When ever you have a problem report it. Not only to the PGC but to your local law makers as well.Don't be afraid to contact your local state rep when there is problems with the PGC. Its about time some one has reconized some of the issues we hunters face while in the field. A new law has been signed to try in get the PGC in line. A point in the right direction.

PA: PGC stop-search power is reined in by new law
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.Posted: Thursday, October 21, 2010 12:00 pm | Updated: 4:08 pm, Tue Oct 19, 2010.

By Jeff Mulhollem Editor | 1 comment

Harrisburg - Depending on whom you listen to, legislation Gov. Ed Rendell signed into law Oct. 7 to reduce the powers of Game Commission officers to conduct stops and searches to the same ones granted other police in the commonwealth is either very significant or insignificant.

House Bill 181, authored by Rep. Bryan Cutler, R-Lancaster, allows wildlife conservation officers to stop vehicles or conduct searches only when there's "reasonable suspicion" of a violation.

"This brings the searching and seizure provisions of the Game Code in line with state police and any other law-enforcement official," said Cutler. "The statute as drafted was unconstitutional."

Cutler's measure had very strong support in the General Assembly. The state Senate unanimously approved House Bill 181 in early October, a few days before adjourning its legislative session. The House unanimously passed the measure back in June of 2009.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania praised the governor and Legislature for recognizing the flaws in the current law and for approving House Bill 181.

"Sportsmen do not give up their rights and aren't presumed to be criminals simply because they hunt and fish," said Andy Hoover, legislative director of the ACLU of Pennsylvania.

Under current law, Game Commission officers can stop and search someone at any time and for no reason, Hoover pointed out. HB 181 requires that commission officers find reasonable suspicion that a crime has occurred to stop a vehicle and to ask for identification.

They will need to meet the stronger probable-cause standard to conduct a search.

Hoover noted that the ACLU of Pennsylvania has received numerous complaints about stops and searches by commission officers, although he admitted that he knows of no legal case that accused the agency of abusing probable-cause rules.

His organization has never brought a case against the Game Commission.

"We've been aware of the flaws in the current code for some time," Hoover said in a written statement. "At the ACLU, we prefer revising bad law through legislation and only resort to litigation when there is no other choice. In this case, the Legislature and the governor understood that this needed to be fixed."

A Game Commission spokes-man said that the new law - now Act 64 of 2010, which will go into effect in 60 days - will not change the way the agency's officers go about their duties. He noted that despite "sloppily written details" in Title 34, the state's Game Code, agency officers have not abused their powers.

"The commission has for many years trained its 136 wildlife conservation officers, 36 regional supervisors and 29 land managers with law-enforcement authority to work within the same Supreme Court-defined probable-cause rules as police," said press secretary Jerry Feaser.

"We have complied with the Supreme Court rules despite how Title 34 may have been written.

"We issue 9,000 to 10,000 citations a year, with a conviction rate last year of about 97 percent. Our officers give 12,000 to 14,000 warnings annually and have 190,000 law-enforcement contacts a year. In all that, we've had just a handful of complaints filed."

Feaser pointed out that the Game Commission supports the new law. "We helped to write the bill - we worked very closely with Rep. Cutler," he said. "Through the years, changes were made to Title 18, the Crimes Code, that affected all law enforcement in the state, but for some reason the changes were never made in Title 34. Why Title 34 was worded the way it was, we don't know.

"But the bottom line is that our officers have always acted within the bounds of the U.S. and state Constitution," Feaser said.

WOW there seems to be a lot more negative than positive stories on the WCO'S than I thought. Hope the PGC can gain back respect from the hunter. Until changes are made, I see none. Hard to belive Feaser only had a handful of complaints. I dont think he would lie, do you ?

How about you Trout Doctor? Dont you have any comment on this or did you quit again? How's my spelling been ?

I don't think it's about "winning". Everyone has their opinion and the freedom of speech. We don't live in a perfect world but if I think it can be changed for the better, I will do what I can to try and improve it. I'm not anti by all means. If we ever met face to face I could tell you many stories about the PGC as well as other law agencies. I think my points are clear and I am not alone on many issues.If people don't like what is happening then change it. This country has seen enough of our government's ways and showed them a week ago it's time for change. PGC needs change !

I never rag on the way others hunt... to each his own.. if you want only trophies.. fine.. if you want anything with antlers.. fine too.. if you want the woods to yourself .. fine == stay away from SGL and othe public land..if you only want antlerless fine to.. try not to shoot BBs though...

I was for crossbows... still see nothing wrong with in-lines... like the Saturday opener for bear.. like the archery bear season.. like AR for the bigger buck many are seeing... understand the need for the HR.. etc.. see what ever gives and makes more opportunities for hunters is fine with me... heck if they want to make baiting legal so be it... it may help a few guys shoot a deer that other wise wouldn't.. not ever one has the time to devote that you and others have.. many I know work 6 days a week 10 hour days.... and many do not take it all that serious.. after all ==== THEY'RE DEER ...

As for 2.5 year old ?? I have no idea -- I could care less about how old the deer is or ever was that I shoot.. never look in ones mouth back then... it's a deer.. it's dead and within 12 hours on the way to the butcher for ground meat...


I love venison.. and would be disappointed if a year ever comes that I do not shoot one or two deer... but deer hunting is still an enjoyment FIRST...

Perhaps your not taking it seriously enough.

thus that statement has NEVER applied to me.. I enjoy it.. it's fun to get out there... and after attending many funerals for younger friends and family.. I thank GOD every day I can still do it and still enjoy it... even if it shooting them in my "backyard" after I have named them....

never take it that serious... FUN = FUN = FUN... I'd never lose sleep over deer hunting...

and for ONE MORE TIME.. I never said I do not see bucks every year.. I said they are usually protected deer...

heck just this year since I started back hunting in archery season and taking advantage of less spooky deer I have seen 4 legal bucks now.. and 6 protected...


one last point about no big bucks in my hemlocks... I can get into the hemlocks thru my property.. everyone else hunting this section of SGL#54 has to go across one of two "wide-open" crop fields.... guess what === there goes the deer... I hear them in the dark running over the hill and down in the valley (hollow) that's why that's the place to hunt buck.. that's where they all head from hunters walking into the gamelands around here.. and guess what = it's the same for the other side of this section of gamelands...I no longer go down there... and as you know I shoot the first legal deer I see on opening morning... that's my purpose of being out there .. enjoy the hunt and get some meat

You wouldn't know about that because, as you stated, your WCO lets you break the law

No (If you would only read what I post before jumping to conclusions)..what I said was

My local WCO would understand if I "technically" broke the law and carried a field tip to unload my crossbow with ...

As you well know... there is a long thread on the subject.. but of course once again you have nothing to reply to me unless you have to "make things up" that I said or did.... gheez..


How can it be enjoyable if they get very upset if a WCO does his job or a fellow hunter wanders into "their Zone" by mistake... ???

what would archers do if there were as many archery hunters as rifle hunters out there this time of year...

would not be enjoyable then I'll bet...

or do they still get upset when someone wanders into their "zone" in rifle season too...

and people continue to think that in today's world deer hunting has not turned into ... IT'S ALL ABOUT ME ....

IMHO the TV shows have ruined deer hunting === not the PGC ....

it's become a ==I deserve to do what I see the folks on TV do and the hell with anyone else ==... anyone who does not think that is what it's become just needs to read this board...

Doc- Your posts again just confirm that you don't have a clue as to what's necessary to consistantly harvest older bucks and really don't care to learn. Keep killing your pet deer and quit trying to lecture others on why they should follow your example. Just because you don't have the skill, ability or desire to do it doesn't make it wrong. It's called hunting, not shooting, remember. BTW-- "technically" breaking the law makes you a lawbreaker subject to the fines as prescribed by law.

ORIGINAL: SonofZ3

ORIGINAL: ShutUpNFish

ORIGINAL: SonofZ3

The trooper CANNOT pull you over unless you have broken some law, or your vehicle fits the description of one that they're looking for for any number of reasons. Its not a matter of troopers not pulling you over just to check your license because it would be a****move, they can't, legally. You don't need PC to check a license. The analogy fails because your trooper pulling you over example isn't legal.

I'm calling BS here....a trooper can pull you over whenever he wants and theres nothing you can "legally" do about it. What are you going to do, sue him or take a trooper to court for pulling you over for no reason?? LOL Theres ALWAYS something a trooper can say which will give him some reasonable suspicion to pull you over, trust me.

If you have nothing to hide, everyone should just quit their bit#*ing and let these WCOs and Police do their jobs....I'd like to see MORE enforcement personally within reasonable perameters which doesn't include deep in the woods while you're on stand and hunting. Just my .02

Actually, suing is exactly what you would do. Without PC its not a legal stop. You can choose to believe officers make things up to provide PC, but what I stated is true.

So whats your point in even mentioning it when EVERYONE knows you'd have a snowball's chance in H3LL trying to sue an officer in a court of law that pulled you over for PC???

Noodle-- you haven't been paying very much attention over the years to our jib/jab to have that opinion. Doc thinks we should all be content with just shooting does and promotes everything the PGC tells him to and admits it and it gets tireing to some of us who take hunting seriously. He doesn't know how to hunt older bucks, shows no interest in learning and puts down those who do. Perhaps because the PGC is trying to shift the pressure from bucks to does where the fastest way to herd reduction is. As for me, I hunt as the situation dictates for the greatest chance of success on the type animal I'am looking for. That includes tree stands, still hunting, spot and stalk, etc depending on weapon and season, and state. Treestand hunting, as with all other types can be successful or not depending on the knowledge of placement, height, wind, etc. As far as being easy, consider that success on bucks averages 17-20% per year by all methods. I'll compare horn boxes with you anytime you want.

"Now if I am committing some sort of violation, by all means come on over and straighten me out. But the constant checking while geese are flying or during prime time archery is B.S. in my opinion and is just a wco creating busy work."

i hunt wilhelm for geese at least 2-3 times a week .. its gotten to the point the officer pulls up and recognizes me and my buddy kris and turns around and leaves ... but previously he has showed up multiple times when the geese were about to take off and when they notice them the fly opposite direction... now im not blaming this souly on the WCO but i will say the added movement no good .

Bings: Actually, they are. Officers on foot can walk up to anyone and talk with them, and ask for ID. WCO, Statie, Municipal, all of them.

heres where things get confusing. An LEO can walk up to you and talk to you and ask you for ID even if he/they have no suspicion that you committed a crime. This is called a mere encounter, and the citizen can walk away. As soon as reasonable suspicion exists that a crime has been committed you can be detained, and have to prove who you are.

Heres my personal opinion of how this would work. A WCO walks up and asks to see a license, now its a mere encounter, and you're allowed to refuse. If you refuse to show a license, especially if you didn't have one showing, that would create a reasonable suspicion that you were hunting illegally, at which point you could be detained and be required to show id.

heres a breakdown-
mere encounter- citizen can walk away, not say anything
reasonable suspicion- not free to walk away, ID, possible "terry pat" JUST for weapons if situation justifies
PC- Arrest, Miranda, Search incident to arrest etc...

Just try walking away from a WCO when he asks for your license and see what happens...

Anther that is sad is when a hunter appeals a citation and walks into the magistrates office and you mishear the judge asking the WCO how the family is doing.

Three years ago,I spotted a huge buck in a narrow woods along a back road just out of city limits,the next day I set a ladder stand over a 6 foot scrape.I'm hunting it,that evening,the hunt starts of fast a big doe comes to the scrape,then leaves,I see the big green truck going up and down the road,then they spot me,the bright bulbs they are,they drive away like they didn't see me.The main guy drops the other one off by my truck and keeps on going,in the mean time a small buck comes to the scrape and runs away,this guy's in full green wool jacket and pants start his stalk on me through 200 yards of begger lice,gets to my stand sweating his fat butt off,and I'm mean he's coverd from his shirt to his ankles with stickers,asked me if I shot a deer? What would I be doing up here if I shot a deer at prime time I think I would be looking for it? Then it's the license check,he tell me to get down,I send down my license on the bow rope,and tell him to put my Pa. and ohio license back the way he found it,he check it out and seems happy,I said I wish you could have waited at the truck and not ruined my hunt,he leaves and walk five feet away from the scrape,he's almost to the road,when he forgot something,he comes back to my stand,and asks me if I have a orange hat? I show him my hat and climbed down,the hunting area was so bugger up and I never saw a deer over the last 3 days of the season there.I was a little upset over that.I did shoot a big 9 pt in gun season about 20 miles away. I WILL NEVER IN MY LIFE HUNT DUCKS OR GEESE AT PYMY,I drew blind 39,a killer blind,close to the lake and the birds fly early,big fat greenheads are in shooting range and it time to shoot,OUT OF THE CORN STALKS,not one but two can we have a license check and shell count and magnet testing on all our shells,come on,guess what? No duck shooting for us,we did kill 4 honkers with 6 shots,34 shells left that could have been used first light ducks,really could they have checked us 10 minutes earlier? They check all are license once at the building.

Musky: I already explained above why the staties don't pull people over just to check licenses.

I have a lot of different opinions as to why driving and hunting, in terms of lciense checks, are not and never will be viewed as the same, but they're just my opinions, so it wouldn't be any sort of concrete answer. If you want I'lls hoot you a pm about it, I don't ant to open another can of worms in public.