Why Do They Do It?

Ive got lots a reasons why people can snag and get away with it. now ive said before im a local, and relatively young, so ive seen alot of shenanigans on the water that i could probably write a small book about. But i can give you my theory.

when i used to work at a local fishing shop guys would come in all the time looking for the biggest hooks possible, most amount of weight, and a long floppy pole (no pun intended). now this was long after the snagging days but i could tell looking at a few of these individuals they were here at the peak of snagging 20 years ago, looking at them now they probably coasted in fumes with 3 30 racks of pbr $40 in their pockets and with the intentions of sleeping in the parking lot at their next mornings snagging spot. Therefore these guys are on the mentality of "well theyre gonna die anyways" or "ive been caught before its no big deal i just got a warning". Theyre just walking talking 200lbs of monkey crap in a 50lb bag. They have no respect for the town, the river, other fishermen, or the fish. Its pathetic, ive had a few arguments with snaggers before, and with a DEC officer giving me crap cause i was with a few buddies having fun just drifting and shooting the ****.

All in all, its ignorance, lack of respect, and skill. Sure anybody can catch a fish who is on the mentality to f@C# and die, but how many can have the patience to (my favorite tactic) tie on a popsicle fly spot a king drift it by him so many times he gets angry and chomps down on it like a shark (go ahead this fall try it, its absolutely hilarious).

I can go on but itll only make me angry, and me voicing my frustrations about it at you guys the wrong group to direct it at.

I need a beer.

Cheers Gentlemen.

ORIGINAL: pafisher

There are those that really don't know better,they are told they won't hit so they lift them.These types might try to do it the right way if they are shown how and then they believe they hit.
Then there are those slobs that really don't want to make the effort so they rip away trying to get as many hooked as possible.The only cure for this attitude is heavy fines and enforcement.
I have personally helped a few of the former types over the years,it was very rewarding to get them into it and see the smiles on their face when they felt that head shake and ensuing battle.
IMO the DEC could do more to educate by enclosing a flier with each license issued in Salmon country stating that they do hit if you FISH for them.

Thats true too. I like the idea of enclosing a information paper with each license sold. Also they have a freshwater fishing guide in all the sports shops that would also be a good place for a information paper. As for getting guys to change their ways, ive helped a few, working at a local fishing shop i personally took some people out and showed them personally how to fish properly. Thats rewarding also, especially with facebook being popular ive got a few friends ive met fishing up here that message me in august to schedule a time to meet up fish, have a cookout and drink some brewskies.

    I am at a place in life where I too talk bout snaggers and rippers--- but let me tell ya how I started out over 30 years ago- probably not dissimilar to a lot of guys who fish up there.
   My first day on the SR fishing low end ( now DSR) in the early Am was one of the biggest runs of Chinook I have ever seen and it lasted almost all day long. I had my 12' salt water rod with 20 lb test and some #1 hooks with green beads. The hook size and beads were suggested at a tackle shop.
      Remember in those days trebble hook snagging ( which I never did) was the norm upriver. ALL the shops sold premade 2' hooks and leader setups with about 25 lb line ready to attach to your swivel and rip away with in the rest of the river.
       I stood by a rock and fish came through and stopped 1 to 4 at a time every few minutes for HOURS. I watched those beads pass by them and dangle in front of them time after time with nothing happening.
    The fly guy right above me had many hookups and eventually came over and told me that these fish were never gonna bite and were running to breed and die and how ya had to hookem by lifting or get skunked. I stood back and watched a while and realized that the bulk of guys were lifting and hooking up.
    As time went on over a number of years I could do such a job on 'artful lifting' that even on camera it looks like the fish hit. -Just get the right drift by the right rock and bango ---head hook. I had switched to  a fly rig by then.
    Remember when the Wardens would dress like fishermen and one would stand back with a big shoulder mounted camera and they would pick off guys? -well they stood next to me in  the LFZ and I knew it. I 'artfulled' several right in front of them and aftrwards had lunch with them and admitted what I was doing. They couldnt believe it and said how they had stood by me watching cause of many hookups and believed I was fishing the 'right ' way even after close inspection and looking back at the camera shots too.
     That had taken time to perfect and I was ripping for a couple of years before the lifting got perfected. YEA I had read 'they hit' but on my 2 day a year trip but had never experienced it. .
     Over time I DID however see some guys who I believed HAD induced hits and it bothered me that I couldnt do it so I tried it a lot and got so I could actually 'catch' salmon. BUT they had to be someplace where they werent herded and chased all over the darned place like a bunch of longhorns being gathered up for a cattle drive. That led to trips to the SR during the "slow times" without the crowded conditions.
     That turned out to be great cause I discovered better Steel fishing at the same time. Now I have my place up there- fish pretty much year round and do it the 'right 'way- but it was a process. A process that many who get one trip a year with no actual intervention by somebody who knows the deal will never get to know. Especially when fishing the places where each and every fish they see has been chased, snagged and bothered till its ready for a heart attack.
   Sorry if some dont like that but its the truth and the way it is. Feel like a reformed Deer poacher sometimes.
  BTW = always 'fished' for steel-mostly with garden hackle.Ya know-even when lifting mostly letem go with a few going into the freezer or smoker but mostly c&r after the first coupla years. Never told people how big a fisherman I was either just said they dont bite much -if at all but when hooked up front the fight is great. Thats what kept me comin back cause I fished Salt a LOT and caught big fish regularly.

Drake-
Its already starting to be changed. The Tackle Shops dont sell those 'ripping' leader things anymore and the sales folks generally stress lighter lines and tackle that is consistent with real fishing . Ya dont see too many of the 5' stiff snagging rods right up front in the shops anymore either, but some still feature them. Guys like WED working in places and giving advice turn more folks than one can sometimes believe.
Those who have been around a bit and exposed to the system see more and more real fishing happening and are therefore more prone to trying it the 'right way'
In other words the whole 'culture' of the rivers fishing is turning over. Most guys up there ripping have been there for a while and -like I was- are still doing it the way they learned on that river
Hopefully more and more each year will get it right and change over- That said dont think it will ever completely change but the shops are where most guys start and as they change the way they 'sell' the fishery it really helps things move along in the right direction.
NOT putting it all on them, like Pal and WED  say,  we gotta be involved too..

Slammo:
My thoughts are that if your consider "fast water flossing" as being unethical - a.k.a snagging, then you should point your finger at 80% of the folks hooking up on a regular basis.

I don't consider it blatent snagging, neither does the DEC as long as you have a legal leader/weight setup.

If I spot a few fish holding I sure as Haydes ain't gonna float a dry fly over their heads...

RT:
You don't need a 5' tuna rod for "fast water flossing". Matter of fact, a short rod like that will put you at a disadvantage if you are fishing across fish. The true Xpurts use Noodle Rods & Two-Handle Rods.

During the mudshark runs everyone & their Uncle is casting across/up and trying to get that perfect drift - right across the gaping, vacuum-sucking mudshark mouths...

Your mileage may vary.

Nice post- welcome aboard -and I think you hit some nails on the head with it.
      Tuna kinda hit it too a week or so ago when he said that folks who have time to fish the river more often are probably more prone to C@R too.  ( paraphrased)
      Carry that further to the 'regulars' way of fishing as compared to that guy with one crowded weekend with fish that are pushed all over and scared half to death.
     If I got Salmo right he is mostly concerned with the outright rod ripping snaggers than the flossers. Hope thats correct. Those guys never belonged anywhere and always push the limits and are generally those rude nasty folks we carp about regularly-not that 'flossing' is right either.
     Dont think most of them will ever change without a pinch or two. That would makem leave or get it at least partially right.
      Guess I should have said earlier that I had become a good 'flosser' instead of 'artful lifter'- just liked the title a lot more.
   Step up guys cause in a few weeks this place is gonna be crammed with participants- most of whom are 'flossers'.
Hey Salmo- great subject- was glad to get that off my chest.

New dude- welcome aboard, but why not introduce yourself before you start stirring the pot.

Drakesalmo- inadvertent stuff isn't on the menu. What's your opinion on the rippers/rapers? Why do you think they do it?
As most have said & I know to be true, once they're past the ball park they pretty much mostly have PTSD. Sucks.

I am a local also and I really quit fishing up there a while back due to the ignorance, garbage littering the banks and the overall lack of respect SOME (probably should be most or many) of the guys up there show.    I just got sick of fishing, hooking up once and then having 20 guys elbowing me out slinging lead.  Back to the topic. I too will admit I have lifted my fair share of fish and also got good at it.  I did it as a kid because everyone was doing it and it was legal in the snagging zone and for the most part,  I did not know any better.   I met an older gentleman one day and he took the time to show me how it was done.  I will admit that I am still not very good at it, but I would venture to guess that I have landed more legal fish than many of the rippers.  
Let me get to the real reason I posted this though.   I have a friend who is a ripper, and he recently go into fly fishing because I gave him a hard time.  I went with him once  and tried to give him the limited knowledge I had.  I hooked up once and needless to say he got frustrated fast.   Half way through the day,  we went up to the FFO zone and started to fish.   I see a couple of guys fishing and they hooked up a few times.   My buddy walked up to one of them  and   Said something like    " I see your having some luck,  I'm new at this, do they really bite"    The one guy looked at him and then yelled to his buddy   "Hey, this A hole wants to know if they bite"   laughed and ignored him.   Needless to say their  superior attitude  turned him off .   A simple 5 minutes of sure they bite,  this is what we are using  this is how we do it would have given him encouragement to try the proper way.    My point here is that information is power and if someone has the nerve to ask,  please take the time to teach.   I am not saying give lifters a sermon, but if someone asks please share.

P.S.  he is still ripping

ORIGINAL: salmotrutta

Drakesalmo- inadvertent stuff isn't on the menu. What's your opinion on the rippers/rapers? Why do you think they do it?
As most have said & I know to be true, once they're past the ball park they pretty much mostly have PTSD. Sucks.

Slammo - "fast water flossing" - as you put it, is not inadvertent stuff. Contrary to what anyone may claim, it is the #1 Fish Catching Technique employed on the SR. Anyone that states different is full of it.

Why do rippers rip? I don't know. Ask the DEC, they are the ones that encouraged the practice back when the man-made fishery was built.

Past the Ball Park? hahahaha

The Staircase and Ball Park are the Biggest Snagfest Areas on the river - especally the BallPark - heck the Ballpark area is so friggin easy to snag slammons that a caveman - or the Head Salmon Guru of Salmon Crazy parks his azz there....:)

Them fishez have bumps on their heads before they reach the Black Hole - after 350(give or take) of the finest anglers money can buy pound the living crap out of them in the DSR.

Once again I ask you - why do you consider "fast water flossing" as snagging?

ORIGINAL: retired guy

   Just read the SR book. Said this is one of the top three world class rivers for Salmon.
 

What a surprise...

p.s.

"world-class" is a very over-used word these days,

ranks right up there with the word "Hero"

Slammo don't blame the playas, blame the game...

It's all just interweb babble anyways, the Slammin River is what you make of it.

like RT - I like his style, he just goes feeshin and actually tries to feesh to the feeshes. I hope the dude hooks up with a State Record Atlantic some day... and I have to agree with him on the beauty and solitude of upstate NY. I love the area, can't believe that it and it's people are part of the New Yawk Nanny System. I suggest they secede and become Vermont-South.. Heck, then I can bring my firearm up - and get this - no permit required....

back to the Slammin Riva..
It's a great place to catch Big Fish - if you have the tolerance for nonsense. It seems that my tolerance level decreases with each passing year - that's my problem.

What makes me laugh are the folks that insist that they catch Slammin without using any of the items on Slammo's list.

Hey, at least the Guides that backtroll plugs and freely admit that they are force-feeding the fish into biting pracxtice truth-in-advertising.

I've been having fun evenings at the Golf Course Bass pond...

lotsa top water action on the hula poppers and jitterbugs,

will have to take a 5wgt and toss some poppers - they are whackin stuff close to shore.

Here's another why do they do it for ya dt?????

zero tolerance continues.

WTF man, WTF?

In my case it was out of ignorance and frustration. My first trip was two years ago. Here is the ignorance part- we waded in Trestle before sunrise to as far as our waders allowed us.We watched the clock then started casting and reeling( as hundreds of salmon probably laughed at us and headed upstream BEHIND us). Everybody else followed our lead.By the midday we were try to rip one.Finally somebody explained to us on day two what we were doing wrong. No salmon landed but at least we fought a few.The following year I took my son to spend a few days at SUNY Oswego over Columbus weekend as he was in the college selection process. His high school coach grew up in Bath and suggested some smaller water to the west.Day one nothing (the casting and reeling still didn't work).Day two met two older guys with fly gear. They were GREAT to talk to and a lot of fun. The one guy kept breaking off fish and the other one kept saying "for God's sake you're worth four million dollars-you can buy new line".The other guy replied"it's only five years old". These guys taught me and we took turns in one great spot. Hook a fish, move downstream, let the next guy go.The best part of the day came later when a Dad and his son (about 10 yr old) showed up. This guy was way worse than me but he was doing the right thing by taking his kid out.Oh yea, the millionaire was fishing an "UglyLoomis" half G.Loomis half Ugly Stick.The other guy hooked one and immediately handed his expensive rod to the kid.We all watched with big grins as the kid landed his first salmon. Thought the father was going to cry. The owner of the rod smiled at me and said "That's what it's all about". God bless that guy -wish I got his contact info. Now that I'm a little more educated,you maniacs have me chasing Steel in sub-freezing temps.Education can cure a lot of bad behavior, arrest and fine the rest. My two cents.

ORIGINAL: dimebrite

ORIGINAL: salmotrutta

So it's Mid July already & I know we are all getting our brains on the prize for this Fall.

Snagging- I thought it would be a cool thread to discuss this.

I am not talking about how it was legal  once upon a time. I mean now- in the present tense.

Why do you guys think they do it???

Lets have everyone give their honest thoughts/possible reasons here.

I don't care about the DEC tip line or what you see right now. I just want to know why these people think snagging is somehow an acceptable practice and how they can sleep at night, or go home and tell their friends and family how well the fish were biting for them and everyone else around had no luck.

wow, ive been busy for a while, seems to be alot of action around here though... its great to see

for snaggers; i think they do it for the same reason anyone else does whatever they want for whatever reason... theres no explaining it... why does a ship crew net tuna? why does a deer hunter shoot a deer? why do people drin k and drive, why do people use drugs, why do homeowners trap squirrels and drown them, why does a person set a mouse trap to kill one, why do people pull corporate scandals....yadayadayadayadayada?????? everyone has there own ways and reasons for justifying their actions... legality is the driving force, but at the same time ethics comes in to play at the same time with snagging.

im gonna go out on a limb now... lets compare it to prohibition... when alcohol was prohibited, it was illegal to consume or produce alcohol; did it realy stop though???? no chance. my granmother who was born in italy helped her mother crush grapes when she was a young girl in prohibition times... does this make sense at all???

now, for actual blatant rippers... its fueled by ignorance(not so much negatively), frustration, or blatant blood thirst. for c*rist sakes, the indians speared them for their needs... remember being a kid and killing every ant you see; how about that fly that lands on you... do you kill him???? how about the guys that go bull frogging with 22 rifles???

my personal feeling; IMO, the river has really cleaned up from what ive seen goin on my 22nd season of steady fishing... for salmon, i fish broken water mostly; i tend to fish spots that most dont... with that being said, my presentation for SALMON may floss some to many fish sometimes. but from my results through the years ive really learned how these fish think and act when entering the river in the earlier half of the season. i've found many fish can agressively hit in certain conditions. i feel as if heavy oxygenated water (not necessarily right in the white water) is where they are most agressive. this is where they actually rest and seek shelter, and in turn they will strike out of frustration. also, IMO, when fishing for salmon, you have to be atleast in the center of the water column to entice them. now with all of this being said, where are we heading with this???? the issue is the lead, are we going to ban lead on the river??? should this river turn in to a canadian style river with traditional fly tactics only???? i dont think it should. but even if it did, dont kid yourself in to thinking that these guys fishing with sink tips and swinging flies arent lining fish from time to time... i've witnessed it first hand myself... and if you beg to differ, try it yourself... ive found myself getting hung up on bottom with sink tips while throwing rope traditionally. now think about it even more... if you get hung up on bottom when fishing sink tips on the fly; why couldnt you swipe a mouth when combing the water with your fancy fly pattern you're so proud to fish???? ITS INEVITABLE.... IT HAPPENS

for the blatant ignorant guys who dont even know how to make a cup of coffee let alone try to catch a fish, help them as they need it desperately. for those guys who know exactly what they're doing, i leave them alone... to each there own man... they know what their doing, and me trying to prove them wrong wouldn't get anywhere. life goes on no matter who is wrong or right...

alal in all though, steel is my passion

its good to know we are all on the same page on these thoughts.