ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

You say that overlining a rod makes a tip-flex rod bend deeper into the rod, which is exactly the definition of a slower rod.  I agree that the proportions remain the same for a respective action rod to an extent.  My point is that you are accomplishing basically the same thing by overlining a rod, as you would be by using a slower rod in that same weight (and manufacturer of course). 

For your Porche, adding dead weight will slow the car down!!  It will change handling characteristics, acceleration, top speed, ect.  Yes it is still the same car underneath, but the added weight can and will alter the performance.  Same for overlining a rod, yes it is still the same rod underneath, but what does that matter when it acts totally different?   

 

 
 
Esox,
 
A rod that bends deeper is NOT the definition of a slow rod.
 
The action is what proportion of the rod bends when placed under load.  If you lay a rod completely horizontal with the butt clamped in place (like the common cents method) and a light weight on the tip, the rod will start to bend.  If you had an extremely fast action (too fast to be useful to fly fish with) the top 10% of the rod would bend and point to the floor while the bottom 90% of the rod would still be exactly parallel to the floor.  Even if you put more weight on the tip, only that top 10% would bend.  In the opposite extreme, if you have an extremely slow action the rod will flex well into the butt and you'll feel the grip flexing with little weight or effort.  In the clamped-in scenario above, the tiniest weight would have the grip flexing.  In terms of flex distribution, if you started at the butt of the rod and worked towards the tip, the rod would have started to flex as soon as it is outside of the clamp.  It would continue to flex and droop below the table or workbench incrementally as you moved out to the tip.  When you got to the tip, you'd find that it isn't pointed directly at the ground, rather it would be pointed around 45 degrees to the ground.
 
There is a good graphic on the CTS blanks website to show it.
 
http://www.ctsfishing.com/images/maxim2.GIF
 
If you look at their chart, you can see the Affinity S at the top and the Vintage and quartz at the bottom.  Look at the flex profiles of the affinity S compared to the quantum.  The affinity S is nearly poker straight for the bottom 75% of the rod.  Only the very tip is flexing.  The Quantum is showing some flex starting 25% of the way up the rod and then more flex as you go.  No matter how much weight you put on the affinity (or how far you overline the rod) the curve profile will never match that of the quantum.  No matter how far you underline the quantum, it is still going to start flexing at the 25% mark.  That is the action of the blank which is an inherent design quality and built into the blank.  You cannot change the action of the blank unless you add or take away graphite.

Thanks,
Rick

can't go wrong with a St.Croix or Fly Logic...........both have expensive rods......both have economy rods.......Fly Logic--made in USA.........St. Croix.......Avid and up are made in USA, but the reborn Imperial shall be USA made also.........
 
I started on the tribs with a 5 wt.......landed a bunch of fish...........but could not handle the bigger fish all too well........it took too long..........went with a 9.5 foot 7 wt avid............worked perfectly for steelhead in Erie and I also landed plenty of salmon on that 7 wt.........tough rod..........
 
look for sales and you will find a good rod.........you can too, sometimes find used rods that were barely used.....if used at all.........
 
good luck

ORIGINAL: Esox_Hunter

Once again I never said anything about changing the blank of the rod.  All I have been saying from the start that by overlining a rod you effectively slow it down!!  I never said anything about changing the rods composition.  With a heavier line you change the characteristic of the rod to "feel" like a slower rod.  I never said it will be a slower rod, only that it will act like a slower one.

Am I missing something on your diagram you posted?  The slower the rod the deeper the bend into the rod, how is that not a characteristic of a slower rod?   

Esox,

I know you didn't say anything about changing the blank. You said that overlining a fly rod will change its action. I said that the ONLY way that you will change the action of a fly rod is to alter the blank. You cannot alter the action of the rod by changing the line on it. Period. End of story.

Yes, I think you are missing something in the diagram, probably because I'm not explaining what I mean well enough. According to what you posted above, you can overline a fast action rod and make it a slower action. That would be the equivalent to taking an affinity Sfx action from the diagram and putting a fly line on it that was 3 lines too heavy. While the rod would bend deeper during your casting, the flex profile would stay the same. In the diagram, you can see that the affinity s XF is dead poker straight for the bottom half, barely bends a little for the next 25%, and the top 25% bends quite far relative to baseline of the bottom of the blank. Let's use that as the standard line casting curve. If you then overline that rod you will get more total deflection, but it will still be in the tip. The bottom 50% of the rod is still not going to bend. The next 25% will bend a bit more, and the top 25% will bend slightly more. The action is still fast because the tip is doing the work and doing all of the bending.

Now compare that curve to the curve of the quantum. The bottom 25% is fairly straight, the middle 50% bends a fair amount, and the tip bends slightly more. With a standard line casting curve (as we defined above) the blank is flexing well down into the rod even with the lightest amount of line.

Bending deeper is NOT the definition of a slow action. Bending deeper into the rod proportionally to the tip of the rod is closer to the definition of a slow action. Overlining may slow the response of the rod down, but it does not change the action. Fast is a poor way to describe a rods action. Fast implies speed of time, which action is not related to. Tip oriented and butt oriented would be better terms, but fast/moderate/slow is the industry standard now.

Let's talk response rate for a minute. The response rate is how fast the rod recovers from being bent. If you hold the butt still, bend the tip back, and let go the tip is going to spring away from your hand. How fast it springs away is largely determined by the material. The higher the modulus of the graphite, the faster it will spring away. This response rate is what you are changing by over lining a rod. This is what you are slowing down.

To clarify a bit more, you can have a fast action rod with fast responding (high modulus) graphite (GLX is a perfect example). You can also have a slow action rod with high modulus graphite (some winston WT and Sage SP). A slow action doesn't have to be slow responding. Of course you can make the other combinations also (fast action, slow graphite- Amtak IM series; slow action, slow modulus- many fiberglas rods).

If you take a fast actioned rod (regardless of modulus) and overline it, you have effectively made it a fast action rod of a lower modulus material. You haven't changed the action of the rod at all, only the response rate. That is fundamentally different to changing the action and it is not the same feel in the rod. A damped fast action rod still feels like a fast action rod. The flex is still in the tip. It feels completely different to a moderate action rod.

Thanks,
Rick

>>Wow do you guys over think things. Just find a rod you like use the line it calls for and give it a roll. <<
 
Far too easy. We'd all be back teaching wurrums the breast stroke:-)

Esox, cbf, I appreciate all this rhetoric, but even I'M to the point that I could almost care less.  And I'm the one who asked!

I thank everyone for their input, and while I'm still undecided on specifics, I'm looking for a 9' to 9'-6" 7wt. 2 piece.  Hopefully with a little bit of a softer/slower action.  If I wanted a stick, I'd get a stick.  Add in a nice warranty plan, and I'll be happy.

Well, two weeks later, two parts necessity and three parts discovery have affected my decision somewhat.


After a streamside mishap robbed my 5 wt. of a guide, I got a St. Croix Reign, in 5 wt. I still plan to get the other one repaired, but until I can find a local place to do it for a reasonable price, I still need to fish!  (On that note, I live near Latrobe.  Anyone know of a rod repair guy in the area?)

So far, I like the rod, except that, over three outings, I've caught 7 fish...all of which have been able to get off the line before I can bring them to hand.  While this is a serious issue, I have also found that this is a great do-it-all rod.  The biggest difference is that it's WAY faster than my other rod, which makes it a bear to cast in tight conditions, but has vastly improved my casting results in windy conditions.  As long as I focus on what I'm doing, I can lay down a tight, low loop that, while I'm sure its not the prettiest cast, it does exactly what I need it to do.

That said, I've hooked and fought 2 nice sized steelhead with it, and with the faster action, it gives me enough backbone to fight em.  Because of this, I've decided to use this rod for steel, for now.

This has the effect of inverting my priorities.  From needing a heavier rod for steel, I now need a lighter, MUCH slower rod for cramped stream conditions and 8-16" trout.  I'll also use the 5 wt. for any other gamefish, and the lighter rod for panfish.  So...can anyone recommend a nice slow (moderate to moderate-slow), 3 wt rods?

Cast. I see your point. If you go by line wt alone it doesnt mean a thing. Just for example I have a 6 wt Orvis trout model that I would never bring to the tribs. It is a great trout rod but has no backbone for steel. On the other hand I have a cheap Clearwater also a 6 wt that I can tow your car out of a ditch with.
 
Both 6 wts. But man what a differance. The Orvis Clearwater is a 9ft 6 wt. And I think highly of it. A good choice for the price.. Also you can be fishing a 12 wt on the tribs with 6x. What does that get ya. I think we owe it to each other on crowded water to have the heaviest of tippet and a rod with backbone to get the job done in the least ammount of time.
 

Echo makes a great rod, Cold

Tim Rajeff is a complete maniac, Iv'e had the joy of his company at a local bar before, wont divulge details but it was quite the experience.  Where exactly is your local fly shop?  Anglers Room?

Anyways, Echo has a great lifetime warranty and no bullcrap if you break it policy, however, the only thing I do not like about these rods is they have single footed guides.  Some guys like em, but for a rod freak such as myself unless its about as fast as a tuna rod I prefer well ground double foots, but again my opinion. 

As far as the 7 wt goes you are right in the target area.  I prefer a 6 wt for Erie county steelhead, but again personal opinion.  If you plan on going elsewhere, 7wt is the way to go. As far as length 10' is a good length, but it can be hard to fish in certain places, smaller streams, and that one place that you fish under a tunnel (you know where I mean, put to much side pressure and not only will you lose the fish but your tip will go with it, saw it happen to a dude with a T&T last year, dufus).  So there is some room to play with there if you have the option.  I dont know if the Echo you are looking at comes with two tip sections like some of the models do, but that is another great feature of the rod as well. 

St Croix im on the fence about. I would ever spend the money they ask for factory rods when they have such a huge blank selection, but as a builder I cant justify buying factory anything.  If you want to stay under a certain price range, help out the economy in the US, and get yourself a well built rod, swing Echo's direction. 

Just my .02

I WANT to know...but I also get the distinct impression that, really, I DONT want to know...

Shooting firewater then snorting red hot directly after for starters

*shudders*

Good waste of hot sauce, or ultimate nasal/sinus decongestant??? You decide!

No wonder he can cast so far...all he has to do is time the nervous tic he's no doubt developed.

Franks was made for scrambled eggs, not as a way to scrub your septum.

Agreed about the 6 wt....

Sage?  Not so much.

Cold,
The ECHO SOLO rod is an incredible rod!  They make them in 4, 5, and 6 weights too.  I have casted the 10' 7 wt ION, it's a nice rod but for about 35 dollars more, I prefer the TFO Jim Teeny 10' 7wt.  It's also a 5 piece so it breaks down for easier travel.  I have been using it for a few years now and I have no complaints, even on the smaller streams.

best rod for the bucks is temple fork... i run anywhere from an 8wt to a 10wt for both steelies and salmon.  but i do spend most of my summer in alaska so that's why i run such high weights.  use to run a 7-8wt for great lakes salmon and steelies but fell in love with my temple 10wt and swear by it...
 

Rod weight on its on means nothing. I have two 6 wts from Orvis. One is the popular Superfine Trout. The other is an Orvis Clearwater. Both 6 wts. I would have a hell of a time landing a big steelie on the Superfine. On the other hand the Clearwater is my rod of choice on the tribs. Dont be fooled by line weight alone. Go to a fly shop cast the rod. Make sure it has plenty of backbone despite the rod weight ranking of the rod. That being said I wouldnt go below a 4 wt in most situations,

i use a 9 ft. 5 weight in low water conditions. i tend to avoid crowds. but, i also use a 9 foot 8 weight made by cabela's. (stowaway). found it there for 41 bucks. tube and sock included. not a mark on it. cork wasnt even dirty.