All of the others top ranked in hunter success rates allow hunters at least two bucks and from three to as many as twenty-six antlerless deer depending on the hunt zone. If Pennsylvania had as few hunters as most of those states and then allowed hunters to harvest two or three bucks with no antler restrictions plus almost unlimited does I am sure Pennsylvania would rank much higher on the hunter success ranking list. Without having comparable numbers of hunters and bag limits the Field and Stream ranking isn’t really doing an apples to apples comparison. R.S. Bodenhorn
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wayne c
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 20:00:22
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Isn't the only thing that really matters is how we compare to ourselves. Are we better off today than we were 5-10-15 years ago?
Are we killing more bucks that before AR/HR
Is hunter satisfaction higher than before AR/HR
Are Non-Hunting wildlife watchers content with their deer sightings
Are the various groups making up the CAC's satisfied with the number of deer
Are our hunter numbers rising or falling at the same rate as nationwide
Do we really have MORE and BETTER bucks than before
Has the incidence of Of Lyme been reduced as we were told it would be
Is our deer hunting THE BEST IN THE WORLD as Alt said it would be Wow, that certainly puts things into perspective dont it? 
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wayne c
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 20:22:37
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The impressive thing about some of those states is how large the harvest is, numerically, with such small hunter numbers.... In georgia its less than 250 k actually after those deer last i looked which has been a few years. Speak to their herd size i guess. That is also what makes the very liberal bag limits possible. "If Pennsylvania had as few hunters as most of those states and then allowed hunters to harvest two or three bucks with no antler restrictions plus almost unlimited does I am sure Pennsylvania would rank much higher on the hunter success ranking list." Compared to the other states? that would be pure unsupported speculation, although not very likely. I see no reason to believe that our hunter success rates would be much higher. I think it would be very optimistic to even say similar. Mississippi has a MUCH larger deer herd than we do.. If you mean compared to our own current ranking of 27, then yes i agree. But that isnt saying much. lol. Our ranking isnt just hurt by our hunter numbers though, its also a product of a herd that has been unnecessarily excessively reduced in many areas. That too has effected the ranking.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/07/26 20:58:39
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Esox_Hunter
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 22:20:27
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
Compared to the other states? that would be pure unsupported speculation, although not very likely. I see no reason to believe that our hunter success rates would be much higher. I think it would be very optimistic to even say similar. Mississippi has a MUCH larger deer herd than we do..
Miss is also under scrutiny by biologists for having too many deer. Biologists are documenting severe habitat depletion in areas of the state. Sound familiar?
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wayne c
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/26 22:57:43
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Im sure that can be said to be the case in certain portions of lots of states all across the country. Big difference between routine herd maintenance and this...this...whatever you wanna call it. lol. Not overly familiar with Miss...and some questions i would ask about them before being able to answer your question are: do they plan on going with obtuse vague goals based on indian cucumber and other nonsense? Do they plan on taking the herd WAY below carrying capacity across most of their state? Are they gonna do all that because timber industry & audubon says so? If so, then my answer would be an emphatic YES, it sounds extremely familiar!... But im guessing not because noone else but us has done this, let alone a very hunter friendly state, which is what Mississippi appears to be. I really dont believe they will undertake a bizzarre transformation selling out their states hunters as our agency has. They seem to be very hunter friendly and it shows. For example i had just been over reviewing their deer annual report. Comparing it to ours was kinda funny. They spoke of hunter opinions on the report. They had some nice pics of hunters with harvested bucks and an article about a handicapped kids hunt. They even utilize bowhunter observation surveys! For pgc that anecdotal data is blasphemy where deer are concerned...But apparently fine for christmas bird counts and grouse drumming counts etc. Now thats considered hard data. lol. We have No attention given to hunters or hunting other than as a "tool" to kill the vermin. PGcs annual report information and most information made available on deer period is all very businesslike, almost mechanical. Deer seen as a nuissance and only concerns are how much trillium and oaks they have eaten within the last survey period. Im not bashing pgc either. The difference is so blatant its actually comical.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/07/26 23:15:23
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retired guy
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/27 08:19:39
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Lemme get this number thing straight--If ya got ONE hunter and ONE Deer and that Hunter kills the Deer your now the best Deer Hunting State in the whole darned Country? 100%. Chasin numbers can make ya nutso.
post edited by retired guy - 2011/07/27 08:20:43
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wayne c
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/27 10:28:16
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Huh???
What the success rate shows is probably the most important thing for someone wanting to know the best place with best chances for them to kill a deer. From a hunter perspective Id imagine that not an insignificant thing? Most would probably want their chances to be BETTER and not WORSE one might imagine?
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retired guy
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/27 13:08:24
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Agree completley Wayne - but ya gotta look at all the factors when reading numbers- that was kinda my point- looking at only one thing can skew the entire picture. Hunter sucess only goes so far- there were a lot of years when I would shoot nothing but a decent Buck- passed young bucks and does in the process-preseason showed me he was there and as often as not, he won. Then there are those guys ( we all know them) who couldn't find a deer in a Zoo. And of course the folks who get a tag and dont hunt at all or only one or two quick trips a year to over hunted properties. As I hunt around a bit my first and most important 'stat' is and always will be DPSM. Then I look at State regulations, availability of properties with limited pressure and THEN the Success ratio. The whole picture is often quite different than the stats on one thing might make one believe. For example large DPSM numbers in a State with VERY limited access and heavy pressure on those places might make a Hunt lousy. However a State with average DPSM and very low Hunter pressure on a lot of available land may well have excellent opportunities. I know when you guys are looking at these thing you are looking in all likelyhood at just where you hunt and in your State- When I see this stuff I am comparing and digesting it in a somewhat different mode because I tend to travel a bit aside from my regular Ct. and Northern NY.--different strokes. Some of you guys made an EXCELLENT point questioning the success numbers when comparing the number of actual guys who harvested a Deer and those who harvested several. Which numbers are used is an excellent issue and it can really skew the larger picture.
post edited by retired guy - 2011/07/27 13:20:18
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wayne c
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/27 15:25:19
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RG, this has been discussed from EVERY angle, for many years now. This "hunter success rate" thing isnt the be all end all. This is just one more angle discussed. NONE of them however paint pa in a fantastic light. And as s10 said the most important thing is comparing US to US. or more to the point, our potential and our history etc. You also assume far too much. I havent base anything on my area alone. In fact, my area is supposed to be one of the better of Pa areas! lol. And you arent the only one that has hunted other states I have hunted several other eastern states a time or three and some of our neighboring states i had hunted semi-regularly in the past. Maryland WV, and Ohio. I agree about the success rate thing when considering the multiple kills. But not so much in states that have like 300k hunters and they are killing nearly as many as we are with 3 times the hunters! All that tells me is there hunting is great. But i agree for us, that if you take into account the basically limitless tags in our urban sra areas, and the multiple kills made there by many individuals, it shows how our overall figures are bloated and actually even worse than they appear when speaking of statewide.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/07/27 15:29:54
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retired guy
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/27 18:21:26
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Agree Wayne- thats the kinda stuff I look at too. Makes a huge difference. Also have to watch the historical stuff real close. Have hunted some places that were the hottest places to go 30 or 40 years ago and have grown to the point where there are few Deer now. Gotta watch that 'average' stuff real close -On the flip side a bad weather year or two can lower the stats significantly yet at the same time lead to a great upcoming year-- lots to digest with numbers.
post edited by retired guy - 2011/07/27 18:27:31
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wayne c
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/27 18:49:20
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I would hope that this gas boom has some good effects, such as opening up the canopy and creating more edge habitat and maybe reclamation plantings that will benefit deer and other wildlife. In some areas of the state, more of that type habitat is a welcomed addition to the mature unbroken forest system. Would seem fairly significantly given all the roads, pipelines and openings needed for the pads that would be needed for all that drilling by the time all is said and done.
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retired guy
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/27 22:00:06
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Wayne- Have hunted some of the big mature forest systems- LOUSY hunting YEA YEA they all talk bout the huge bucks they occasionally produce but thats cause the kill rate is so poor nobody goes there. The hunter sucses on those biguns is lousy too- cept on the borders. All that canopy leaves nothing growing underneath- ya walk through the woods like walking down the street- nothing in your way. No deer to speak of either. The Aderondiaks(sp) AFTER the big fire were GREAT but when it grew back-- yuck. Same thing up in Northern coastal Maine- used to be THE place - now yuck. Been to both a few times- better off chasing Bears. Those openings are great but ya gotta have enough ''edge' to support the herd year round- think a few spots here and there woulndn't be enough, anything is better than nothing though.. Best thing I have seen in 'big' woods is an active harvest program for the trees themselvs- the deer herd generally follows over time. Actually think the long roads they produce have more edge than some of the cuts.
post edited by retired guy - 2011/07/27 22:09:12
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RE: 8 new wells to be drilled on SGL # 90
2011/07/27 23:38:37
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I would have to agree with you somewhat. Only in the big woods though. Problem is wells are popping up where access is shorter and cheaper. Many small areas are now polluted with wells. They are not hard to find. Google earth shows them all.
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