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Screamin Steel
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2009/08/10 16:55:48 (permalink)

float fishing

Any of you other float fishers use a shotline rigging of sorts on the tribs? I haven't played around much with the concept on my noodle, usually the low conditions don't seem to warrant it, and I don't want to put anything on my line to attract unwanted attention to it (by the fish) other than one or two tiny shot if needed to get my bait down under my float. I'm talking about the use by pin fishermen of a string of shot progressively smaller and beginning right under the float that is supposed to slow the float just enough to keep it directly above or behind the bait, countering the effects of the faster speed of the surface water. I usually use about the smallest wood (Thill) floats I can find and adding any extra weight will tend to put 'em down. I like the concept but would it (does it) work on the small floats we usually use on the tribs?
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    jimhalupka
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 17:04:51 (permalink)
    you just have to use the proper technique in the water situation.  I used this site to learn shotting for the pin:

    http://www.fishonlineca.com/Float-Fishing/Float-Fishing-Techniques/Shotting-Patterns.html
     
    I use sheffield clear glass floats, but long skinny balsa seems needed when the flow is minimal
     
    3.5 g for moderate flow
    4.0 + for heavy
    2.0 for lower conditions
    post edited by jimhalupka - 2009/08/10 17:08:33

    "Sure, we can assiduously three-quarter our wets downstream, mend and wait out each fly swing, over and over again, which to my way of thinking, anyway, relegates the angler to the role, not of nemesis as it should be, but of butler."

    -Art Lee
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    ShutUpNFish
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 20:13:25 (permalink)
    Its truely an art if you ask me, and mastered through trial and error no doubt.  My shotline typically varies depending on the flow of the stream I'm fishing.  I usually use 3 & 4 sz. BB shot all the way down to sz. 8 min.  Always tapered from top to bottom in size of shot and spacing.  Simply because I want to slow that float down keeping it behind my presentation (thats the key), so more weight and closer together the closer to your float.  I know guys who use a specific shotline between the mainline and leader, but IMO, I think its overkill really.  On the Erie tribs, the most shot I've ever used was 10 and usually never less than 5 or 6.  I'm not afraid of throwing a few shot down onto my leader either which seems to be a cardinal sin to some die-hard pinners.  Of course, most of my heavier shot goes onto the mainline down to my swivel, but I do throw a few below but never less than 12" from my presentation.  Thats my own general rule and it has worked great for me so far whether using a pin or spinning/noodle rod outfit.  Also, they say 18" is all the length you need for leader, but I like to throw on about 24" since you catch and release so many in Erie that you'll find yourself constantly retying or cutting back freyed line fish after fish.  Therefore, you almost have to have some weight down on your leader material.  A little tip though...once you put the weight on, DO NOT slide it up or down your leader or it WILL frey, I found out the hard way, losing a big fish a few years back!

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    Screamin Steel
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 20:33:48 (permalink)
    Are you using larger floats? I always followed the mantra of small as possible...from  my line, my hooks, minimal weight, and the smallest floats I could find. Couldn't help but think though, that I'd up my catch rate by slowing my float letting the bait get ahead of it. Everything I've ever read about centerpin/ float fishing made sense to me as I've been using my bastardized method on trout for years...but with no real science...just using the float to get my drift but no more thought about it. Seems most other anglers on the tribs were doing it much like me...but using a shot pattern has got to be more effective. Still seems to me like putting more shot on the line and using a larger float would spook fish, though. And a swivel? I figured most would use a uni knot as less visible.
    post edited by Screamin Steel - 2009/08/10 20:35:02
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    papinner
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 20:36:38 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Screamin Steel

    Still seems to me like putting more shot on the line and using a larger float would spook fish, though.


    I use to think the same thing until I fished with another board member that had on a 7 gram float fishing faster water and I had a 3.5 on and he smoked me in the same run. Needless to say I bought some larger floats after that. The thing is you have to be willing to change with the conditions I usually use a 5 gram raven float. Use to use those shefields and blackbirds but they break pretty easily. Although I've also fished with another guy that used the small wooden floats and he did alright in clear water but it seemed like the fish didnt mind my larger float its more about your presentation so dont be afraid of the bigger floats they come in real handy quite often. Goodluck with all that there are a ton of different types and styles of floats so it can get expensive in a hurry.
    post edited by papinner - 2009/08/10 20:42:40
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    Carphead
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 20:46:39 (permalink)
    Shotting your line according to water conditions is important, but so is float design/size.
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    ShutUpNFish
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 22:11:18 (permalink)
    The float you use in certain situations is a whole other thing.  If I'm fishing a single egg under a float, I like to use a drennan 2 1/2 AA Bobber or 2 1/2 Swan Bobber...they are green and seem to blend right in with the water.  Otherwise, its all Ravens in various weights for me....the size of the float is not as important as being able to handle the weight you are using vs. the flow of water.  As for the swivels, I don't use a brass eagle claw swivel either...its usually a small blackbird swivel which eliminates line twist.  Otherwise I'd use a uni to uni, but after a couple of fish with the uni to uni, your line is sure to twist up like crazy.  If you're shotting your rig properly, you should not have to worry about the size of your float because the presentation WILL be the first thing the fish will see and thats all that really matters.
    post edited by ShutUpNFish - 2009/08/10 22:12:32

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    Carphead
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 22:59:46 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: ShutUpNFish

    The float you use in certain situations is a whole other thing.  If I'm fishing a single egg under a float, I like to use a drennan 2 1/2 AA Bobber or 2 1/2 Swan Bobber...they are green and seem to blend right in with the water.  Otherwise, its all Ravens in various weights for me....the size of the float is not as important as being able to handle the weight you are using vs. the flow of water.  As for the swivels, I don't use a brass eagle claw swivel either...its usually a small blackbird swivel which eliminates line twist.  Otherwise I'd use a uni to uni, but after a couple of fish with the uni to uni, your line is sure to twist up like crazy.  If you're shotting your rig properly, you should not have to worry about the size of your float because the presentation WILL be the first thing the fish will see and thats all that really matters.


    Definately some truth behind your post, but consider this.
    You want your float riding as low in the water as you can without it going under because its less resistance for the fish to feel, right?

    If you are fishing a stretch of water that is fairly slow and fairly clear, why use a 7g. float(just a random number), if you can achieve the same result, with a 2g. float? Obviously you can get that 2g float and your presentation to ride where you want it in the water with less shot bulking up the line. Unless of course you are drifting something that is too heavy for that size float to support to begin with.

    So really your right that shotting your rig is what matters, but you can'talways shot your line properly with the wrong float. For example, if your fishing a hole 8ft. deep in fast turbulent water, you sure as hell can't shot your line properly with a 1-2g float in my opinion.

    Also some shapes/designs ride better in different waters, ie: riffles, fast water, or frog water, etc........
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    jimhalupka
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 23:03:55 (permalink)
    this also why you can't just taper shot down in size and have it the same distance apart down your mainline and leader.
     
    there are times where you should accelerate shot, taper, bulk...etc.
     
    all have their time and place... the site I provided breaks this whole conversation down, with the exception of floats.

    "Sure, we can assiduously three-quarter our wets downstream, mend and wait out each fly swing, over and over again, which to my way of thinking, anyway, relegates the angler to the role, not of nemesis as it should be, but of butler."

    -Art Lee
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    Carphead
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 23:09:36 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: jimhalupka

    this also why you can't just taper shot down in size and have it the same distance apart down your mainline and leader.

    there are times where you should accelerate shot, taper, bulk...etc.

    all have their time and place... the site I provided breaks this whole conversation down, with the exception of floats.


    Another good point.

    Well said..............wish I could explain things that easy.
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    ShutUpNFish
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 23:09:44 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Carphead


    ORIGINAL: ShutUpNFish

    The float you use in certain situations is a whole other thing.  If I'm fishing a single egg under a float, I like to use a drennan 2 1/2 AA Bobber or 2 1/2 Swan Bobber...they are green and seem to blend right in with the water.  Otherwise, its all Ravens in various weights for me....the size of the float is not as important as being able to handle the weight you are using vs. the flow of water.  As for the swivels, I don't use a brass eagle claw swivel either...its usually a small blackbird swivel which eliminates line twist.  Otherwise I'd use a uni to uni, but after a couple of fish with the uni to uni, your line is sure to twist up like crazy.  If you're shotting your rig properly, you should not have to worry about the size of your float because the presentation WILL be the first thing the fish will see and thats all that really matters.


    Definately some truth behind your post, but consider this.
    You want your float riding as low in the water as you can without it going under because its less resistance for the fish to feel, right?

    If you are fishing a stretch of water that is fairly slow and fairly clear, why use a 7g. float(just a random number), if you can achieve the same result, with a 2g. float? Obviously you can get that 2g float and your presentation to ride where you want it in the water with less shot bulking up the line. Unless of course you are drifting something that is too heavy for that size float to support to begin with.

    So really your right that shotting your rig is what matters, but you can'talways shot your line properly with the wrong float. For example, if your fishing a hole 8ft. deep in fast turbulent water, you sure as hell can't shot your line properly with a 1-2g float in my opinion.

    Also some shapes/designs ride better in different waters, ie: riffles, fast water, or frog water, etc........


    Absolutely true....but it ALL begins with the total weigh of your rig before the float.  ALL relevant to the flow, depth and clarity.  If the water is slow and clear, I'd naturally need less weight to drift my presentation, hence a smaller float.  But sometimes a bigger float will allow you to get a longer cast, on bigger water, still allowing you to have less stuff under it but just enough to keep it ahead of the float.  I agree with different float styles for different currents, but I found the Raven to be the best all around float for me.  And don't forget NOT to give these fish more credit than they deserve....they are NOT that smart!  Remember, its not about the fish, but rather maintaining the most natural drift.

    ps - You rarely need accelerated shot on any Erie tributary.  But, yes, it has its time and place.
    post edited by ShutUpNFish - 2009/08/10 23:17:36

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    Carphead
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 23:16:37 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: ShutUpNFish

    ORIGINAL: Carphead


    ORIGINAL: ShutUpNFish

    The float you use in certain situations is a whole other thing.  If I'm fishing a single egg under a float, I like to use a drennan 2 1/2 AA Bobber or 2 1/2 Swan Bobber...they are green and seem to blend right in with the water.  Otherwise, its all Ravens in various weights for me....the size of the float is not as important as being able to handle the weight you are using vs. the flow of water.  As for the swivels, I don't use a brass eagle claw swivel either...its usually a small blackbird swivel which eliminates line twist.  Otherwise I'd use a uni to uni, but after a couple of fish with the uni to uni, your line is sure to twist up like crazy.  If you're shotting your rig properly, you should not have to worry about the size of your float because the presentation WILL be the first thing the fish will see and thats all that really matters.


    Definately some truth behind your post, but consider this.
    You want your float riding as low in the water as you can without it going under because its less resistance for the fish to feel, right?

    If you are fishing a stretch of water that is fairly slow and fairly clear, why use a 7g. float(just a random number), if you can achieve the same result, with a 2g. float? Obviously you can get that 2g float and your presentation to ride where you want it in the water with less shot bulking up the line. Unless of course you are drifting something that is too heavy for that size float to support to begin with.

    So really your right that shotting your rig is what matters, but you can'talways shot your line properly with the wrong float. For example, if your fishing a hole 8ft. deep in fast turbulent water, you sure as hell can't shot your line properly with a 1-2g float in my opinion.

    Also some shapes/designs ride better in different waters, ie: riffles, fast water, or frog water, etc........


    Absolutely true....but it ALL begins with the total weigh of your rig before the float.  ALL relevant to the flow, depth and clarity.  If the water is slow and clear, I'd naturally need less weight to drift my presentation, hence a smaller float.  But sometimes a bigger float will allow you to get a longer cast, on bigger water, still allowing you to have less stuff under it.  I agree with different float styles for different currents, but I found the Raven to be the best all around float for me.  And don't forget NOT to give these fish more credit than they deserve....they are NOT that smart!


    Agreed that people sometimes make them out to be smarter than they really are. However, you can't expect to chuck any old setup of float, shot, and presentation at them and think you will have good success, because quote.."they are not that smart".

    They may just be dumb fish, but they sure aint blind or oblivious to their surroundings.
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    jimhalupka
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 23:26:46 (permalink)

    ps - You rarely need accelerated shot on any Erie tributary.  But, yes, it has its time and place.

     
    I disagree... accelerated shotting is still a taper, but just a different style. 
     
    saying this also implies that bulk shotting is not needed, which is def. a must in deep, fast water.
     
    You may do well in all types of flow, I don't doubt your terminal rigging style and its success, but hey, why not have an assortment of tricks in the bag?  It's like fishing nypmhs with an indicator.  When it comes time to take it off, the skill needed to fish naked isn't refined enough.  This is why I would say if you're learning how to float fish, or any style of fishing at that, learn it all, not just one specific way.

    "Sure, we can assiduously three-quarter our wets downstream, mend and wait out each fly swing, over and over again, which to my way of thinking, anyway, relegates the angler to the role, not of nemesis as it should be, but of butler."

    -Art Lee
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    ShutUpNFish
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 23:28:14 (permalink)
    "They may just be dumb fish, but they sure aint blind or oblivious to their surroundings." 
     
    IMHO, the difference between catching just a few and catching many is fishermen who are oblivious to their surroundings.  Its kind of blunt, but really true if you break it down.  Paying attention to what works and what doesn't then tweeking your approach to make you better at whatever it is your trying to do.  It pretty much applies in any aspect of catching or killing game.  You must apply yourself to adjust to what is presented to you in order to be successful at achieving your goal.  I guess it all begins with that...deciding what your goal is...for some it is having a relaxing day on the water, others catching the biggest fish.  For me its catching as many as I can in as much time as I have on the water.

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    ShutUpNFish
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 23:36:49 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: jimhalupka


    ps - You rarely need accelerated shot on any Erie tributary.  But, yes, it has its time and place.


    I disagree... accelerated shotting is still a taper, but just a different style. 

    saying this also implies that bulk shotting is not needed, which is def. a must in deep, fast water.

    You may do well in all types of flow, I don't doubt your terminal rigging style and its success, but hey, why not have an assortment of tricks in the bag?  It's like fishing nypmhs with an indicator.  When it comes time to take it off, the skill needed to fish naked isn't refined enough.  This is why I would say if you're learning how to float fish, or any style of fishing at that, learn it all, not just one specific way.


    Accelerated shotting applies best for faster runs/deeper pools which you'd rarely find in Erie was simply my point.  Not that I'd NEVER used it....with that being said, a prime place for this to be used effectively would be somewhere such as Devil's Hole on the Niagara where you're trying to get that bait down quicker on water with a fast flow of water.  As far as I'm concerned, pretty obsolete on creeks like Elk or Walnut, the largest of the Erie PA tribs.
    post edited by ShutUpNFish - 2009/08/10 23:37:34

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    jimhalupka
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 23:41:39 (permalink)
    point taken

    "Sure, we can assiduously three-quarter our wets downstream, mend and wait out each fly swing, over and over again, which to my way of thinking, anyway, relegates the angler to the role, not of nemesis as it should be, but of butler."

    -Art Lee
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    Carphead
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 23:42:16 (permalink)
    Don't any of the tribs in Erie obtain a high and fast flow at some point in the year? I think there has been many days the tribs were flowing pretty dang good.
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    jimhalupka
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 23:44:11 (permalink)
    I use bulk and accelerated shotting when the water is high and off color here in Indiana County in the winter, I'm sure it could be used in Erie, but generally speaking, it's not needed, but for a beginner, I think stating it does not have its place puts it on the backburner, only leading to frustrations on bigger water.

    "Sure, we can assiduously three-quarter our wets downstream, mend and wait out each fly swing, over and over again, which to my way of thinking, anyway, relegates the angler to the role, not of nemesis as it should be, but of butler."

    -Art Lee
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    Carphead
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 23:54:56 (permalink)
    I think it can be quite useful in fast water, not just deep water. Especially when the length of your drift is limited to a small space. Obviously though its not needed in fast shallow water, but certainly can be proven useful in fast water with a moderate to deep depth. My idea of moderate and deep may differ from yours though.
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    ShutUpNFish
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 23:56:16 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Carphead

    Don't any of the tribs in Erie obtain a high and fast flow at some point in the year? I think there has been many days the tribs were flowing pretty dang good.

     
    Of course they do, but when the water gets high and fast in Erie, its usually due to large amounts of rain or melt off thus usually making it next to un-fishable.  We're talking about small creeks here that are not typically at a high rate of flow or anywhere near it when fishing is prime.  There are river out there which flow rates are 10 times higher than the ones in PA when the water is clear as a bell and fishing is prime.  Salmon River, Niagara River, Grand River, Rocky River, etc.  All I'm saying is that as long as the streams in Erie are fishable, my shotting pattern usually will not change.  The only thing that changes is the amount of shot I use or the presentaion that I use.

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    jimhalupka
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/10 23:57:43 (permalink)
    Do you pin for carp?  I have the itch for this, but my experience with carp is limited to spin fishing... Have yet to take one on the fly or pin.

    "Sure, we can assiduously three-quarter our wets downstream, mend and wait out each fly swing, over and over again, which to my way of thinking, anyway, relegates the angler to the role, not of nemesis as it should be, but of butler."

    -Art Lee
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    rapala11
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/11 00:02:06 (permalink)
    great thread guys, keep it going.  a lot of us are learning.

    Joined: 10/8/2003


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    Carphead
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/11 00:03:56 (permalink)
    I'd rather pin for carp and cats than steelhead any day of the week. Carp on the pin are a blast and good practice for begginers(not saying you are a begginer) because they teach you how to fight a hard running fish using only your finger or palm as a drag. Do you want to fish for carp the traditional way, or just on the bottom, or under a still float? Many ways to go about it.
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/11 00:05:18 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: rapala11

    great thread guys, keep it going.  a lot of us are learning.


    You beat me to it Rap. This thread hasn't drifted yet.......hopefully it stays that way.
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    ShutUpNFish
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/11 00:08:51 (permalink)
    Carp,
     
    Where are you from?  Just got my new custom pin rod in the mail today and I'd love to test it out on a carp or two!

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    jimhalupka
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/11 00:10:45 (permalink)
    under the float for sure... I just don't understand it with a drift because the majority of carp I've caught have been off an anchor on the bottom.
     
    I was luckily enough to learn how to pin at a trout club with some big fish, and oddly, my first time ever on the water with a pin was at erie and I had a phenomimal day after I figured out the casting aspect.
     
    I also started with a 9'6 and wish I would have had some extra length, it's so much easier to cast with anything over 10', but more than 13' is overkill in pa if you ask me.
     
     

    "Sure, we can assiduously three-quarter our wets downstream, mend and wait out each fly swing, over and over again, which to my way of thinking, anyway, relegates the angler to the role, not of nemesis as it should be, but of butler."

    -Art Lee
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    jimhalupka
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/11 00:15:35 (permalink)
    shutup... what did you get?? I'm in the market for a new float rod myself, but after the cash dent from the flyrod Loomis built me, I'm hurting.

    "Sure, we can assiduously three-quarter our wets downstream, mend and wait out each fly swing, over and over again, which to my way of thinking, anyway, relegates the angler to the role, not of nemesis as it should be, but of butler."

    -Art Lee
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/11 00:18:28 (permalink)
    Paul, I'm about 30 min north west of Pittsburgh. Try any of the rivers, there are more than enough carp to go around.

    Jim, do you want to fish artifical or doughballs/boilies? If your pinning for carp from a boat anything over 10' can be a pain to land fish on your own. From shore I go with the longest rod I can get away with. The longer the rod, the easier it is to keep the line off the water..........I know, I know,....way to state the obvious.

    You can pin for carp with a float and still fish bottom. You just rig it so the offering is touching bottom and the float will lay on its side. When the float sits upright or submerges the fish has taken your bait.
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    ShutUpNFish
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/11 00:18:33 (permalink)
    13' Rainshadow IST
     
    I'm also NW of the burgh....What rivers do you fish?  Theres a small creek with tons of nice carp i it by me, Slippery Rock and Connequenesing.  I'd love to give this a try, but have not had the time.  Lets give it a try.
    post edited by ShutUpNFish - 2009/08/11 00:22:27

    #29
    Carphead
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    RE: float fishing 2009/08/11 00:20:34 (permalink)
    Those rainshadows are supposed to be nice blanks. Whats the line rating? Three piece?
    #30
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