Some thoughts on the PFBC guide license program

As most of you know, the fish and boat commission implemented a charter boat and fishing guide program 2 years ago. This program requires anyone who wishes to be a fishing guide to pay $100 (resident) and $400 (non resident). Applicants also have to provide proof of insurance, and cpr/first aid certification. I feel this is a good thing for obvious reasons.
 
However, this program that the PFBC is making money on, does not regulate anything else. For example, for the past 2 years, I have been a licensed guide with the PFBC, and I have not yet had to prove that I know anything about fishing! Do any of you agree with me, in saying that if the PFBC is going to regulate guiding, that there should be qualifications that need to be met in order to recieve a guide permit? There is nothing in place to test me to see if I know the difference between a trout and a sucker (i'll be waiting for a joke in the next post..silverkype, duncsdad, jlh etc..) ....Or to see if I know how to properly release and revive a fish. As long as he/she is insured and is certified in CPR/first aid and can come up with $100, they can become a fishing guide. Heck, I pay less money to stay licensed in real estate in a years time, than I do to renew my fishing guide permit, and real estate agents are tested thoroughly. 
 
I noticed recently, an outfitter that recently opened in state college, had written on their board showing current hatches, that #8 slate drakes, and #12-18 sulphurs where hatching. In case you dont flyfish, there is truley no such bug as a size 8 slate drake, or a size 12 sulphur. This outfitter, who runs a guiding operation, is teaching this to new flyfishers. This kind of BS could be avoided by having a test put in place by the PFBC, that would require guides to actually know what they are doing. This would protect the consumers, who rely on guides, by making sure guides are qualified to teach fishing.
 
There are a few topics I feel should be on a test, they are as follows:
-Ethics
-Proper handling of fish
-Fish identification
-Aquatic entomology (flyfishing guides only)
-Knowledge of PFBC laws & creel limits
-Wading safety
 
To conclude this post, guides are hired by consumers to teach them how to fish. The PFBC requires guides to be licensed to do this, but does not require a guide to have any knowledge whatsoever. Sound a little rediculous? I think so.

The PFBC couldnt give a rats****as to your qualifications, as long as your check to them doesnt bounce your qualified , as for charter boat captains, what in the hell does paying a 100 bucks do to make you safer or more qualified, this kind of state endorsed blackmail really ****es me off

They spend too much money stocking creeks that are not meant to sustain life for a fish.
 
They need to build and additional launch on the west side of Erie, PA
 
They need to enforce safe boating and fishing ethics more thoroughly.

"Charter boats are a bit different because many times the sport is interested in access to a boat, not fishing skills of the captain."
 
You should stick to fly fishing.  It's quite obvious you are a one trick pony.w_w.

ORIGINAL: Slate_Drake_9

"Quite frankly, other than reason number one, there is no need to know how to fish to be a guide"
 
 
WOW, that tops the list of rediculous statements I've seen on this message board. Thanks for the good laugh!

So please explain the fishing knowledge required to walk next to someone on a private stream/pond/lake/whatever so they are permitted to be there.  How many guys hire a guide so they can fish the private parts of say Spruce Creek, for instance. 

Also explain to me how much fishing knowledge is needed to point someone to a place where they can catch a fish.  Reading water may be necessary, but you can just watch someone else catch fish there and then tell your sport, "you'll do good over there."  Take for instance most, if not all of the Erie tribs during the peak steelhead runs.  Many guys hire a guide for that too.

In your post you talked about "fishing skills" like entomology, wading, PAFBC law knowledge, proper handling of fish, etc.  I really don't see how any of these skills are needed to complete the above two tasks and I believe that these tasks are why a majority of folks hire a guide on a stream.

 
The problem with your statement is that you are assuming all people being guided just want to fish private water, and already know how to fish. That's just not true.
 
In my years of guiding, I have guided very few people that were good fisherman. Most clients need at least some guidance with their casting, fly selection, bug identification etc... That is why most people hire a guide.

Nice conversation guys. I for one am very grateful for all the PFBC have done for our state and the fishing oppertunity's they have provided. If not for them all of the land would be private and only you're "buddy" would get to go. I live on wallenpaupack and people who own lake front still think they own the shore line(which is public 100' from the waters edge). SO!!!!    I am glad and will pay a whole lot more to keep them in "business"  $100 a year for a guide lisence OMG give me a break, how much do you make???????  Support them for they will help provide fishing and boating for "our" children in the future

That was also my point, My wife is a nurse, she had to take a test, I have an appraisers license, I had to take a test, The point we were trying to make was the PFBC doesnt care about anything except the money or  applicants would have to pass a test of some sort, that is of course assuming at least 1 person within the PFBC can read and write enough to come up with a few questions and call it a test

ORIGINAL: thedrake

"If not for them all of the land would be private and only you're "buddy" would get to go"
 
The PFBC has very little to do with streams being open for public use. For 99.9% of stream access, you can thank the generous land owners who own the streams, not the PFBC. The PFBC does provide access to lakes, that's something I wont compain about.

 
Mabe in your area, but in mine, our officers have went door to door just about every year with land owners to keep private property accessable by the public.  But yes, it is still ultimately because of gracious landowners allowing us to use their land.

Is PA so proud of their gestapo mentality thet they always make sure to publish the fines, do other states do this in their rules and regulations ?

No 2 people in any government agency will ever give the same answer if they are able to answer at all!
 

I'm on the fence with this one..being on a few charter's with diferent cap's..

some know there stuff and others are on the radio all day looking for info...
and others just cost to much. not to knock all but some need more time ..and the one's with less time charge less for a ride on a nice boat!!! like i said not to knock you but you know who you are....

I have hade some great time's and i will not indorse one or the other..

to the new guy's take your time get what you can and you will do good...
word's of a long time cap... Ho yeah stream guide's go for a walk find your spot......

ORIGINAL: duncsdad

Dan,

I think you would find it difficult to locate someone at the PFBC that could come up with a meaningful test that actually pertained to fishing.

 
 
Good point.....

It sounds as if there are too many guides and not enough business to go around.

I think... A test would be difficult to create.  Multiple tests would definitely be needed so a guy who wanted to run charters on Erie wouldn't need to know what size sulphurs are coming off Penns Creek on what dates.  But that would be a lot of different tests.  I'd contend the PAFBC needs to have some sort of way to monitor it's licensed guides and make sure that misinformation wasn't being propagated.  Whether that be someone like Eric Stroup at TCO telling people he has more than two times the experience he really has or a client having some kind of number they could call to register a complaint.  I'm sure if a client has a poor time and believes they were not given what they paid for, they could call the PAFBC, but what would they do about it?  As far as I know, there's nothing in place to monitor these complaints.

Since all the PAFBC does is collect $100 from each guide in the state, they must be doing so under the guise that this is an industry that must be monitored.  Only, it doesn't seem like they're monitoring it other than knowing how many guides there are and where they live.  To keep it alive and continue to have Guided Fishing Trips be a source of state income, they need to manage it a little more than they are doing now.  I believe Montana requires a guide to be endorsed by an "outfitter."  The outfitter needs 100 days guiding experience and must have passed some form of a written test.  I have no idea what's on that test, but at least it looks like Montana gives a crap about this form of state tourism/income more than just $100 a head.

As far as capitalism taking over and getting rid of the bad ones... I agree that shops/guides that continually give out bad info will typically go by the wayside, but the client of these shops/guides needs to find out that it's bad info for that to happen.  I've seen on a number of boards complaining about shops like TCO and at least one employee at FlyFishers Paradise giving out really bad information, to the point that they'd never go back.  I'm sure it's a small percentage of fly fisherman that have read those posts.  I'd suspect a lot of people hiring guides wouldn't know good from bad info.  A guide giving good info and instruction is not necessarily going to have a client that catches more fish than a client with a guide that has bad info and poor instruction.  This isn't guiding river rafting adventures where all the client has to do is sit there and paddle when told.  The client still has to be able to do the basics and my guess is that some just can't.

And I agree, the statement, "Quite frankly, other than reason number one, there is no need to know how to fish to be a guide" is one of the funnier things I've ever seen posted.  Unless you're chucking brown beetles on Donny Beaver's water, you need to know how to fish in order to be a guide.  Getting a person on to fish is one thing, but getting them to hook a fish is a lot different on real water.  If the guide doesn't know how to do it then the client sure as hell won't be able to.

TheDrake sputtered:

TheIn case you dont flyfish, there is truley no such bug as a size 8 slate drake, or a size 12 sulphur.

Dear Mr TheDrake:
Perhaps it would be a wise decision, since you are a "guide", to do a search for Ephemerella Rotunda and/or Ephemerella Invaria?