crossbows and the end of the world as we know it.

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DanesDad
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2010/07/20 00:28:45 (permalink)

crossbows and the end of the world as we know it.

Remember how a lot of people were worried about the legalization of the crossbow and how it would swell the number of hunters and result in a higher kill number, and maybe lead to a shorter archery season? How many people on here know someone who hunts with an xbow that didn't hunt archery before? How many have given up the vertical bow to switch to the xbow? I hunt a couple different places which, while private, are pretty much open to the public (if you ask) and I haven't even seen anyone carrying an xbow. Granted, it is early and things may change as time goes on.
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    pghmarty
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/20 00:55:07 (permalink)
    How many people on here know someone who hunts with an xbow that didn't hunt archery before?
    0

    How many have given up the vertical bow to switch to the xbow? 0

    I had a Barnett Panzer 20 years ago and it was fun to shoot but I don't plan on getting another.


    #2
    bingsbaits
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/20 06:52:20 (permalink)
    It was also going to sell 30,000 new archery tags and liscences to save the PGC.
     
    A big "0" to all questions......

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


    #3
    dpms
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/20 08:16:18 (permalink)
    Word is that archery license sales increased about 15,000 units for the license year. 
     
    This is just the first fall though.  The sunset provision will allow a decision based on facts and not speculation, which is a good thing.
     
    By most accounts, the BOC as a whole is becoming more supportive of the issue. 
    post edited by dpms - 2010/07/20 08:23:41

    My rifle is a black rifle
    #4
    Noplacelikehome
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/20 09:17:46 (permalink)
    Great point DD.
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    bingsbaits
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/20 12:07:55 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: dpms

    Word is that archery license sales increased about 15,000 units for the license year. 

    This is just the first fall though.  The sunset provision will allow a decision based on facts and not speculation, which is a good thing.

    By most accounts, the BOC as a whole is becoming more supportive of the issue. 

     
     
    You full well know no matter what the data says, "They will never use the Sunset provision to repeel the crossbows in archery"...
    They are here to stay....

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


    #6
    Esox_Hunter
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/20 12:46:21 (permalink)
    No doubt you are right Bings.

    My area hasn't changed much since the x-guns were implemented in 2B(before the rest of the state). I would venture a guess that about half of the people I talk to or witness during archery season are using the guns. I don't know anyone who started hunting just to use an x-gun. The majority of the people I see/know using them are converts and hunted archery previously.

    I can't wait until my AK-47 season starts in the next couple years. I for one am sick and tired from being excluded from the current seasons and it is past due that I should be able to hunt with my semi or even fully auto rifles. It's only fair...right?
    #7
    dpms
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/20 12:55:05 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: bingsbaits

    You full well know no matter what the data says, "They will never use the Sunset provision to repeel the crossbows in archery"...
    They are here to stay....

     
    They may not Bings but at least we will have good data leading up to the re-vote.  I am hopeful that if the data is what I expect it to be, some festering wounds will begin to heal.  If that is the case then the data becomes valuable in other ways.
     
     

    My rifle is a black rifle
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    HereLilFishy
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/20 13:40:32 (permalink)
    I know 1 guy who gave in on his compound and bought a xbow.Im sure there are more out there.
    #9
    Outdoor Adventures
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/20 13:58:57 (permalink)
    I feel that the use of Xbows introduced some hunters into archery. Bad thing is some thought that using a Xbox required no practice,just aim and shoot. Then there are the newbies that think that shooting at a whitetail at 50-60yds is not a problem, just shoot for the big part. Many found out that taking a whitetail requires more than just pulling the trigger on a Xbow. For some Xbows have their place. I am not really a big fan of the Xbow, although I own one.
    #10
    Claypool313
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/20 19:57:20 (permalink)
    Put the arrow-rifles back in firearms season where they belong.
    #11
    BIGHEAD
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/21 05:34:47 (permalink)
    I bought a XBOW because my shoulders are not so good. But I sold it and went back to the vertical bow. JUST BECAUSE YOU GUY'S DON'T LIKE THEM LOL really just sold the XBOW the main reason was the weight and trying to hold the darn thing hurt even worse.Ended up with the alpha max man that is a sweet bow and very fast

    KEEP"EM SCREAM"EM DAVE  ONLY CHILDERN and WOMAN use ALWIVES FOR STRIPER BAIT
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    chicken27
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/21 10:39:30 (permalink)
    I bought the old man an x bow for christmas.He used it late season with no luck.I ask him if he was going to use it in archery he said probably not but he is going to use it for the archery bear season.His x bow is sweet you can shoot the mcenzie eyes out at 60 yards with no problem.
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    MuskyMastr
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/21 19:11:49 (permalink)
    With what broadheads?

    Better too far back, than too far forward.
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    chicken27
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/22 08:46:37 (permalink)
    NAP xp pro series.I'm not shooting that far free handed that's resting on a quad.I would never recommended shooting that far at a live animal.All the books i been reading latly they say to learn to hit a pie plate at least 40 yards.You guys that hate the x bows you got to remember they lose alot more energy then a compound the farther you shoot them.I say the only difference between an x bow an compound is the amount of practice it takes to be death with one.
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    Esox_Hunter
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/22 09:50:48 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: chicken27

    You guys that hate the x bows you got to remember they lose alot more energy then a compound the farther you shoot them.


    That's not really true. Gun bolts are heavier per inch than a standard arrow. And most x-guns will shoot as fast if not faster than a bow. Arrow weight vs. bolt weight is comparable in most instances. Speed is comparable in most instances. Downrange energy loss between the two will be neglidgable.
    #16
    SilverKype
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/22 09:52:13 (permalink)



    Remember how a lot of people were worried about the legalization of the crossbow and how it would swell the number of hunters and result in a higher kill number, and maybe lead to a shorter archery season?


    I hope you don't think one year is gonna make a big difference, especially in these economic times. 60% of Ohio's hunters hunting "archery" season is made of xbows and they love drivin' deer. Some of us care and teach the bowhunting heritage and don't want to see the same happen to PA.




    How many people on here know someone who hunts with an xbow that didn't hunt archery before?


    A guy I work with and I'm taking him hunting with me this year.


    How many have given up the vertical bow to switch to the xbow?


    I know of two. One so he doesn't have to practice and another so he can shoot farther.




    My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
    #17
    chicken27
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/22 10:26:01 (permalink)
    They say after 30 yards the bolts drops dramitacly because of how short the bolts are.Silver how far does your buddy think he can shoot with an xbow over a regular bow.I say with practice you can easily shoot a compound out to 60 yards with PRACTICE.
    #18
    bingsbaits
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/22 12:33:15 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: chicken27

    NAP xp pro series.I'm not shooting that far free handed that's resting on a quad.I would never recommended shooting that far at a live animal.All the books i been reading latly they say to learn to hit a pie plate at least 40 yards.You guys that hate the x bows you got to remember they lose alot more energy then a compound the farther you shoot them.I say the only difference between an x bow an compound is the amount of practice it takes to be death with one.

     
     
    Totally false, you need to read up on Kinetic Energy and the "NEW crossbows out there...
     
    Here is an excerpt from a a fella that has done the math...
     
    I’ve heard many people state to me on the subject of crossbow performance that a "a crossbow doesn’t carry as far, they drop off faster, they are a hinderance in a treestand, they’re loud, there is no performance advantage vs a compound, the ranges are the same” etc etc so on and so on.

    I have an older PSE Fireflight crossbow downstairs right now with a 125# draw weight with it’s old round wheels that I would ABSOLUTELY classify as accurate based upon the above statements. It’s slow, it’s so loud it should come with ear plugs and my 2009 compound will shoot circles around it IN MY HANDS anyway with respect to performance.
    If I absolutely needed to make a shot at 50 yards with either I wouldn’t even glance at that crossbow. It’s a flat out turd. Advantage compound by a wide margin.
    That turd might also be what many people see a crossbow being nowadays.
    Those people would be wrong.

    Let me throw some raw performance numbers out there for you comparing the highest performance crossbow made today The "Stryker" vs the highest performance compound Bowtech makes right now in the Bowtech 82nd Airborne.

    These are the facts on what a top of the line crossbow of today will do and how it compares to the same top level compound. (Not top vs average or vice versa)

    The Airborne 82nd compound bow out of the box comes factory pre-set at 29” draw length and 70# draw weight and will shoot 312fps with a 425g arrow and a kinetic energy of 92ft lbs. (This number is also before weight is added to the string in the form of peep, nock accessories etc which will lower performance)
    That 29”/70# is also above the industry average bowhunter in North America with respect to draw length and draw weight. 425gr arrow was chosen for comparison with the Stryker.

    The Stryker out of the box with it’s 175# draw weight will throw the same 425gr weight projectile at 405fps for a KE rating of 155ft lbs.

    I ran their ballistics through a program to extrapolate what they would both be doing at those controversial “Impossible” crossbow distances that people talk about for comparison and say they can't or won't do.

    The numbers:Pray my math is correct.

    Bowtech Airborne 82nd (point blank) 29”/70# with a 425gr arrow = 312fps and 92ft lbs of KE
    (By all rights an extremely high performance bow)

    At 90 yards it is doing 284fps and 76ft lbs of KE
    At 100 yards it is at 281fps and 74.6ft lbs of KE.
    Impressive performance to say the least!


    Stryker Crossbow- (point blank) with the same 425gr arrow = 405fps for 155ft lbs of KE
    At 90 yards it is still going 341fps with a KE of 110ft lbs. (at 90 yards it is still 16% more powerful than the compound is at point blank
    At 100 yards it is still going 337.8fps with a KE of 107.6 (at 100 yards the crossbow is still 14% more powerful than the compound at point blank)

    Think about that.

    What does this longwinded nonsense illustrate exactly?
    For one it directly compares the top end offerings in both categories no BS, it's todays best performance in each category. It also dispels the myth that crossbows somehow are “less efficient” or offer no performance advantage over a compound.
    Remember the average bowhunter is shooting a compound bow with far less performance than I illustrated which widens that gap considerably.....anybody can shoot the Stryker with the performance listed.

    Sure there are old style roundwheel crossbows out there, middle of the road crossbows out there, outdated crossbows out there, that performance wise at long range are ballistically even with or below the better of the compounds. That’s a fact. There are JUNK crossbows just like there are junk compounds.
    But to argue a lack of performance advantage for today’s crossbow on top of the obvious pre-****ed one and the use of true optics is being flat out silly.
    Make no mistake about what is available and what is also on the way. Page through a Fall Cabela’s master catalog and look at the pages of crossbows and you’ll quickly see that these aren’t your daddy’s crossbows.
    You let in the bottom end crossbows which in spirit I'm sure many guys are arguing for………you’ve also left in the top end one as well.
    And I’ve shown what that what will do. And they aren’t done yet. There is much more room for advancement in performance on crossbows than there is currently with compounds with an already wide performance gap between the 2.
    You want an eye opener? You guys who THINK you know what the story is with ALL crossbows?
    Get your hands on a Stryker like I illustrated above with its 3 dot scope which can be set for around 60-80-100yards and head to a bench rest and shoot some groups. Bring along a buddy to help pull the bolts if they didn't pass right through your target.
    I can shoot groups at 100 yards right out of the box with the Stryker that I could only DREAM about shooting with a compound and do it with more energy than my bow puts out 2 feet from the bow....... and I’m a National Champion 3D archer.
    I can tell you for a FACT that with a rest I could kill a deer standing still everytime at 100 yards if I had a rangefinder and a Stryker. Would you consider it unethical or irresponsible? It's totally capable of making clean accurate pass through kills to 100 yards with ease. The numbers don't lie.

    Don’t look at the dusty rusty round wheel crossbow in the corner and think you know crossbows……..because you don’t.
    Let one in and you let them ALL in and they will get even better, count on it.

    The crossbow manufacturers don’t see some happy world where crossbows and compounds belong together for some higher good, where we should all sit around a campfire singing pretty songs despite what it could do to our seasons and game management………what they see is the holy grail of crossbow manufacturing and that’s simply Pennsylvania the state. We are nothing more than a huge untapped resource consisting of hundreds of thousands of hunters who know guns, but not bows.


     

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


    #19
    dpms
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/22 12:38:29 (permalink)
    double post.....
    post edited by dpms - 2010/07/22 12:42:46

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    #20
    dpms
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/22 12:40:36 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: chicken27

    They say after 30 yards the bolts drops dramitacly because of how short the bolts are.


    10-15 years ago yes.  Todays equipment is much more effecient with most compounds and crossbows comparing favorably these days at reasonable hunting ranges.  Many crossbow arrows are heavier with brass inserts to increase thier weight forward and downrange energy. 
    post edited by dpms - 2010/07/22 12:41:53

    My rifle is a black rifle
    #21
    Esox_Hunter
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/22 13:16:49 (permalink)
    Well said and very thoroughly covered Bings. I think the myth of better long range energy/momentum for bows has finally been dispelled.

    I didn't realize there was an x-gun shooting 400+ fps, thats insane!
    #22
    chicken27
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/22 13:24:37 (permalink)
    Bings nice read i'm not much for the x bow they don't bug me either way.Why don't you put the price of the stryker up there compare to a excalibur or even a horton that most guy can't afford.I don't know many spots where i hunt where i could even think about 80 to 100 yard shot espically in the rut.My thought about them there heavy big and bulky how do you pull them up the tree?If you guys are worried about x bows taking over i doubt it.If someone just starting hunting archery because of x bow then they'll probably just hunt where they can take long shots and probably won't know much about hunting.One more thing do you actually think someone could hold one free handed and shoot 100 yards maybe a few not many.
    #23
    dpms
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/22 13:57:44 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

    Well said and very thoroughly covered Bings. I think the myth of better long range energy/momentum for bows has finally been dispelled.

    I didn't realize there was an x-gun shooting 400+ fps, thats insane!


    The are several now shooting in excess of 400fps.  The speed craze in crossbows has not caught on as of yet.  Few of these top end bows are in the woods as the price and other factors  keep most from jumping on board.

    Currently the crossbow market is demanding mid range bows in both performance and price.  Most of the manufacturers are actually concentrating their efforts on the lower speeds in thier lineup. 

    300-320 fps seems to be a nice compromise between speed, price, noise and durability with crossbows. 
     
    Excalibur is near the top of the heap as far as units sold.  The average speed of their bows using hunting arrows is about 300fps. 
    post edited by dpms - 2010/07/22 14:09:04

    My rifle is a black rifle
    #24
    bingsbaits
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/22 14:42:31 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: chicken27

    Bings nice read i'm not much for the x bow they don't bug me either way.Why don't you put the price of the stryker up there compare to a excalibur or even a horton that most guy can't afford.I don't know many spots where i hunt where i could even think about 80 to 100 yard shot espically in the rut.My thought about them there heavy big and bulky how do you pull them up the tree?If you guys are worried about x bows taking over i doubt it.If someone just starting hunting archery because of x bow then they'll probably just hunt where they can take long shots and probably won't know much about hunting.One more thing do you actually think someone could hold one free handed and shoot 100 yards maybe a few not many.

     
     
    #1... All my ladder stands came with a GUN rest....
     
    Not saying anything bad about the crossbows or their users..
    Just some raw facts to dispell unfactual info put out there by the crossbow folks...
     
    Luckily there are not that many in the field yet, but as the race for speed from the other manufacturers begins this is where they will be in a couple years at a much better price...
    Stryker is only $1200 out the door ready to shoot..
    My last compound was $800 bare..High end is high end....
    And here you pay for performance.....
     
    There are many scenarios that one could shoot 75 yards at deer if planned for, what about field edges, how bout a ghillie suit and lay down in the field you could cover quite an area..
    On private land one could open up 100 yard shooting lanes just as is done for rifle season, rifles aren't very brush tolerant either but many shots are taken at deer over long uncleaned shooting lanes...
     
    I personally think they could have come to this same conclusion but doing it a little slower over time, mabee a 2 week season to start off, then slowly implimenting a longer season as the resource and yes the hunters dictated.....Running it down our throats the way it was done still leaves a sour taste even if it is good for hunting....

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


    #25
    bulldog1
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/22 15:25:24 (permalink)
    Really they should go back to recurve bows and/or long bows. Hard to argue about "primitive" sport, or people pushing the technology, with the new compounds out there. I know more idiots with compounds than I do with x-bows. People that will attempt 50 yard shots at animals with their compounds, not that the equipment isn't capable of doing the job but when an animals life is involved that long of a shot should be passed on. I really don't see the crossbows changing too much as far as downed animals, they may get a couple of new people involved. BTW, anybody know where I can get an atladl?




    "I personally think they could have come to this same conclusion but doing it a little slower over time, mabee a 2 week season to start off, then slowly implimenting a longer season as the resource and yes the hunters dictated.....Running it down our throats the way it was done still leaves a sour taste even if it is good for hunting...."

    Very good point(s)...
    post edited by bulldog1 - 2010/07/22 15:28:56
    #26
    bingsbaits
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/22 15:29:34 (permalink)
    I think there were some folks that actually petitioned for an Atlatl season... go figure.....                                     
    post edited by bingsbaits - 2010/07/22 20:48:55

    "There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
     
     


    #27
    Pork
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/22 15:30:12 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: bulldog1
    BTW, anybody know where I can get an atladl?


    http://www.atlatls.com/

    ...only because I had to google it to figure out what the heck it was!

    BTW, +1

    "If you ever get hit with a bucket of fish, be sure to close your eyes." ><)))*>
    #28
    S-10
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/22 20:50:00 (permalink)
    Actually Roxanne Palone, the Ex president of the PGC, BOC is on record supporting Atlati's for deer hunting. She reversed course after they made the comedy hour on TV. As for crossguns, sighted in properly, the better ones will shoot a 4" group out to 100 yards with a rest. They are made for shooting from the ground or ladder stand with a rest.
    #29
    MuskyMastr
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    RE: crossbows and the end of the world as we know it. 2010/07/25 13:48:12 (permalink)
    First of all IF they will shoot those types of groups, WITH BROADHEADS, then they need to be removed from archery season immediately. I will not question the ethicallity of anyone's choice of maximum distance with thier weapon, that is up to the individual hunter to decide based on his practice performance.

    I will say that 75-100 yard shots have no business in archery season from any weapon. Not because they can't be made, but because they are not what the season is about.

    Better too far back, than too far forward.
    #30
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