Price of a license

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venomous grin
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/08 14:15:42 (permalink)
personally I dont mind paying the current fee or even reasonably higher, reasonably, meaning comparable to the other states with good,plentiful,fishable waters

    I just hope they work on opening new fishable water and make repairs to others with this money,rather then close  and drain them


    As far as making children of the age of 12-15 pay for their license, I think it would be taking a step back in the whole" Take A Child Fishing " campaign,
and I dont believe that they should pay for a hunting license either, these early years in their lives are basically learning experiences they should be spent learning from their fathers good values and our responsibilities of taking care of our waters, rather then learning how Pennnsylvania is more worried about money then the developement of our youth and keeping this past time popular


    just my opinion, in the mean time "take a kid fishing"

Life isn't like a box of chocolates . it's more like a jar of
jalapenos. What you do today, might burn your****tomorrow.
#31
eyesandgillz
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/08 16:00:11 (permalink)
Cold,
You are from Latrobe, complaining about no deer, yet, you live within a half hour drive of one of the best areas of the state to hunt (2B).  You hang up your hunting gear because you can't shoot a deer right outside your back door yet you'll drive all the way to Erie to catch a bunch of slimers? 
 
I just don't get it.  Anyways, licenses need to increase to actually put the amount of officers on the streams and lakes that need to be there to enforce the regulations(I am sure they are short on officers just like the PGC) not to mention maintain current access and hopefully, improve future access.  After the next license increase, hopefully they index it to inflation so the legislature doesn't have the PAFBC (and PGC) by the short hairs from now until eternity. 
#32
spoonchucker
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/08 16:09:31 (permalink)
Just to put SOME of this debate to rest. The fees have NOT increased, and there is no proposal FOR an increase, at least not in the near future.

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#33
Icastalot
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/08 17:01:37 (permalink)
WOW, Since I posted the original, I would like to say that I am not complaining. I simply intended to initiate a conversation on the topic.
 
I have suceeded.
 
It is worth it. It will always be worth it if you want it to be, full well or not.
#34
rollcaster
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/08 19:58:02 (permalink)



Eyes, did you shoot that buck in your avatar on public ground?


#35
Big Fathead
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/08 23:40:14 (permalink)
I'm like most americans I want to pay as little as possible for anything I buy, but I would not wine and cry if they raised our fishing or hunting license fees. I do spend alot of time on the water and in the woods so the cost now are really a small fraction of the cost of the sport. As far as 16 year olds not being able to afford licenses if they cost a few extra bucks, I dont think thats even close to being true! Most 16 year old kids are wearing $50-$60 jeans, $30 shirts, $100 shoes, using cellphones, and who knows what else, so I think $40.00 won't kill them! When I was 16 I worked my rearend off so I could hunt and fish. As far as the adults complaining, How many are driving $25,000-$40,000 vehicles to their fishing spots? $40.00 WHO CARES? And I agree the people that complain are probably the same ones complaing about the FREE BOAT LAUNCH at Walnut, or the size of fish that are stocked (who would eat those garbage trout anyway?) I'd love to spend more money for better boat access in PA,  better docks in PA (Walnut especially), and more law enforcement in PA on the water.

I'm not trying to cause trouble I just can't stand complaining about the small fee to enjot such a great sport! 
 
IF THIS ISN'T WORTH $38.50, WHAT IS????????????????
AND THATS ONLY ONE DAY OF FISHING IN ERIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


post edited by Big Fathead - 2009/01/08 23:42:53

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#36
Cold
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/09 00:08:49 (permalink)
Cold,
You are from Latrobe, complaining about no deer, yet, you live within a half hour drive of one of the best areas of the state to hunt (2B).  You hang up your hunting gear because you can't shoot a deer right outside your back door yet you'll drive all the way to Erie to catch a bunch of slimers?


First of all, good question rollcaster.  I'm interested to hear the answer myself.

Second, if 2B is such a wonderful deer haven, why didnt the antlerless licenses sell there?  Second, I hunt in 2D, with my dad, and grandfather.  It's where my family has hunted since well before I was born and it has always produced deer until the past two years.  And as rollcaster said, there's the issue of private land.  I dont know when the last time was that you passed through Latrobe, but the town really took off once we got the railroad.  Lots of houses around everywhere.

Still, I'm not here to debate my reasons for hunting or not hunting, which was more about refusing to support the game commission than anything else, let's talk fishing licenses.  I'm of the opinion that, if you want people, especially kids, to get into fishing, then you can't make it expensive.  It's got to be cheap and accessible.  I have several friends who I've invited to go fishing, thathave really wanted to go, but it's not worth the $32 for them to go out for one Saturday.  And while I'd certainly be willing to take them fishing more often, I can see their point. 
#37
fruntz
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/09 11:49:06 (permalink)
I'm in early sixties and just started fishing about ten years ago.  Used to go a friend's cabin and he'd fish and I would read. Then I decided What the heck and bought a license and some gear.  Have been going ever since (actually more than my firend now.) 
 
there are two fish for free days in 2009 to which you can invite your friends.
Saturday, May 23 & Sunday, June
beyond that there are also a few pay to fish lakes still around.
 
For any other one day fee is only 11.70 (three beers and tip at most inexpensive bars) or buy full season for 22.70.  (four to five beers and tip at most inexpensive bars).  there are plenty of places to fish for something other than trout.  And if i interpret rules correctly, you only need the trout stamp during the following period of the year on waters designated for trout fishing.
 
The person fishes in streams or rivers designated as approved trout waters or their tributaries during the period from 8 a.m. on the opening day of trout season until 12:01 a.m. on the first Saturday in May.
 
it is over  $32 only if you want full season and trout stamp.
 
I have fished erie twice in past five years but still buy the combo stamp in case i want to go up there to try to catch something.
 
Are you sure that your friends really like you?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 
 




Type of Fishing License or Permit
Age
Cost

Resident
16-64
  $22.70

Senior Resident
65 & up
11.70

Senior Resident - Lifetime
65 & up
51.70

1-day Resident
16 & up
11.70

National Guard & Armed Forces Reserve (resident)*
16 & up
2.70

Prisoner of War (resident)*
16 & up
2.70

Prisoner of War - Senior Lifetime (resident)*
65 & up
2.70

Non-resident
16 & up
52.70

7-day Tourist
16 & up
34.70

3-day Tourist
16 & up
26.70

1-day Tourist (includes all privileges)
16 & up
26.70

Trout/Salmon Stamp
16 & up
9.70

Lake Erie Permit
16 & up
9.70

Combination Trout-Salmon/Lake Erie Permit
16 & up
15.70
#38
Cold
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/09 12:13:03 (permalink)
I didnt know about the one-day thing, but really, its irrelevant.  Most of the popular water around here is Approved.

Last year I just said screw it and invited two of them to a farm pond I fish regularly.  I think by law you still need a license, but at the same time, if someone were to spot us, they'd have to be tresspassing, so it worked out.  They both had a great time, and as a result of one fun trip, they both got their licenses.  Neither one has the skills to fool a trout on a stream yet, but they've both asked how early I start fishing in spring.  (Of course I told them I've already been out in 2009)
#39
eyesandgillz
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/09 12:55:26 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: fruntz

I'm in early sixties and just started fishing about ten years ago.  Used to go a friend's cabin and he'd fish and I would read. Then I decided What the heck and bought a license and some gear.  Have been going ever since (actually more than my firend now.) 

there are two fish for free days in 2009 to which you can invite your friends.
Saturday, May 23 & Sunday, June
beyond that there are also a few pay to fish lakes still around.

For any other one day fee is only 11.70 (three beers and tip at most inexpensive bars) or buy full season for 22.70.  (four to five beers and tip at most inexpensive bars).  there are plenty of places to fish for something other than trout.  And if i interpret rules correctly, you only need the trout stamp during the following period of the year on waters designated for trout fishing.

The person fishes in streams or rivers designated as approved trout waters or their tributaries during the period from 8 a.m. on the opening day of trout season until 12:01 a.m. on the first Saturday in May.

it is over  $32 only if you want full season and trout stamp.

I have fished erie twice in past five years but still buy the combo stamp in case i want to go up there to try to catch something.

Are you sure that your friends really like you?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 





Type of Fishing License or Permit
Age
Cost

Resident
16-64
$22.70

Senior Resident
65 & up
11.70

Senior Resident - Lifetime
65 & up
51.70

1-day Resident
16 & up
11.70

National Guard & Armed Forces Reserve (resident)*
16 & up
2.70

Prisoner of War (resident)*
16 & up
2.70

Prisoner of War - Senior Lifetime (resident)*
65 & up
2.70

Non-resident
16 & up
52.70

7-day Tourist
16 & up
34.70

3-day Tourist
16 & up
26.70

1-day Tourist (includes all privileges)
16 & up
26.70

Trout/Salmon Stamp
16 & up
9.70

Lake Erie Permit
16 & up
9.70

Combination Trout-Salmon/Lake Erie Permit
16 & up
15.70

 
fruntz,
if some didn't complain when they talked, then we would never hear from them....
 
Cold, here is the reg. on pond fishing:




Do I need a license to fish on my own land?

 

The law provides that no person 16 years of age or older shall fish in any of the waters of Pennsylvania or in any boundary waters without first procuring a license. However, there is an exemption in the law. The exemption allows landowners who reside on their land throughout the year and members of their families residing thereon to fish on their land in waters wholly within said land without a license. This exemption does not apply to any person temporarily residing upon the land or any tenant who is not a member of the family of the owner.  The exemption also does not apply to any servant or employee of the owner.
A pond or lake that is wholly within land owned by a homeowners association or a private club does not exempt the individual homeowners or club members from having a fishing license.
 
To answer the other question, no, the buck in my avatar was not shot on public land.  It was shot on private land that is open to hunting with a knock on a door, just like thousands upon thousands of acres within 2B.  Any more questions?
#40
bubbaman
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/09 13:33:46 (permalink)
just let them raise it to what ever they want, and keep saying I'll pay more, thats what they like to hear. because they don't want to be held accountabale for how they spend the money from the license revenue ! I don't mind a modest increase if we get something in return, but what do we get ? They sink millions into the trout program and it gets worse year after year. One reason is the OPENING DAY MENTALLITY they need to get away from it.
#41
rollcaster
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/09 13:48:02 (permalink)




Eyes ,I bet more poeple wish it was that easy. Just knock on a door. WOW. Your right most poeple post their land just to let everyone that knocks on their door hunt it. I bet you would not be happy if the land owner where you hunt let everyone that knocked on the door hunt there. Would you?
 
Sorry to get off topic guys, I'm done now I think.


#42
Cold
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/09 14:26:09 (permalink)
That's why people post land, so that every meathead with a deer rifle can bang on their door.  You didnt know that?

Bubba's post pretty much summarizes how I feel about it, with the added bit that I feel the PFBC does a much better job than the PGC which over the past decade has converted me from an avid hunter to a guy who, if it werent for my dad and grandpap, would probably never hunt in PA again.  They've ruined my deer hunting both in terms of regulations and quantity and quality of deer, and I'm not about to start chasing the deer around the state based on how they're managing year to year.  If that's your idea of a great time, have fun, that isnt for me, I'm not going to just grin and bear it when the PCG screws up my hunting, I'm going to quit mailing them a check. 

Eyes, I was well aware of that rule, but thanks for showing off your copy & paste prowess.  You've impressed us all with your mad skillz.

As far as licenses for fishing, I feel its a fair price now, and regular, small increases (for inflation only) are acceptable, but a 30% markup would probably see me getting a license that year, but not the next.  For kids learning to fish, its about the money, for me, its just on GP.  I'm not going to support either commission if I feel I'm being used.
#43
eyesandgillz
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/09 15:32:51 (permalink)
Cold,
Then that is just more fishing and hunting space for the rest of us if you give it up.  Thanks...
 
"Last year I just said screw it and invited two of them to a farm pond I fish regularly.  I think by law you still need a license, but at the same time, if someone were to spot us, they'd have to be tresspassing, so it worked out.  They both had a great time, and as a result of one fun trip, they both got their licenses.  Neither one has the skills to fool a trout on a stream yet, but they've both asked how early I start fishing in spring.  (Of course I told them I've already been out in 2009) "
 
Since you only "thought" you knew the law, I "thought" I was helping you out but I guess you can't please the little kiddies these days.

Again, you'll trounce all over the state to catch pelletheads and slimers on the Erie streams but you won't drive a few miles to better hunting.  That is your perogative but don't biatch and complain about it constantly.  None of the land I hunt on in 2B has any posters whatsoever on it and much of it is in the more rural areas of 2B and people expect you to ask for permission to hunt on their property just like any considerate hunter would.  If you choose to not put in a little leg work to make your hunting experience a little better, then boo hoo on you...I have a couple hankies to give you to wipe away the tears. 
 
PS - decent amount of huntable land not far from you on the Rte 22 corridor b/w Delmont and Blairsville.  Travel that way to the inlaws all the time and there are always deer out in the fields in the evenings. 
#44
Cold
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/09 18:22:07 (permalink)
Then that is just more fishing and hunting space for the rest of us if you give it up.  Thanks...


And that, perfectly put, is the sentiment that causes all this $100 license nonsense.  So many hunters and fishermen moan and complain about how nobody is hunting and fishing anymore and the sports are dying, but then they either hate it when they have to fish within sight of someone or they're happy to see people quitting hunting or fishing.  I understand that things like the PFBC and PGC need money to function, and I'm glad we have them for the services they do provide, but when I feel that either one is doing more harm than good to my hunting/fishing, I'm not going to continue to support them with my license fee.  That's just my prerogative, the same as it is yours to drink the kool-aid, or chase the deer across the state.  If that's what makes you happy, great.  What makes me happy is enjoying successful hunting on the land that my dad, and his before him have hunted for decades.  When I cant enjoy that anymore, hunting, for me, has lost alot of what makes it special to me.  Obviously, we can all see that you're all about the big antlers, and thats great, the buck in you avatar is a beautiful deer and I'm happy for you.  But given the choice of hunting all day with dad and grandpap and getting a nice big doe, or striking out on my own to get that buck...I'll be with dad and grandpap.

My point was never that there are no deer in Pennsylvania, my point was that I had a great thing where I used to hunt, and the PGC singlehandedly ruined it.  I'm not about to give up fishing, because I think the PFBC does a pretty good job, and they have done more for fishermen than make more nonsense rules to follow. 

As far as the fishing law, I do stand corrected on that.  By 'think' I meant 'unless they've changed it in 2009', but I did indeed say 'think'.  Sorry for jumping on your case about that one, and assuming that's current rules, thanks for the information.  Maybe I can use that to convince those same friends to re-up their license.

As far as steelhead and stocked trout, I did go up to erie a few times this year, and I'll be up again over the winter and spring, but its not like the fish commission said I could only keep trout over 18" in my area.  Yes, they do charge more to fish it, but the money for the hatchery facilities has got to come from somewhere, and it'd be wrong to pass that on to all taxpayers.  For trout in general, I've never fished for them farther than 20 minutes from my front door.  Stocked and unstocked waters.
#45
beatles4life2
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/09 22:00:28 (permalink)
This is better than Judge Judy................or the old People's Court with Judge Wapner and Rusty the Bailiff!
 

One fish, two fish. Red fish, blue fish.
#46
carpin05
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/09 23:51:16 (permalink)
It my push my buget to pay $100, but i would find a way...
I want to mention the number of small lake's in the state that were made in the day of the cc camp's that now are being drained do to dam problems that need repair, some one has to pay for that...
Some of those small lakes are a good place to start kids to get fishing....
My son caught his first trout in twin lakes when he was 4yrs old, he is 16 and we still talk of that day!!!!
You cant put a price on a great memory like that!!!!!And that is only one of many!!!!!
The CA$H is well spent!!!!!
 
Take your kid hunting today,And you won't hunt for them tomarrow!!!!!
#47
Ironhed
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/10 00:24:09 (permalink)
For anyone ****ing about the price of a license...when any other other state in the U.S. evens comes close to PA's stocking program(all species, just not trout)(what the hell, just trout) then you might have a prybar to argue with.
it's gotta be paid for somehow.  We asked for it so now we pay for it.  Pretty simple to me.

I see no problem with a youth license.  I do see a problem with folks who use the PF&BC as an excuse for their child NOT being interested, because they might have to pay a few bucks for a license.  It's the parents responsibilty, not the Commission's.
IMO, if you wanna let your kid sit in front of the tube and melt his eyeballs out playin Wii, so be it.
If they use it, ahem, exercise it, they should pay for it.
(Get out the whips boys)

Ironhed
#48
rollcaster
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/10 00:56:50 (permalink)



Iornhed, what about all the young kids (12-15) that have noone. I am sure there are lots of kids that age that dont have anyone to pay for a license and like to fish. Mabey by theirself with an old pole someone gave him. Are you going to pay for his youth license? I guess he shouldn't fish. I bet you are the type of person that would fine him. A youth license is bullsh*t.


#49
venomous grin
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/10 02:31:34 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: rollcaster




Iornhed, what about all the young kids (12-15) that have noone. I am sure there are lots of kids that age that dont have anyone to pay for a license and like to fish. Mabey by theirself with an old pole someone gave him. Are you going to pay for his youth license? I guess he shouldn't fish. I bet you are the type of person that would fine him. A youth license is bullsh*t.





yep, I have a 15 year old and a soon to be 2 year old. They spend more time learning how to cast and untangle lines, and how to stay away from ignorant greedy adult fishermen then actually getting to fish , to charge them for this is ridiculous, unless you have young kids I think you dont have a clue about this subject.


post edited by venomous grin - 2009/01/10 02:33:10

Life isn't like a box of chocolates . it's more like a jar of
jalapenos. What you do today, might burn your****tomorrow.
#50
spoonchucker
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/10 14:33:32 (permalink)
Have any of you even LOOKED at the youth license proposal. before railing against it? First off they are proposing a FIVE dollar fee, NOT $40. Second, the money is to be directed toward new youth angling program ( what's happening now isn't working, why not TRY somehing new ). Third, enforcement will NOT be directed toward citation, but rather toward education of the program. Those who cannot "afford" $5 ( hahh ), will be directed toward clubs, and organizations which can purchase bulk licenses for such cases.
 
Now, if Johnny wants to fish, but you balk over $5, then you're an**** and a fool who would rather let the "tube" babysit, than share time with your child.

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#51
Cold
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/10 16:50:34 (permalink)
I have no kids, but even I know that if you want to get kids to fish, charging any money where there was no charge before is an idea of monumental stupidity, no matter the actual dollar amount.  I have read about the junior license, alot, and it's one of the stupidest ideas I've seen from the PFBC in a long time.  I dont always agree with everything they do, but this is the first time that I'll say that one of their ideas is actually stupid.
#52
rollcaster
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/10 17:25:35 (permalink)



Spoon, I dont think anyone would not take their kid over five dollers. Its just the point of why charge a kid anything. A youth program should be at the top of their list right now without additional fees. The more kids they get interested now the more that buy license when they are 16.


#53
Wally Cat
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/10 17:36:28 (permalink)
Spoon, good explanation of the youth license funds. And for those Dad's that are complaining about $5, I wonder how much was spent on Christmas "stuff" that has already outlived it's usefulness. Or what did you pay for the Wii and a couple of programs. In my opinion a license in a holder would give the kid something to talk about and actually brag to his friends about. Kind of like a "Red Badge Of Courage".



Enjoy Life, Be Happy, Go Fish - Often!

"God has blessed America - may He continue to do so, even though we are not worthy of it".
Author..... Wally Cat
#54
spoonchucker
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/10 21:52:36 (permalink)
Cold,
 
The monies will go to programs that introduce them to the sport.You have to do SOMETHING to get them interested in the first place. Any kid who DOESN'T fish over a $5 fee, wasn't going to fish anyway.
 
 

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#55
Mountian Man
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/10 22:25:52 (permalink)
I think youth just don't have the patience anymore.  Plus they are way to concerned with video games and other high tech crap.

Thread Killer

Veni Vidi Vici...
#56
Big Fathead
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/10 22:53:45 (permalink)
Repeat this again, The PA Fish Commission would not cite a kid for not having a license BUT will educate them on the program. I think the kid program should be funded through adult licensing. Charge everyone an extra 10 or 15 bucks and allocate that money to kid fishing programs only. Antone that has a problem with that surely don't care about kids! I would gladly pay the $5.00 for each kid I took fishing. I would have to drink more tap water instead of bottled water!
 
There are still many deer in 2D! If you spend the time hunting youj will find them. Although the herd is much smaller than it used to be there still are quite a few left. The game commission didn't screw the hunting up, the HUNTERS did! I would bet not one single game commision officer or deputy pulled the trigger on anyones gun to slaughter the herd! I never herd any game commission official saying if its brown its down or its slaughter time! How many deer do you think officer hip Brunst harvested in 2D? I'd bet NONE! You people crack me up with the mentality that it's always the game commissions fault.
 
As far as 2B, yes you can knock on doors (as you always should) and get permission to hunt private land. You will get some that say NO but that happens everywhere. If you are a responsible hunter you will easily gain access to many properties if you ask!
 
I'm done wasting my time with this thread! LATER BOYS!  
#57
Cold
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/11 01:02:13 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: spoonchucker

Cold,

The monies will go to programs that introduce them to the sport.You have to do SOMETHING to get them interested in the first place. Any kid who DOESN'T fish over a $5 fee, wasn't going to fish anyway.


I'm not saying the price is outrageous, but rather the fee itself.  If they're not going to cite the kids, then isnt it more like a voluntary donation?  I suppose I'm of the opinion that they should already have been doing the things that they claim theyll start doing with this cash.

There are still many deer in 2D! If you spend the time hunting youj will find them. Although the herd is much smaller than it used to be there still are quite a few left. The game commission didn't screw the hunting up, the HUNTERS did! I would bet not one single game commision officer or deputy pulled the trigger on anyones gun to slaughter the herd! I never herd any game commission official saying if its brown its down or its slaughter time! How many deer do you think officer hip Brunst harvested in 2D? I'd bet NONE! You people crack me up with the mentality that it's always the game commissions fault.


Funny how the same little piece of land has been producing large herds of big, healthy doe, with the occasional nice buck year after year, for longer than I've been alive...then within 3 years of the antler restrictions and all these other new laws, there's a bunck of scrubby buck and tiny doe.  Yes the deer are there, but they're scrawny.  And I dont blame the WCOs, they dont make the rules, they're just stuck enforcing them.  You people crack me up with the PGC****kissing you do when anyone complains about them.  If they've improved your hunting, fine, but dont tell me they haven't messed up mine.
#58
spoonchucker
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/11 01:14:13 (permalink)
 "I suppose I'm of the opinion that they should already have been doing the things that they claim theyll start doing with this cash."
 
They ARE. This will just enable them to expand it. Plus, we are talking about 12-15 year olds, not kiddies catching gills with daddy. At that age they start having to pay FULL price for pretty much ANY other activity. A JR license gives them a chance ( at a nominal fee ), to start taking responsibility in, and get a sense of ownership of the sport.

Plus, they don't seem to be interested if it's FREE. Just look at how many kids are in pay to play basketball, hockey, and soccer leagues, but you never see them in the backyard, or playground playing them.

Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference.

Step Up, or Step Aside


The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody.

GL
#59
Cold
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RE: Price of a license 2009/01/11 01:34:36 (permalink)
I get what you're saying, really, I do.  I just dont think that charging for something that has historically been free will be a good move.  If you like the idea, you're certainly entitled to feel that way, I just happen to disagree.  I'm sure there's plenty of other issues that we do agree on.  
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