Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution 
wayne c
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/26 22:13:46
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"Currently those levels don't exist, yet you are one who asks legislation to get involved." They have to get involved. They are involved in ANY changes at pgc. Since the very beginning. Cant ignore it. The system is what it is. And nowhere did i ask to go to a dcnr system of management. "Yet, there are better options. Keep spinnin' that. I'll keep laughing." Some like to laugh when nothings funny. I have no problem with overly happy people. But as for spinning, there is no spinning. Maybe you just got up from your chair too fast?
Better option? Some much needed pgc restructuring. Legislators can make it happen and is much easier and more acceptable to most than giving over the reigns to dcnr completely. Why would we need to go to extremes and measures that would create many complications when there are much more simple and effective fixes?
Improvements could be done via many routes (cant get much worse anyway). Politics need to be taken out of the commissioner selection process. Or do away with it all together. Hire a trustworty executive director to run the show that we can agree on and let him do his job running the show without taking your chances on a bunch of people representing god knows what every time a new one is confirmed. More hunter friendly less environut biologists hired on staff.. Was no coindidence that the "team" including some still there were all brought together around the same time....also the same time as the reduction began.
Cant hit on all the fine details without writing a book, but i believe some of the above would be the most important and the rest would most likely fall into place anyway. Though most would be pretty much common sense.
Pgc has many problems. Their relations with hunters would improve, their funding situation would greatly improve both now and into the future, and at least SOME of the politics would be removed since fee increase withholding wouldnt be necessary, they wouldnt regularly be appointing commissioners, and also, legislators just arent gonna mess with an agency that hundreds of thousands of hunters support if they want to stay voted in office.
Notice nowhere did i say "more deer". Thats because if proper management were in place, i have no doubt there would be more where there could and should be more, and still less where needed be. Our deer "problem" currently is a side effect of bigger problems.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/04/26 22:23:17
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SilverKype
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 07:46:51
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
Politics need to be taken out of the commissioner selection process. I did not read any further after this comment. Aren't you the one emailing legislators encouraging them to get involved ?
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SilverKype
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 07:47:16
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Palone says she's primarily a turkey hunter.
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wayne c
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 11:13:17
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"I did not read any further after this comment." Then right there is your problem. Read the rest and you'd understand.
Course i dont believe you anyway. Was kinda a ridiculous claim to make, the likes of which do wonders for a members credibility, knowing full well its there....youve read it. 
post edited by wayne c - 2010/04/27 11:17:39
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wayne c
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 11:21:14
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"Palone says she's primarily a turkey hunter." lol. Yeah she sure is. Primarily she was a environmental extremist, a forester, and professed on her site to "march to a different drummer"...(meaning shes "different") Course we dont need legislators to do anything. We should have everything from hunters to antihunters and circusclowns on our board every few years. Go from a deer behind every tree to 5 dpsm every 15th season...then repeat... Pgc should just be financially forced into the ground because of it at least once a decade... Lets just close our eyes, it'll go away.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/04/27 11:25:58
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SilverKype
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 12:03:19
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
"I did not read any further after this comment."
Then right there is your problem. Read the rest and you'd understand.
Course i dont believe you anyway. Was kinda a ridiculous claim to make, the likes of which do wonders for a members credibility, knowing full well its there....youve read it.
I did actually read the rest. My comment was an attempt to tell you it wasn't worth reading. Keep spinnin' and spinnin' wayne.
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SilverKype
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 12:05:43
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
"Palone says she's primarily a turkey hunter."
lol. Yeah she sure is. Primarily she was a environmental extremist, a forester, and professed on her site to "march to a different drummer"...(meaning shes "different") Course we dont need legislators to do anything. We should have everything from hunters to antihunters and circusclowns on our board every few years. Go from a deer behind every tree to 5 dpsm every 15th season...then repeat... Pgc should just be financially forced into the ground because of it at least once a decade...
Lets just close our eyes, it'll go away.
Do you know Roxane ? Ever talked to her peronally ? Do you really know whether she's a turkey hunter or not ? Quit spewin' yer crap and tell us the truff. LOL !
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wayne c
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 12:36:10
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"Do you know Roxane ?" No but its becoming quite evident that you do. " Ever talked to her peronally ? " She was tighter than 2 coats of paint with audubon and other environut groups screaming for less deer. She tried to have another commissioner removed from president because he didnt agree with her views. She was an antideer forester. She said Pa hunters were nothing but "big crybabies". She has a website blog called "skunk in the woodpile" where she refers to herself as "THE DOG"...Her husband as "THE SKUNK"...and partner blogger Bob Frye is "THE CROW"...Partnered up with roxy on an enviromentalist blog...gee is anyone surprised his deer management articles have always been so one sided--pro pgc. Now having said all that (and more) do you think i WANT to know her personally or talk to her? "Do you really know whether she's a turkey hunter or not ?" Frankly i dont care and never said she was or wasnt. Her overriding priorities were what mattered in her stint as commissioner.
Now can this get back on topic...
post edited by wayne c - 2010/04/27 12:38:15
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S-10
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 12:40:39
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She had this to say about some of my hunting areas--------Palone concedes there are fewer deer in the northern counties -- a common hunter complaint -- but said habitat needs to be regenerated with soil amendments and plantings.)
She was saying this at the same time both the DCNR and PGC were saying neither liming or fertlizing or tree planting was necessary or being done. I wonder just when she thought it was going to happen her being the former top dog on the BOC and all and nothing happening then. She did manage to get the PGC on comedy hour on television with her support of the deer season for the spear chuckers. I guess that's her legecy.
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SilverKype
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 13:00:59
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
Frankly i dont care and never said she was or wasnt.
You said "Yeah sure she is." Quite a reference to use... ..until you get called out.
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SilverKype
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 13:13:01
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
Pgc has many problems. Their relations with hunters would improve, their funding situation would greatly improve both now and into the future, and at least SOME of the politics would be removed since fee increase withholding wouldnt be necessary, they wouldnt regularly be appointing commissioners, and also, legislators just arent gonna mess with an agency that hundreds of thousands of hunters support if they want to stay voted in office.
Are you involved ? If not, why don't you get involved ? (blabbin' on a website doesn't count). If you think your thoughts offer value, perhaps you should consider running for executive director of the PGC ? How about BOC ?
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tippecanoe
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 13:18:46
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ORIGINAL: SilverKype
Do you know Roxane ? Ever talked to her personally ? Do you really know whether she's a turkey hunter or not ? Quit spewin' yer crap and tell us the truff. LOL !
Yes, I've talked to her dozens of times. Her husband had a plane in one of our hangers.  She was always quite pleasant(4-8 years ago). I don't really know anything about her stand on any issues however. Generally speaking, I don't think what the commissioners have done regulation-wise has been exceptionally good, from what I can gather from you folks and your current deer hunting woes. But they didn't shoot all the does off, they just sold the tags. The way I look at it, and it may be way, way off base, but lowering the number of tags available is the only real way to slow down the harvest. I can't see the whole 2 week thing mattering much. I mean, pretty much anyone can go out and shoot a doe in 3 days with a high powered rifle, it doesn't take 12 days of hard hunting to kill a doe.
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DarDys
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 13:27:18
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ORIGINAL: SilverKype
ORIGINAL: wayne c
Pgc has many problems. Their relations with hunters would improve, their funding situation would greatly improve both now and into the future, and at least SOME of the politics would be removed since fee increase withholding wouldnt be necessary, they wouldnt regularly be appointing commissioners, and also, legislators just arent gonna mess with an agency that hundreds of thousands of hunters support if they want to stay voted in office.
Are you involved ? If not, why don't you get involved ? (blabbin' on a website doesn't count). If you think your thoughts offer value, perhaps you should consider running for executive director of the PGC ? How about BOC ?
I actually interviewed for our District for the PFBC when it was open. They were interviewing for the PGC BOC opening at the same place, so I asked if I should stick around for that because I was also interested in serving in that voluntary capacity and was flattly told by the governor's rep -- No, we are selecting a BOC member that will be completely on board with what we want to do with the new (at the time) deer program and believe that you would ask questions and raise issues about the program that we don't want asked or raised because it might hamper what we and Dr. Alt are trying to do. So, you finally got it out of me how I had just a wee bit more information than most on the subject. Being in phone and personal contact about once per week with those on both the PFBC and PGC selection committees for more than a year will do that.
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SilverKype
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 13:31:31
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Shawn
You told me that some time ago. You an official ol' fart ? Now yer just tellin' the rest of the viewers.
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DarDys
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 15:18:31
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ORIGINAL: SilverKype
Shawn
You told me that some time ago. You an official ol' fart ? Now yer just tellin' the rest of the viewers.
Its Sometimers. Sometimers I remember, Sometimers I don't.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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wayne c
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 17:01:22
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"You said "Yeah sure she is." Quite a reference to use..." Nice partial quote intended to decieve there silver. What i said was "Yeah she sure is. Primarily she was a environmental extremist, a forester, and professed on her site to "march to a different drummer"...
But hey, dont let truth get in the way of your argument. "..until you get called out"
Lemme know when that happens. I have yet to see it.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/04/27 17:04:20
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wayne c
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 17:09:25
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"Are you involved ?" yep. "(blabbin' on a website doesn't count)" Not what i was talking about, but that doesnt hurt either. People who matter read message boards too. There are also others that know this who try to do a heckuva lot of damage control. "If you think your thoughts offer value, perhaps you should consider running for executive director of the PGC ?" Couldnt do worse than the current guy in charge now could i? Last i checked he wasnt volunteering to step down, and even though its deserved, ive heard of no plans for his firing. " How about BOC ?" Governor wouldnt hear of it. Im not anti-deer. One doesnt just decide to gain a seat on the boc and then get it because they want it. There are also no current seats available. You must also live in the unit if i recall correctly. So when several years down the road, mine comes open, remind me then.
Till then i guess i'll exercise my only option. Keeping an open dialogue with legislators and encourage others to do the same.
post edited by wayne c - 2010/04/27 17:13:35
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Ironhed
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 20:05:19
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She said Pa hunters were nothing but "big crybabies". All said and done...there is some truth to that statement. Ironhed
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MuskyMastr
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 20:48:49
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ORIGINAL: Ironhed
She said Pa hunters were nothing but "big crybabies".
All said and done...there is some truth to that statement.
Ironhed
And true or not it is her job to cater to, or at least listen to; not chastise those hunters. Thank god she is gone. The BOC has moved on and at least is listening now, will they make mistakes, yes but they are at least giving some weight to those who they primarily serve. (yes I know all the constitutional mandate garbage they now regurgitate), but in the end, those who provide the money that makes payroll are the ones who should be in charge.
Better too far back, than too far forward.
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wayne c
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 21:44:21
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I can take good natured ribbing, and even a fair amount of critisism, but a person in that position has no business making those comments. Though its far from the worst that she'd done to the hunters of this state, its just one of her lesser "highlights". Here is one of the more notable of the many: http://www.samrohrer.com/NewsItem.aspx?NewsID=3662
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Ironhed
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/27 22:16:59
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True... and like I said, "all said and done."
Ironhed
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DarDys
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/28 07:52:09
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"But they didn't shoot all the does off, they just sold the tags"
As stated before, this is a non-argument. They sell the number of tags needed to get the job done because they know that if they in therir position as experts say this number of deer need harvested, the hunters will be the instrument to do so. And if some are unwilling, others will step up to do it. It is simple human nature to take until there is no more. Its called scarcity mentality.
One a slighty different twist of that same idea, I stopped at a local farm market the other day. There is a small, you-can-whizz-across it stocked trout stream that runs along the parking lot. When I was there the Sunday ofter the opening day of trout, about a half dozen anglers were fishing the area. One had 4 trout on the stringer and another had 5 trout and 3 suckers including one that was about 20 inches (no, it wasn't Drake, he is strickly a C & R sucker guy). They appeared to be together. I told the one with the suckers that that one was pretty big. The I asked if they were very good to eat. He said he didn't know, but and here is the quote -- "If I catch 'em, I keep 'em."
Flash forward to my recent visit to the market. As a course of habit, I walked over to the stream to see if I could spot any trout. There were two swimming around in a pool that is about 75 feet long. As I was about to leave, in pulls, you guessed it, the same two guys. I waved at them and said that i only saw two trout there. The answer was "Yeah, we know. We have been taking a limit here every day since the first day and still need to get those two. Then we are going to Popular run because they are stocking this afternoon."
Later that day, I happened to drive past Popular Run (another spit across it creek -- maybe the same one, I don't know) on my way somewhere and indeed there was the stocking truck. In the line of cars parked behind it was the vehicle of the farm market fishermen. While others appeared to be helping stock it, these guys were fishing right where the fish were being dumped in.
That was last Thursday. Yesterday evening my travels again took me along Popular Run and lo and behold, the same vehicle was parked along the creek.
So, if the tags are out there, and the PGC is the one that puts them there, they will always have someone like these guys that would kill every last deer just because they could. And they know it.
"I mean, pretty much anyone can go out and shoot a doe in 3 days with a high powered rifle, it doesn't take 12 days of hard hunting to kill a doe."
Really? I guess that is why the hunter success rate is near 100%. Oh, wait, its about 20%. That means that 80% failed to do so. So I guess its not as easy as falling off a log, and it never was, even during the population boom years. In addition, it must be remembered that just because there are a certain number of days in a season that all those days are hunted. The typical PA deer hunter (defined as the 70% that rifle hunt only) hunt 2 - 4 days of those 12 available days.
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tippecanoe
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/28 09:02:20
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DD,
That is an interesting point about human nature, but it still doesn't make it right to do. I will take your word for it as fact, because I dropped my sociology class in college; the teacher was a raging feminazi. Is that something that has been observed since the beginning, or is it something that can be changed? I think Henhouse once stated it to be a "Hillbilly Mentality," and that is a mixture between sad and horrible, although obviously true. So the argument is that the PGC will assume that these folks will shoot whatever they are allowed to shoot, and the PGC knows this, and issues 5 times the number of tags it would take to lower the doe population to whatever number the "biologist" suggested to them? That makes sense, and I will buy it 100 percent at face value. It still doesn't make it right, and the hunters, and their scarcity mentality are equally to blame in my book. But as a child my mother taught me right from wrong, so I can't give them all the blame for something that just comes to them naturally.
Now 20 percent success rate? How in the world is that possible? I again will believe you, you seem to have your crap straight. That is a statistic that really blows my mind. Are there that many city people out hunting that spend one day a year in the woods? I still believe that killing a doe with a high powered rifle can't be that much harder than falling off a log, if you have a CLUE about what to do. Even in the year or two imediately following the EHD, I would be willing to bet I(or you, or anyone else who has handled a rifle since last opening day) could have killed a doe in an afternoon of sitting in a tree, much less hunting hard for 4 days. Do you think that it could possibly be due to some other factors? I.E. less time afield per hunter, legeions of inexperienced hunters, lack of public land to spread these people out on, etc.
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S-10
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/28 09:34:09
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I'll take a crack at that one if you don't mind. The 20% success is correct and always has been. It's the old adage that 10% of the fishermen/hunters get 90% of the fish/game. They are the ones who spend the necessary time scouting and learning the sport. The 90% are the casual hunters that like to go out a few times a year and are happy to see some game and take some from time to time. The problem is they are the ones who's money makes it possible for the agencies to exist and are the first ones to leave the sport when they no longer feel they have a reasonable chance of success for the amount of time or desire they have or are willing to put in.
On the other topic, man by nature has proven over time to exploit the resources, be it lumber, minerals or game. The PGC was established enforce laws to protect the wildlife from overhunting. Some now say they are promoting the overkill of deer rather than preventing it. It is their job to set the limits of kill and no one is to blame but them if overkill happens.
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DarDys
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/28 10:21:43
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ORIGINAL: tippecanoe
DD,
That is an interesting point about human nature, but it still doesn't make it right to do. I will take your word for it as fact, because I dropped my sociology class in college; the teacher was a raging feminazi. Is that something that has been observed since the beginning, or is it something that can be changed? I think Henhouse once stated it to be a "Hillbilly Mentality," and that is a mixture between sad and horrible, although obviously true. So the argument is that the PGC will assume that these folks will shoot whatever they are allowed to shoot, and the PGC knows this, and issues 5 times the number of tags it would take to lower the doe population to whatever number the "biologist" suggested to them? That makes sense, and I will buy it 100 percent at face value. It still doesn't make it right, and the hunters, and their scarcity mentality are equally to blame in my book. But as a child my mother taught me right from wrong, so I can't give them all the blame for something that just comes to them naturally.
Now 20 percent success rate? How in the world is that possible? I again will believe you, you seem to have your crap straight. That is a statistic that really blows my mind. Are there that many city people out hunting that spend one day a year in the woods? I still believe that killing a doe with a high powered rifle can't be that much harder than falling off a log, if you have a CLUE about what to do. Even in the year or two imediately following the EHD, I would be willing to bet I(or you, or anyone else who has handled a rifle since last opening day) could have killed a doe in an afternoon of sitting in a tree, much less hunting hard for 4 days. Do you think that it could possibly be due to some other factors? I.E. less time afield per hunter, legeions of inexperienced hunters, lack of public land to spread these people out on, etc.
I believe S-10 beat me to the answer.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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SilverKype
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/28 11:48:06
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ORIGINAL: wayne c
"Are you involved ?"
yep.
"(blabbin' on a website doesn't count)"
Not what i was talking about, but that doesnt hurt either. People who matter read message boards too. There are also others that know this who try to do a heckuva lot of damage control.
"If you think your thoughts offer value, perhaps you should consider running for executive director of the PGC ?"
Couldnt do worse than the current guy in charge now could i? Last i checked he wasnt volunteering to step down, and even though its deserved, ive heard of no plans for his firing.
" How about BOC ?"
Governor wouldnt hear of it. Im not anti-deer. One doesnt just decide to gain a seat on the boc and then get it because they want it. There are also no current seats available. You must also live in the unit if i recall correctly. So when several years down the road, mine comes open, remind me then.
Till then i guess i'll exercise my only option. Keeping an open dialogue with legislators and encourage others to do the same.
How are you involved Wayne ? You have to be anti-deer to seat on the BOC ? LAUGH ! !
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MuskyMastr
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/28 11:54:54
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Tippe,
Between myself, my father, my brother and my uncle. We hunted the first two days on from daylight to dark, in different spots covering the best scouted spots for deer sign on a piece of private land open to the public and adversized by DMAP as such.
Between the four of us, two or three years ago, in a combined 80 hours hunting on the first two days we saw a combined total of 2 deer at 4:50 on the second day.
Areas like that are recieving tooo many tags.
Better too far back, than too far forward.
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SilverKype
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/28 12:15:47
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So when we talk "success" rate, we talk 20%. (success is low so hunters are going to quit)
But when we talk harvest rate, we talk about the 40% that butcher their own deer. (PA harvest more than that, the PGC is lying, cause 40% cut up their own deer).
It's always one side of the coin. I ain't sayin' the pgc is perfect, very far from it, but the separation of the PA hunter and the pgc isn't good for hunting in general. I know, I know it's all the pgc's fault. Never the hunters.
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SilverKype
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/28 12:21:44
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ORIGINAL: MuskyMastr
Tippe,
Between myself, my father, my brother and my uncle. We hunted the first two days on from daylight to dark, in different spots covering the best scouted spots for deer sign on a piece of private land open to the public and adversized by DMAP as such.
Between the four of us, two or three years ago, in a combined 80 hours hunting on the first two days we saw a combined total of 2 deer at 4:50 on the second day.
Areas like that are recieving tooo many tags.
I can tell one side of the story too MM. I did not see a single deer the first day of rifle last year. Heavily populated area. What does that tell you, other than the fact that I didn't see a single deer ? Does it say there's no deer there ? To the negative mind, it sure does. Wanna hear the other side ? There was shooting like crazy to the right & below me. And a guy coughing his lungs out and on his cellphone most of the day, right below me.. I can't disagree that too many tags are allocated for some areas. But I do know the anti-PGC guys on this website and how they tell THEIR half of the story.
post edited by SilverKype - 2010/04/28 12:22:32
My reports and advice are for everyone to enjoy, not just the paying customers.
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wayne c
Pro Angler
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RE: Kasunic Antlerless Deer Season Resolution
2010/04/28 16:33:24
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"but the separation of the PA hunter and the pgc isn't good for hunting in general." I agree. " I know, I know it's all the pgc's fault. Never the hunters." I also agree. Ridiculous obtuse goals. Criteria set by nuts from enviro groups like audubon and having close alliances with them over hunters. Constant condescention towards hunters. Way too many tags for way too long. Constant ignoring of hunters for last decade. Running themselves financially down the toilet due to decision making. Sorry bud. None of it the fault of hunters. Only thing i see hunters being guilty of is refusing to bend over on pgcs command.
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