A cry for help... 
dpms
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 20:53:37
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ORIGINAL: RSB
But, it is a good thing for those that really longer want to be in law enforcement but can’t leave because they have no other logical or livable employment options. do we really want officers out there on the job who are only there because they don’t really have any other choice?
R.S. Bodenhorn
I brought this up before. Would you want a physical therapist rehabbing you after suffering a acute stroke that really doesn't want to work any longer but really doesn't have any other choice? This dilemma is not unique to your profession or mine. But, this is something we know going in. My back will probably not tolerate transferring double below the knee amputees well for much longer but I cannot expect a early retirement and benefit package because of it. Just as your physical ability may put you or others at risk, mine can as well. I can hurt myself, potentially drop a patient,or cause injury to another therapist during the process.
My rifle is a black rifle
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dpms
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 21:26:04
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Anyway, RSB. Our points have been made. You got a busy day tomorrow I am sure. Hit the sack and go get em in the morning. I got a bunch of buddies up in your district for bear tomorrow. Hope they take a few.
My rifle is a black rifle
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RSB
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 21:31:15
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ORIGINAL: dpms
ORIGINAL: RSB
But, it is a good thing for those that really longer want to be in law enforcement but can’t leave because they have no other logical or livable employment options. do we really want officers out there on the job who are only there because they don’t really have any other choice?
R.S. Bodenhorn
I brought this up before. Would you want a physical therapist rehabbing you after suffering a acute stroke that really doesn't want to work any longer but really doesn't have any other choice? This dilemma is not unique to your profession or mine. But, this is something we know going in.
My back will probably not tolerate transferring double below the knee amputees well for much longer but I cannot expect a early retirement and benefit package because of it. Just as your physical ability may put you or others at risk, mine can as well. I can hurt myself, potentially drop a patient,or cause injury to another therapist during the process.
I figure anyone who isn’t happy with the person doing their rehab has many choices and options to find one they are happy with and it will not take them long to know if their therapist isn’t what they want working with them. When you need a law enforcement officer though there might only be fractions of seconds for them to respond in a life and death situation. Therefore, you might never get a second chance to decide you aren’t satisfied with the law enforcement officer you ended up with. Sorry, but since you insisted on an answer I will have to tell you that I see absolutely zero comparison between the potential for the instant and possible life saving decisions a law enforcement officer might have to make and the job a physical therapist does at any age. If a physical therapist can’t cut it in their profession it doesn’t have anything to do with their age, but generally that is not the case at all with being a law enforcement officer. Age makes a huge difference in the ability of law enforcement officers still being able to do their job. If you don’t believe me just go out and get your self into a physical fight with the largest 25 year old you can find. Remember Officers don’t get to choice who is going to physically challenge or assault them, they have to deal with what comes their way. Anyone who thinks people in their 50s and 60s are the ones best suited to be doing law enforcement simply aren’t being very perceptive of life’s realities. R.S. Bodenhorn
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RSB
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/18 21:37:51
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ORIGINAL: dpms
Anyway, RSB. Our points have been made. You got a busy day tomorrow I am sure. Hit the sack and go get em in the morning. I got a bunch of buddies up in your district for bear tomorrow. Hope they take a few.
You’re right that tomorrow will probably be a long day but it is hard to tell just how busy it is going to be. I hope your buddies do well on bears but I have concerns it isn’t going to be a real productive season in this area. No mast to speak of except a few remaining apples and I don’t know it that is going to be much help to the hunters. I suspect a lot of our female bears are already denned. But, we will have a much better handle on that by the end of the day tomorrow. It might be better than I expect though. It seems the archers have been doing better than usual, so hopefully the gun hunters will as well. R.S. Bodenhorn
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bingsbaits
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/19 07:55:00
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Loggers 82.3 – generally killed mistakes they made
Really ????You must know alot about logging accidents to make that comment.
Unforseen danger is what kills those loggers.
Rick died when a dead tree pounded his azz into the ground. What kind of mistake did he make.
Tree was frozen ground was frozen.
Tim died when an unseen widow maker in the leaf canopy came crashing down and pounded his azz into the ground. Made no mistakes, unseen danger.
Rod died when his father bumped a tree with the skidder and the tree top came down and smashed his azz into the ground.
Gary died when his chainsaw kicked and slit his throat. What mistake did he make ????
Loggers face death everyday, to many "unforeseeable" dangers out there to make a blanket statement like that.
And why isn't WC good enough for our elustreous WCOs. It is for 80% of the rest of the working world. Why do they deserve full pay ????
"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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retired guy
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/19 07:56:54
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Right on RSB- that 25 yr old thing is what put me in the RT mode-ya never know who when or where. The only thing ya DO know is that YOU are the guy who gotta deal with it-LE cant go to the phone and call somebody else. ( then complain bout how they handeld it) BTW- nobody here that I have noticed EVER said other occupations arent dangerous too- many are and we all recognize that.
post edited by retired guy - 2011/11/19 10:55:37
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dpms
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/19 10:24:25
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ORIGINAL: RSB
I see absolutely zero comparison between the potential for the instant and possible life saving decisions a law enforcement officer might have to make and the job a physical therapist does at any age. If a physical therapist can’t cut it in their profession it doesn’t have anything to do with their age, but generally that is not the case at all with being a law enforcement officer. Age makes a huge difference in the ability of law enforcement officers still being able to do their job.
There is a reason why I do not work with any phyiscal therapists over the age of 55. I don't know any over the age of sixty working as a staff therapist. I can guarantee they are not retired with benefits unless they were one of the fortuntate few that worked in the public sector. As you state, age makes a huge difference when physical ability is needed in your profession and mine. I understand how it comes into play in yours but you are not willing to accept that it also comes into play in mine. Bottom line is neither is justification for early retirement and benefit packages at the expense of others. Since I work in the private sector, these packages are rare. In the public sector, they are common. Way too common, IMO.
post edited by dpms - 2011/11/19 10:37:01
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draketrutta 
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/19 10:54:42
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ORIGINAL: RSB
ORIGINAL: draketrutta
ORIGINAL: RSB
You have obviously never had someone shooting at you with their deer rifle while you hid behind what ever cover you can find for an hour or more waiting for PSP to arrive with a rifle capable of effectively returning fire.
No I haven't.
Have you?
If so, kindly post up the date/location of the incident, or better yet, post up a link -because I am sure it made the news.
I await your response.
No I have never been pinned down with rifle fire but I have been dispatched and responded to assist other WCOs who where pinned down with rifle fire from big game hunters. Neither the pinned down officers or any of the responding WCOs had an issued rifle to return fire when they got on scene. So far it has always worked out that we didn’t need a rifle to save lives but that doesn’t mean it will always work out that someone isn’t killed because a rifle wasn’t available.
Just last year we had WCOs being fired upon by a hunter with a rifle during the first day of the deer season.
R.S. BodenhornÂ
If someone willfully shot at any member of a law enforcement agency in Pa, it would be reported, so spare me the excuse that it was unreported/undocumented. Post up a link. Until that happens, I call BS.
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retired guy
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/19 10:58:14
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Knew a lawyer once who said his job was just as dangerous as LE cause he had to stand with bad guys in court. He was trying to get LE support for a political campaign and must have actually thought he was 'bonding'. Recall going to a place alone and hearing shots real close as I approached -even found a .38 with several empties on the ground- was I shot at- I believe so- then there were those who said 'prove it' - well I aint shot and nobody who got arrested for the other stuff would fess up so I guess they were just firecrackers.
post edited by retired guy - 2011/11/19 11:02:22
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ready2fish
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/19 17:33:08
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ORIGINAL: draketrutta
ORIGINAL: RSB
ORIGINAL: draketrutta
ORIGINAL: RSB
You have obviously never had someone shooting at you with their deer rifle while you hid behind what ever cover you can find for an hour or more waiting for PSP to arrive with a rifle capable of effectively returning fire.
No I haven't.
Have you?
If so, kindly post up the date/location of the incident, or better yet, post up a link -because I am sure it made the news.
I await your response.
No I have never been pinned down with rifle fire but I have been dispatched and responded to assist other WCOs who where pinned down with rifle fire from big game hunters. Neither the pinned down officers or any of the responding WCOs had an issued rifle to return fire when they got on scene. So far it has always worked out that we didn’t need a rifle to save lives but that doesn’t mean it will always work out that someone isn’t killed because a rifle wasn’t available.
Just last year we had WCOs being fired upon by a hunter with a rifle during the first day of the deer season.
R.S. BodenhornÂ
If someone willfully shot at any member of a law enforcement agency in Pa, it would be reported, so spare me the excuse that it was unreported/undocumented.
Post up a link.
Until that happens, I call BS.
It happened these WCO's here is a link: http://www.naweoa.org/joomla15/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=167:pennsylvania-wco-encounters-shots-fired&catid=4:us-news&Itemid=82 Nearly every Police Officer is this day and age has immediate access to a patrol rifle. IMHO the PGC is behind the times and their WCO's also should have immediate access to a patrol rifle.
post edited by ready2fish - 2011/11/19 17:37:26
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spoonchucker
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/19 18:22:02
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To quote Sonny Corleone, "I don't want my brother coming out of that toilet with just his pecker in his hands, alright?"
Get Informed, Get Involved, And Make A Difference. Step Up, or Step Aside The next time you say "Somebody should do something", remember that YOU are somebody. GL
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wayne c
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/19 21:23:00
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I am all for wco safety. But I dont have a problem with things as they are, and dont think it reasonable to expect precautions to be taken to counter any and every concievable possible way some madman might wanna try to attack them, because one officer has been gunned down in the last 100 years.
It was a senseless tragedy, but knee jerk reactions won't solve a thing but waste alot of money if we were to prepare them for everything equipmentwise from rapists with armored tanks to tear gas attacks. As has been pointed out its far from one of the most dangerous jobs out there, and its hardly as if they are being asked to go out there unarmed.
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ready2fish
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/20 21:56:38
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But that is what LEO's do, been that way for hundredrs of years. We always must anticipate what "may happen" and be properly prepared. It's a disservice to the people we serve not to be prepared. While I agree that one WCO death in 100 years statistically is low, one must also examine WCO deaths nationwide. The potential for a WCO fatality is possible every single day, as it is for all LEO's. I guess I hardly find it to be a knee jerk reaction when it's been over a year since WCO Grove's incident. I personally think the potential for armed encounters is greater for WCO's as opposed to say Police Officers. A WCO deals with armed persons on the vast majority of their encounters. Why not be properly prepared for the "what if?"
IMHO the PGC officers are simply trying to prevent another senseless tragedy by being prepared. Reliable handheld communications are an absolute must. I find it to be somewhat crazy that the PGC is so far behind the times in that area also.
As I mentioned above, patrol rifles are a staple in todays law enforcement. PGC is behind the times there also.
If the PGC were to decide to purchase radios and rifles, there are many grant or other options they could explore to lessen the cost to us hunters. I know of a local county Sheriffs office that just purchased military surplus AR-15's for every deputy. They bought them for less than $250 each. They are issued to them just as is their sidearm.
Just my thoughts, only one opinion none the less.
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/20 22:30:28
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No reson a WCO can't use there own weapon if they feel the one provided and paid for theough the PGC is not adaquite. Many profesions including cops are permitted to use their own. I talked to a trooper and local cop over the weekend and ask if a wCO job had the same dangers of their job. Both repoonded not hardley. How often is a WCO cheching out a criminal ? 100 years and one death makes a bold statement about the dangers of a WCO .
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DarDys
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/21 07:39:43
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I have no issue with the WCO's being issued whatever weapons they may need. I write that even knowing a fairly disturbing statistic, which I learned from two people that own a vendor company that does the tactical training for ATF, FBI, and several municipality police forces -- in close encounter fire fighters were an officer uses his handgun, only 20% of the rounds fire strike their intended target, meaning that 80% go somewhere unintended.
As for WCO's not being physically able or sharp enough after age 50, good arguement. Do what coal miners, construction workers, mill workers, etc. do -- get a different job that you can do and wait for retirement -- just like they did -- not get early retirement.
The poster formally known as Duncsdad Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/21 16:53:38
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As for WCO's not being physically able or sharp enough after age 50, good arguement. Do what coal miners, construction workers, mill workers, etc. do -- get a different job that you can do and wait for retirement -- just like they did -- not get early retirement. Very good point. The officers I know have to go through tough qualifications more often than state police do. If they can't perform their job duties there gone . They don't have the luxury of hanging bird houses or weighing bears if they become unable to perform ALL their duties.
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wayne c
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/21 18:00:41
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"But that is what LEO's do, been that way for hundredrs of years. We always must anticipate what "may happen" and be properly prepared." And in my opinion, within reason, they are. "I guess I hardly find it to be a knee jerk reaction when it's been over a year since WCO Grove's incident." Yet still VERY fresh in all of our minds. "I personally think the potential for armed encounters is greater for WCO's as opposed to say Police Officers." Does history and statistics bear that out.? I dont have the stats, but Im betting its not even close considering cops are much more likely to deal with actual "criminals" doing their duties. "A WCO deals with armed persons on the vast majority of their encounters." Only problem with that statement is, the huge majority of those "armed" persons (hunters) for the most part are no more dangerous or no more "crooks" than most of the "unarmed" public. If they feel the need, I wouldnt see why they couldnt carry their own personal firearm(s) in the patrol vehicle. Assuming most are hunters, They probably have rifles, shotguns and whatnot.
post edited by wayne c - 2011/11/21 18:02:37
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ready2fish
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RE: A cry for help...
2011/11/22 08:24:32
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I totally agree with last statement. I see no reason why they should not be able to carry personally purchased weapons, within set guidelines of course.
Also, as far as the 50 year old retirement, most LEO's do need to get another job once they "retire" as LEO's. I know I will have to, no way my pension will be enough. I have 3 years until I can consider that option and I plan on trying to get a job outside law enforcement. I love my job and have for my entire career, but 20 years is enough. Tired of the shift work, all the overtime, court, and some other things. I'm proud of helping the numerous people I have in my career but it definately is a younger persons game.
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