no doc, i release all my fish, not like you who lie about it..no i dont shoot squirrels ,rabbits,female deer,..just bucks..big ones..when i was younger i shot everything and never thought about it..now, i think about it..gary alt did not care about the "big picture"..all he wanted was to eliminate the deer from the state..we are not indians,davey crockett, or dan boone, we are supposed to be sportsman, and you like others are killers, just to brag about the doe i shot with one shot, or put an arrow right thru its heart, who cares, you just killed something for your ego...if too many deer, shoot them, if not enough deer let them walk....how many doe heads do you have on the wall...????? ..put picture of big bucks you have..shouldn't take up too much space..don't run down to the neighbors to get a pic of his..yours..sorry i can't change my feelings about animals because of the board..and i am not alone ,,,maybe lots of the guys won't admit it...

Doc Quote===So what you are saying is you did not want them to do their job and acheive their goals of managing all Pa wildlife.. you wanted them to do whatever it was that makes you and some deer hunters happy --- the hell with everyone else .. right ???

The average age is not going down as old ones quit because there are not enough young hunters to off-set the baby-boomers quiting.. that is simple math and easy to understand... and that is not the PGC fault... but you believe what you want and I will continue to post what I believe to be the facts.....End Doc Quote

Where in he// did you get that bogus idea. I want them to do exactly what they were created to do and it's NOT taking the herd down to where hunting is no longer necessary as they have done on some of the State Forest and ANF where there are areas of less than 4 dpsm. Even the experts managing the KQDC admit they are failing to improve the B/D ratio, get improved reproduction, and are losing hunters because of lack of deer on the ANF. Their studies have shown the need to cut more timber and remove the fences if the want to improve deer health. Something the enviromentalists aren't about to let them do. The buck/doe ratio has DECLINED since AR/HR. The only thing AR/HR has done is help pave the way for ECOSYSTEM Management in the state and human hunters aren't considered useful in that philosophy.



As far as your simple math goes you said it not me. I don't know where you went to school but I challenge you to show me the math where you remove for example-- 200,000 60-65 year olds from a 1,000,000 population and replace them with 120,000 12-15 year olds and not have the average age go down. Unless you can do that tricky Dicky math the reason for our greater loss of hunters IS NOT due to the advancing age of the hunters and instead is due to younger hunters dropping out in numbers equal to or greater than the older hunters since 2000.

Another slow day on stand.We will be heading to a spot we usally only go to after halloween but got alot of good bucks on camera there so you never know.The old man saw 3 long beards and one 400 to 500 pound bear today.

ORIGINAL: S-10

Doc Quote===So what you are saying is you did not want them to do their job and acheive their goals of managing all Pa wildlife.. you wanted them to do whatever it was that makes you and some deer hunters happy --- the hell with everyone else .. right ???

The average age is not going down as old ones quit because there are not enough young hunters to off-set the baby-boomers quiting.. that is simple math and easy to understand... and that is not the PGC fault... but you believe what you want and I will continue to post what I believe to be the facts.....End Doc Quote

Where in he// did you get that bogus idea. I want them to do exactly what they were created to do and it's NOT taking the herd down to where hunting is no longer necessary as they have done on some of the State Forest and ANF where there are areas of less than 4 dpsm. Even the experts managing the KQDC admit they are failing to improve the B/D ratio, get improved reproduction, and are losing hunters because of lack of deer on the ANF. Their studies have shown the need to cut more timber and remove the fences if the want to improve deer health. Something the enviromentalists aren't about to let them do. The buck/doe ratio has DECLINED since AR/HR. The only thing AR/HR has done is help pave the way for ECOSYSTEM Management in the state and human hunters aren't considered useful in that philosophy.



As far as your simple math goes you said it not me. I don't know where you went to school but I challenge you to show me the math where you remove for example-- 200,000 60-65 year olds from a 1,000,000 population and replace them with 120,000 12-15 year olds and not have the average age go down. Unless you can do that tricky Dicky math the reason for our greater loss of hunters IS NOT due to the advancing age of the hunters and instead is due to younger hunters dropping out in numbers equal to or greater than the older hunters since 2000.

 
It is nothing but a bunch of bologna when anyone talks about there not being a huntable population of deer in any unit in this Commonwealth. First of all there have always been places in every unit or county with very few deer the same as there have always been places with plenty of deer in each unit. It has always been the responsibility of the hunter to figure out which places had plenty of deer and hunt there instead of where there were no deer.
 
The other thing that is just pure nonsense is that crap about why some hunters have or are quitting. I have been patrolling and checking hunters for going into thirty-four years now and I can tell you exactly which hunters are very noticeably missing from the hunting fraternity today. It is the road hunters who are missing and I figure that is just good riddance since they always caused more damage to the image of the hunting fraternity than probably any other hunter short of the flat out poacher.
 
As for why so many of the road hunters have dropped out I guess we can all speculate. It might be because it has gotten harder for them to kill a deer out the car window now than it used to be. It might be that the price of gas got too high and they could no longer afford both beer and gas so they just stay in the bar, with the beer, instead of risking a DUI while burning up gas money trying to find a deer to kill when beer is easy to find without burning up a tank or two of gas each day. It might just be more the state of the economy than any other factor to. Or, in all reality it is probably a combination of all of those factors. But, I can and will tell you right now that the number of road hunters has dropped to way less than 10% of what it had been ten years ago.
 
The number of road hunters has been on a steady decline but that is about the only place I have seen a decline in hunter numbers. When I do parked car counts on peek hunting days those numbers have remained relatively stable over the past ten years so it appears to me that all we lost were road hunters and as I already said good riddance, we didn’t want or need them in past and don’t them again in the future either.
 
R.S. Bodenhorn

From 2000 to 2008 we lost 12,250 senior hunters who had bought senior licenses in 2000 and did not buy one in 2008. That does not account for those that quit and were replaced by new folks turning 65... the new sale was there but instead of two there's only one (that's one more hunter no longer in the woods plus the 12,250) ....

There are 80,000,000 (that's million)folks born between 1945 to 1964 (baby boomers) the FIRST of those turned 65 in 2010 (this year) we'll see what the senior sales show for 2010 ... down by
2-3% is my prediction and it will get worse ... and as I have said it will continue for years... the youth will never be able to keep up with the folks leaving the sport in today's world.... at least not for 20+ more years.. !!!!

so yes -- the average age will go way down as the boomers leave, but the boomers getting old will change alot of things about this country and our life styles...

come on bodenhorn...you spend too much time doing something other than looking for hunters,,how could you make such a statement????? two years ago i counted 100 cars in 5 miles 50 on one big gas line..last two years i have counted no more than 35 in same stretch and same time first day of rifle season..heard 15 shots all day ...first day last two years..if so many deeer and hunters, they using silencers on their guns..??????....yes there are many road hunters i have been following one all week ruining his am and pm hunts..goes 60 miles an hour trying to lose me..i think he shoots a crossbow out of the window..I will film him and call wco's..

Not sure what you're doing with the 60% ???



In 2000 they sold 51,039 senior (over 65) licenses...
In 2008 they sold 38,779 senior (over 65) licenses...

That's... 12,260 lost hunters (licenses sold) period, not even considering anything about replacements... or the 60-65 year olds... just those over 65 (12,260)...

I was more referring to the fact that those quitting aged 65 or more are not being replaced by more 65 or olders....

Doc-- The PGC says we are recruiting 60 hunters for every 100 we lose. thats where that number came from. We lost 12,250 seniors but we gained new hunters to cover 60% of that loss. Thus the actual loss of 4900.

RSB QUOTE==I have been patrolling and checking hunters for going into thirty-four years now and I can tell you exactly which hunters are very noticeably missing from the hunting fraternity today. It is the road hunters who are missing (End Quote)


We have lost 22% of our deer hunters since 2001. They were not all road hunters. Has the PGC EVER issued citations to 22% of the hunting population for road hunting? Have you ever issued citations to 1% of the hunting population? How about one tenth of one percent? There is no doubt some who left were road hunters and my feeling is if someone gets caught shooting a decoy from a vehicle he deserves what he gets. To say the loss of over 190,000 deer hunters is mostly road hunters is a bogus attempt to keep from admitting where the real problem is.

We have lost 22% of our deer hunters since 2001. They were not all road hunters. Has the PGC EVER issued citations to 22% of the hunting population for road hunting? Have you ever issued citations to 1% of the hunting population? How about one tenth of one percent? There is no doubt some who left were road hunters and my feeling is if someone gets caught shooting a decoy from a vehicle he deserves what he gets. To say the loss of over 190,000 deer hunters is mostly road hunters is a bogus attempt to keep from admitting where the real problem is

S-10 your anti-PGC and PGC staff is so overwhelming it is making you look bad...

RSB no where said anything about road hunters in the state of Pa... he was talking his area.. and what he has observed... read what he wrote..

he talked about what HE HAS SEEN and recorded in his area ... and I know for a fact he does not cover the whole state so I am positive he has not lost 190,000 hunters in his area.. .. he is out patrolling so would only naturally see what is going on better than you or I who are at home or in the woods hunting... remember 270 stated they (WCO) are never in the woods... so they would know what is happening on the roads better than the hunter in the woods would..

I am not even sure my WCO would agree on the parking lots being the same around here though, he has in fact told me he sees less hunters in the woods in ALL HUNTING SEASONS.. not just deer season in this part of 2F... and I know the two parking lots nearest my home have 75% less cars in them than they did 15 years ago



so to attack RSB for sharing the info in his area with us is just shameful imho..


BACK TO LOST LICENSE...

I can not for the life of me figure where you get 60% replacement of lost hunters...


I already showed that seniors sales fell 12,260 == gone


ADULT sales...from 2000 to 2008 fell 103,773 THOSE ARE GONE

JUNIOR sales fell 17,657 .. those are gone

so if people are replacing the lost hunters how is it possible for all three age classes to be less and less...

I can see where if 100 people quit and 100 took their place... the total sales would stay the same... BUT... it would not go down... ?????

If 100 quit and only 50 start the sales go down by 50..

If 100 more people started than quit the sales would go up....

I just do not see how you feel anyone (let alone 60%) are being replaced when the sales do not show that at all.......

as for hunters.. keep in mind the juniors and mentors can NOT go anywhere without an adult right beside them... so I feel they do not influence deer hunting or deer movement at all... nor would they provide more vehicles in the parking lots .. nor would they provide more road hunters driving vehicle... their influence on hunting is minimum at best...

It's called seeing the "BIG PICTURE"... not just nit=pickin...

Doc---RSB Quote==I have been patrolling and checking hunters for going into thirty-four years now and I can tell you exactly which hunters are very noticeably missing from the hunting fraternity today. It is the road hunters who are missing

If your going to run interference for him again you should take up reading comprehension first. Show me where that statement is just talking about his area.

Or this one--RSB Quote==But, I can and will tell you right now that the number of road hunters has dropped to way less than 10% of what it had been ten years ago.

RSB is a big kid, He can fight his own battles, were not on your site anymore.

its ethics doc, maybe you dont have any, shoot the does, not with milk drippings come from her udder, that doe was only a yearling with her first fawn...just like cub shooters, they have to live with that, not me.Not ashamed of my upbringing, you must not have had any...RSB...quehanna, 12miles of highway, years ago, campers, trailers, tents, all over the area..last year..Not One camper on enter length of highway...

That's cause they were all roadhunters and quit.......
 

Perhaps the 12,250 is the result after subtracting the hunters dropping out and then adding the ones just turning 65 and purchasing a senior license but you can't count them twice in the loss column.

The 12,260 is the number of fewer senior licenses sold in 2008 than in 2000, thus 12,260 senior hunters stopped hunting by 2008... no matter how you try to spin that.. they are gone... they did not buy a license....... I am not concerned about how many new ones we had.. we still lost 12,260 and YES even as you agreed, it will get worse each year now...

the chart I used did not show 2009, I maybe should have taken more time to try to find one that did .... but the point stays the same I am sure.. we are losing older hunters and they are NOT getting replaced at anywhere near the same rate...

Bings, you will love this-----If most of the hunters who quit are lazy road hunters as alleged by our favorite WCO and spin doctor I wonder how this could have happened?-----------------This is an exerpt from Carl Roes report on the PGC activities given on Feb 2010 concerning their "2009" activities.

"In the law enforcement accountability section we had five formal complaints compared to seven in 2008 and 10 in 2007. Of the five, one was sustained and was a case of unprofessional demeanor, and overall our wildlife protection efforts were again strong as we increased apprehensions for illegal take of game by five percent, hunting over bait by 13 percent, "(hunting or taking game with a motorized vehicle by 31 percent)"