Personally I enjoy the boards and many of the regular responders as well as the ones like that kid looking to buy a gun. Agree its too bad about 'deer wars' which seem to be  just the same few who apparently have little regard for each others opinions on PA subjects. Guess that's life in many respects though--hard opinions on subjects concerning our sports. Same thing would happen in a Club or Gin Mill- don't makem bad people - just very opinionated.
  My biggest concern is that  nobody else gets on from other places,  even though these two Forums are not designated to a particular State as others are. There is a good deal of usable info that is discussed that applies no matter where you hunt.
   Can only hope that its NOT because of 'the fight' and that others simply don't choose to participate. It surprises me cause PA does have its own boards and these two seem titled for ALL hunters.
  Started a 'non argument' thread a few weeks back that had decent posts and respectable readership and never got into arguing-so it can happen.
    It would stand to reason though that if a guy started a post that quickly turned into others having a war about something only thinly related he might just not return after a while.

BTW--If somebody wants to have a tour -why not?  Doing 'public relations' and such is part of the job. We did it at my LE place all the time- part of the deal.
  Also---If that tall scrub was inside a non deer occupied fence and the low stuff was outside--POINT MADE.
   (unfortunately for me my whole place in Upstate NY all looks like the high side)

Points taken Deer- BTW, do the Oak seedlings survive outside the enclosure ?
   Dont know bout that stuff in PA cause Ct is loaded with Oak everywhere you go. In the Fall we have woods covered in nuts sometimes making it hard to pattern  Deer or Turkey cause they can literally stop anywhere and do just fine. Mature Oak seems to be our dominant tree. So many nuts here that there are carpets of them left in the Spring on windblown spots in the woods.

"Dont know bout that stuff in PA cause Ct is loaded with Oak everywhere you go. In the Fall we have woods covered in nuts sometimes making it hard to pattern Deer or Turkey cause they can literally stop anywhere and do just fine. Mature Oak seems to be our dominant tree. So many nuts here that"

Same here in many areas retired guy. It not how regeneration is analyzed though. They assess it based on regeneration of seedlings etc. in a manner that is very stringent so as the end result would be a completely unnatural environment that exists nowhere else in the eastern us. You would need to look into the assessment process to understand fully, as well as understand some of the things that actually do effect the regeneration within pa.

"Over the years there have been dozens, if not hundreds, of hunters who came to the tours with intent of disproving what the evidence of the habitat and history show as it relates to deer management."

News to me. Most that i know that attend are the same few, and already support the plan. Not doubting there may be afew that opposed it, but hundreds or thousands that have "tried to disprove"? Give us a break.

"Mostly they came to set us dumb Game Commission people straight and proving to the crowds that we really don’t know what is going on."

That happens daily on many message boards from what ive seen, and they succeed regularly. Just because you arent willing to own up to it doesnt make it so.

"That is why some of the biggest detractors refuse to attend a tour and also why they work so hard to undermine the facts provided at the tours."

I refuse to attend "tours" because its ridiculous. What makes a diff. if i attend and continue to disagree? It accomplishes absolutely nothing other than wasting a tank of gas, and a couple hours of my life.

"That is why some of the posters here have chosen to attack this topic and me."

No. I didnt attack this topic or you.. I said its a waste of money and resources and it is. then from there..YOU attacked ME. lol As for attacking you, the reason your "views" are attacked by some is because you dont tell the truth on a regular basis. And thats not a "slanderous" mean spirited comment. Ive proven it. As have many others across several boards. You dont own up to anything when proven wrong, and dont even bother to "right" your wrongs, yet continue to preach the same thing anyway in the exact same manner. Thats decietful, and the only reason you get the reactions you do period. Has nothing to do with anyone personal feelings towards you or even you being "the opposition". Its all about how you go about business and nothing more.

"The tours and I are among their most dreaded enemies"

You are trying to make yourself and the tours that bring in a handful of people at a clip important apparently. The "problems" that matter, are on staff at UPPER positions at pgc. They are the problem. The tours are nothing but a fairly harmless symptom of the actual problems.

Its okay. Pretty soon it will be Wayne and Deerfly left to attack each other if they want to carry on a discussion. 

Its okay. Pretty soon it will be Wayne and Deerfly left to attack each other if they want to carry on a discussion.

Yeah. Because we are clearly the problems here.

Its a huge problem when i point out a clear and proven inaccuracy? Is it a big problem when i state my opinion about a pgc practice that i believe to be a wasted of money? Is it justified that from there I get personally attacked for expressing those views???
Thats some pretty distorted logic. I say something that you guys dont agree with....your side belittles me for it...and its MY fault argument has ensued. Brilliant.

Btw, im not whining, because i couldnt care less about the insults etc.. Just countering your half baked claims of exactly where the "problems" lie.

and less making every thread about the PGC bashing or the deer program

I commented on the deer tours. Dont like it. Tough. From there, it became whatever it became with help from your side. How about you run your little "site" and let others who are responsible and not up pgcs backside run this one or the others where you are not the administrator "K" doc?

This site hardly need your and a few others continual attacks on other posters, mistruths and damage control but i dont whine about you being censored. Guess it all boils down to who is on the side that is more heavily laden with "proof" within the debates i guess.

I guess I hit a nerve there wayne ???

truth always hurts when it comes back and smacks one in the face !!!!

Just prove me wrong .. where are the boards that you guys are making RSB, dpms, me or the PGC look like BSers ..

you posted saying they are out there.. you have the "duty" to prove that is true... and it is not a case of what I just posted...

well time for the waders and some trout fishing ...

I guess I hit a nerve there wayne ???

No not at all. Just experessing some thoughts. It takes alot more than that to "hit a nerve". Sorry, if that were your intent, as usual, you failed.

"truth always hurts when it comes back and smacks one in the face !!!!"

Well then, sorry about your face, i guess.

I do not remember that being said nor do I know that that statement is entirely true in this area ... It is pointed out that sunlight and time to grow out of a deer's reach are needed for success in growing a mature Oak Tree... and I am not aware of anyone going inside the fences and pruning tree...

Thanks for making my point. That is exactly the time of information that is intentionally omitted from the tours. I obtained the info from a DCNR forester while walking our property and I remember seeing it in a DCNR report , but I don't remember which report it was in.

I remember another early years tour where the group stood for about 5 minutes listening to hear what we could hear... everyone said NOTHING.... and you guys pointed out where else could we stand and not hear a single bird tweet or chirping.. everyone learned something then about lack of habitat on other wild things... now songs birds singing in the area and nests visable inside the fences in those trees...

Not hearing birds is not at all unusual even in an area with a well developed understroy. I have spent many hours on stand without hearing a bird for extended periods and then for some unknown reason, the woods are alive with birds.

"All that being said I have taken issue with some of the stuff here myself when even as an outsider I have seen things that seemed silly. That however is the condition we could find in any States Game laws anywhere we go. Its not always the way one individually sees it or would prefer it to be."

Thats not an accurate view imho. Its not a matter of what any one two or small minority sees problems. This is a huge issue, as big as any in the states history. Its well documented and has lead to lawsuits, forced audits, legisltive interventions, fee increase denials and a whole pethora of other things you wont be seeing ongoing at any one time in say, CT....or any other states for that matter. lol.

"Saw the same thing with Local State and Federal laws I had to enforce in a career of l/e, not everything is tailor made to all."

Funny i never heard of that...Yet you and probably most other connecticut sportsment HAVE heard of the nonsense in Pa. that has been ongoing for a decade. Our situation has been big national news for some time now. It also has very likely will effect future management in some other states.

" Gotta get over that stuff and move on- life is too short to have a glass half empty all the time."

Let it go and with no opposition things would get way worse. I dont expect you to fully understand. As for the glass being "half full" that sentiment is reserved for these conversations where it is appropriate and fits perfectly. I dont go around the rest of my day every day with a chip on my shoulder towards the game commission deer management plan. Its ashame but when discussing these "management issues" there really isnt a whole lot of good to be said. And its not the usual run of the mill stuff that effects ever states management which hunters might not all agree with. It could be stated that we had THAT condition about 10 years ago. Had some grumble there werent enough deer a small minority.... Always a few gripes some legit some not so much. Business as usual. Now its ridiculous. Most hunters arent happy and havent been in awhile. Hunter/pgc relations are horrible. And the deer herd continues to decline. And the direction of allocations etc. is not getting any brighter. The inappropriate stuff is well documented and will continue to be a problem. Im sorry if you dont enjoy reading about it, but it is actually meaningful to some of us Pennsylvanians.

This topic was about "the deer tours" and my initial post was very topic specific. The original poster didnt like my reply so brought into question my views of all the rest.

Though it is all entertwined. There is not a management agency with lower credibility in the nation and thats a fact. And these tours are nothing more than miserably failing attempts to gain more support for an agency that has lost much credibility and a deer plan that is failing miserably. So pretty much most of what has been discussed is on topic despite the repetition.

Yeah, they may be a waste of money, but they waste far more on far more obtuse things....and the sentiment among hunters/public isnt changing anytime soon, for those reasons and more, Im not even that concerned with these "tours" all that much, and only reason ive made as many posts on the topic is due to need to reply to others continually addressing me on it. Otherwise this particular thread wouldve probably been a "one...possibly two at most, and done" for me.

And now that i didnt leave much room for anyone to misunderstand my positions. I am done with it.

No "hard feelings" at all towards you, and Ive replied to your concerns in a pm.

Rain cut the fishing short.. caught 4 though !!!

This topic was about "the deer tours" and my initial post was very topic specific. The original poster didnt like my reply so brought into question my views of all the rest.

#1 he did not see the habitat part of the title I guess

It's just more of his BSing....

in case he forgot here is his first reply to this thread... when I mentioned I had been on several and thought they were a great learning experience.. and going more than once allows one to see what changes occur from year to year...

You may as well doc, from what ive heard on other message boards from those saying they have attended and plan to again eetc..and the vids ive seen, mostly its just the same 9 or 10 people show up for each one. Seeing as you havent been to one in a year and half, that would qualify you as a new face there.

More of our money wasted unfortunately. These enlightenment attempts arent doing a thing to change public perceptions about much of anything. Nor should they.

As usual TOTALLY negative and filled with his opinions trying to be passed off as factual...

note the "other message boards" reference (he does not know 1st hand) .. then the lie about 9 or 10 folks only attending.. just because there is only 9 or 10 in a photo does not mean that is all that is there.. that's all that was in that particular photo... and the BS about me being a new face..

He has never been on this tour so has no right to try and express any of his personal (agenda based)opinions as to the truth of how many attend or what is discussed there... ...

It's just one of a hundred examples of how he tries to make his personal opinions sound like facts...


I'll let him have the thread for more of his anti PGC BSing now....

The tour is a learning experience for anyone open minded enough to be willing to learn something they may not have know ... and when John does his part after the tour about the HISTORY of deer in this area it is very interesting too..

I'd love to post 20 more photos of those in attendance over the years.. never any 9-10 as Wayne suggests... but it would be like beating a dead horse.. he'll continue to post his opinions and try to get others to believe them as facts...

well I will be more than happy to answer that after this trip.. last trip there were many 3 foot oak saplings growing outside the fences in several areas.. I'll see if they are still growing and let ya know... OKAY ????

Here's one area and you can see there are several Oaks growing....

sorry double posted ?????