Helpful ReplyAid to Ukraine 
bigfoot
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Aid to Ukraine
From the information I gathered it appears the USA has given Ukraine 62 billion dollars so far in aid and I just heard that President Biden has said another 8 billion will be provided.
Opinions please. Good idea, bad idea, don’t care one way or another.
How did the person who invented the first clock know what time it was?
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Porktown
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/26 22:05:08
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No one wants to give any country any money. But I’d much rather see us aid countries at war financially/weapon supplies, than have our troops involved. With many of the countries entering NATO being ex-Soviet territories or Warsaw pact, very likely in the plans of being next, that means our troops involved.
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DeadGator401
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/27 00:09:50
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Yep. If Putin is allowed to take countries uncontested it only emboldens him.
An emboldened Putin means World War 3. It's as simple as that for me.
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MyWar
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/27 10:52:15
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By sending aid to Ukraine, we have the opportunity to indirectly engage and weaken one of the biggest international threats to not just the US, but also Europe, and “the west” in general.
The financial cost is a fraction of the defense budget, and we can do it with basically none of our own troops, so it will cost zero American lives.
Additionally, we aren’t giving them $8 billion in cash, we are essentially giving them an $8 billion gift card for the US military clearance bin, since a good bit of the equipment we are sending to them would not be used otherwise.
The downside is that the federal government will just spend more money to make more equipment to replace what gets shipped out to Ukraine, and I’m generally not in favor of the way this country feeds the military industrial complex like it’s at an all you can eat buffet, but that’s kind of another topic.
This isn’t some dumb war that the US started like Iraq or Afghanistan. This isn’t even a proxy war like Korea or Vietnam. Of all the military conflicts in the last 50 years, this is one of the few where US involvement is justified.
And if we have equipment that’s just sitting around collecting dust, and Ukraine can use it for the purpose it was intended for, while at the same time making Putin look weak, and actually weakening Russia militarily, then it’s kind of a no-brainer, isn’t it? Why does the federal government spend so much money on defense if not for these exact kinds of situations?
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Porktown
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/27 11:49:12
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This is also sending a message to China, who are without a doubt the biggest of the threats to the USA. Who are sitting back and observing in detail. They will calculate how long the US is providing aid, how public opinion is swayed, and compare to their objectives in the South China Sea expansion. If they invade Taiwan, it would be similar in us providing aid. Likely not take nearly as long for them though. If they invade Japan or Philippines, it is our troops. We want to avoid that as long as possible. So, sending a clear message that we will not back down from our allies, is what matters the most. Maybe Biden should withhold aid from Taiwan until they provide dirt on Trump. Then talk about pulling out of any protection agreements with any nations in the region. That would show strength to Xi and ensure them not invading. Right? Also a reminder of who is aiding Russia. Iran and North Korea, militarily. China economically. So, if you really support Israel and their proxy war with Iran, you should likely look a bit deeper between ties to Russia. If Iran gains nuclear weapons, which they likely have, it is 100% with the assistance of Russia. They aren't supplying thousands of drones for free to Russia.
post edited by Porktown - 2024/09/27 11:51:03
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ICE NUT
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/27 13:21:53
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Funny how billions can be found for Ukraine with the drop of a pen BUT a lousy 3 billion that had to be begged for and left in suspense for our own veterans disabilities in service our OUR country had to wait to the last minute of a 3 month time frame. The 12 billion for next fiscal year for veterans programs and health care is now up in air in the government shutdown Bull chit.But again our worthless heroes in DC will come up with all kind of money for everyone else but the people who have sacrificed and suffered for the defense of this country.
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r3g3
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/27 15:58:04
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Letting them fight and protect their country from Russia isnt a bad thing imho. Problem with the 8 Billion is that it comes right after Zelenski came and essentially did a campaign stop for Harris. Now that Trump seems to be climbing the polls Zelensky is meeting with him too, I know they guy is in a tough spot but get outa our politics.
post edited by r3g3 - 2024/09/27 17:08:57
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Porktown
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/27 17:20:58
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r3g3
I know they guy is in a tough spot but get outa our politics.
Never heard of the guy before someone made a perfect phone call to him. Withholding defense funding before being invaded, unless he would make a statement about Hunter Biden during the last campaign. You do realize, this is the same guy. The one that was dragged into US politics by Kamala Harris…
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DeadGator401
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/27 20:32:31
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Porktown
r3g3
I know they guy is in a tough spot but get outa our politics.
Never heard of the guy before someone made a perfect phone call to him. Withholding defense funding before being invaded, unless he would make a statement about Hunter Biden during the last campaign. You do realize, this is the same guy. The one that was dragged into US politics by Kamala Harris…
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BloodyHand
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/27 21:07:27
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The problem is Ukraine is a crooked azz country. There's no accountability of the $$$ sent to them and how much of that money actually makes it to the battlefield. And to add fuel to the $$$ fire. You have one of the most untransparent administration in american history giving money to one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Makes you go hmmm. That's my 2 cents, and no, I dont want 1 cents change.
BH
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DeadGator401
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/27 21:36:49
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☄ Helpfulby r3g3 2024/09/28 09:39:18
BloodyHand
The problem is Ukraine is a crooked azz country. There's no accountability of the $$$ sent to them and how much of that money actually makes it to the battlefield. And to add fuel to the $$$ fire. You have one of the most untransparent administration in american history giving money to one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Makes you go hmmm. That's my 2 cents, and no, I dont want 1 cents change.
BH
Here's a dogecoin in change - Do you really think Ukraine would be where they were without foreign financial and equipment backing? Sure, might be corrupt. I'm no expert. But I have to assume something is getting through. Those Patriot missile systems sure got there in the right hands.
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Mitchell
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/27 21:57:28
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☄ Helpfulby r3g3 2024/09/28 09:40:09
Porktown
Never heard of the guy before someone made a perfect phone call to him. Withholding defense funding before being invaded, unless he would make a statement about Hunter Biden during the last campaign. You do realize, this is the same guy. The one that was dragged into US politics by Kamala Harris…
I can't believe the crap you're still pedaling. Trump withheld $100 million dollars to get to the bottom of why Hunter Biden was given a $1 million a year position on a Ukranian energy company board when he had absolutely no expertise in gas and oil, and BTW, the year was 2017. Russia didn't invade Ukraine until Feb. of '22, or did you mean the other invasion? That was in 2014, but wait, that was on Obama's watch. You're friggin' carpin' about $100 mil, (which was eventually given to Ukraine), but you seem OK with 63 billion with not one single statement of accounting from Ukraine. No f$%kin' wonder the countries goin' to hell in a handbasket. Folks only care about what Trump did. Everybody else is ok.
post edited by Mitchell - 2024/09/27 21:58:43
Whenever you want to know what the Democrats are up to, watch what they accuse the other side of doing.
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Porktown
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/27 22:03:14
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BloodyHand
The problem is Ukraine is a crooked azz country. There's no accountability of the $$$ sent to them and how much of that money actually makes it to the battlefield. And to add fuel to the $$$ fire. You have one of the most untransparent administration in american history giving money to one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Makes you go hmmm. That's my 2 cents, and no, I dont want 1 cents change.
BH
Please name some examples of Ukraine being one of the most corrupt countries in the world under their current administration. Under Viktor Yanukovych, 100%. The country has voted “western” and then “Russian”, then pro western. When they are pro-Russian, no doubt, corruption is what caused mass protest and the ouster of Yanukovych. This entire war is about them pulling away from that corrupt Russian way. And your answer is, welp you used to be pro Russian corrupt, you’re standing up to them, but since you used to let them bully you, no help… Not a dig at you, but anyone commenting. The modern history of Ukraine is pretty limited from the fall of the Soviet Union. Not all that much to learn. Most of it, for most of us on this board were headlines through the past 20 years. Look it up for 10 minutes. You will be like, oh yeah, I remember that. Dang, Putin has been trying to raw dog this country for a long time… But Putin says he isn’t and since he says so, why not believe him?
post edited by Porktown - 2024/09/27 22:13:02
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fishin coyote
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/28 06:49:49
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Nothing is Free!! Reward equals Effort
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woodnickle
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/28 10:27:43
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genieman77
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/28 11:26:35
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it's Europe's war, not ours.
the EU is more than financially able to take care of their own back yard.
Same for MidEast (another one we're being sucked into) it's Israel's war, not ours
..L.T.A.
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bigfoot
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/28 15:56:56
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We the world’s piggy bank. Government keeps cranking up the presses to print more money with no hard assets to back it up. I believe things were better until they went off the gold standard back in 1971. We keep running up deficits after deficit. No wonder prices are so high. I’m no economist ( nor did I ever play one on tv) but I would imagine that a dollar now isn’t worth as much as it used to be. I think the Feds should pass a budget and stick to it and quit passing these continuing resolutions. All they do is kick the can down the road. What a sorry bunch on both sides of the aisle!
As far as my thoughts on Ukraine I’m reminded of an old saying.
Charity begins at home.
How did the person who invented the first clock know what time it was?
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DeadGator401
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/28 16:59:05
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genieman77
it's Europe's war, not ours.
the EU is more than financially able to take care of their own back yard.
Same for MidEast (another one we're being sucked into) it's Israel's war, not ours
..L.T.A.
NATO exists for a reason friend.
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genieman77
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/28 18:15:25
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DeadGator401
genieman77
it's Europe's war, not ours.
the EU is more than financially able to take care of their own back yard.
Same for MidEast (another one we're being sucked into) it's Israel's war, not ours
..L.T.A.
NATO exists for a reason friend.
'cept this isn't a NATO war, Neighbor and...NATO membership doesn't mean we bankroll and take the lead on Europe's war this isn't 1939 the EU (European Union) is a modern, industrialized, wealthy group more than capable of handling THEIR war. Our tax dollars bankrolling THEIR war is bullsh1t when they're more than capable. ..L.T.A.
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crappiefisher
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/28 18:23:48
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r3g3
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/28 19:00:56
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This is why Trump insisted NATO start investing their fair share or we would get out,
Most started spending in accordance with their agreed upon amounts--and then Ukraine happened and they could more easily help.
Of course many here will find fault with Trumps actions--as usual
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DeadGator401
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/28 22:03:43
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genieman77
DeadGator401
genieman77
it's Europe's war, not ours.
the EU is more than financially able to take care of their own back yard.
Same for MidEast (another one we're being sucked into) it's Israel's war, not ours
..L.T.A.
NATO exists for a reason friend.
'cept this isn't a NATO war, Neighbor
and...NATO membership doesn't mean we bankroll and take the lead on Europe's war
this isn't 1939
the EU (European Union) is a modern, industrialized, wealthy group more than capable of handling THEIR war.
Our tax dollars bankrolling THEIR war is bullsh1t when they're more than capable.
..L.T.A.
The point is a war in Europe tends to spread, to the entire world. With NATO existing, an unchecked Russia would likely start WW3 by going after one of the countries. The EU is giving aide to Ukraine, just not at what the US is: https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/
That site's pretty cool, shows tanks and IFV's, and other weaponry provided by country.
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r3g3
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/29 04:06:57
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I know they arent in Nato-thanks for the friendly enlightenment effort though neighbor. Nato is now much more able to assist them after Trumps insisting they spend their share on defense. That was the point and I am sure many got it, todays internal politics here in the US aside.
post edited by r3g3 - 2024/09/29 04:09:00
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genieman77
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/29 08:36:38
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DeadGator401
The point is a war in Europe tends to spread, to the entire world. With NATO existing, an unchecked Russia would likely start WW3 by going after one of the countries.
Forgive my cynicism, but I've heard the "domino theory" before. It led to millions dead and 58,000 of our own My point is, EU should be the leadership and financial/mil hardware backing It's THEIR war, not ours I'll support sharing intel and humanitarian aid. I'll not support being the world's police boss ..L.T.A.
post edited by genieman77 - 2024/09/29 08:37:47
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genieman77
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/29 08:51:43
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Russia invokes its nuclear capacity in UN speech | AP News He was critical of the geopolitical and military expansion of NATO, saying, “It is now trying to take root in the south Caucusus, in central Asia, creating direct threats to the security of our country.” NATO has partnerships with the three south Caucusus countries – Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan — and all central Asian countries except Afghanistan. But none is a NATO member. “And now the same is happening in the Asia-Pacific region, where NATO infrastructure is creeping in to contain or deter China and Russia,” he told the assembly.Lavrov accused the United States of seeking “to preserve their hegemony and to govern everything.” He pointed to NATO’s deepening relations with four partners – New Zealand, Australia, South Korea and Japan — as well as the so-called Quad which groups the U.S., India, Australia and Japan. ................................................................................................................................. If'n you can put yourself in Igor's shoes for a minute... Do any of you war hawks and mil industrial complex share holders think Russia may have a reason for concern? What's being done in Russia's view, would be equivalent to nukes in Cuba and fostering mil alliances in Mexico and Canada ..L.T.A.
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MyWar
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/29 10:02:38
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☄ Helpfulby r3g3 2024/09/29 14:16:43
genieman77
it's Europe's war, not ours.
the EU is more than financially able to take care of their own back yard.
Same for MidEast (another one we're being sucked into) it's Israel's war, not ours
..L.T.A.
Ok so it’s Europe’s problem. Why? Because they are far away, geographically speaking? Does that also mean China is Asia’s problem? Does that also mean Iran is the middle east’s problem? Is your argument that we should only be concerned about international threats that are in close geographical proximity? Canada and Mexico aren’t much of a threat, so we don’t really need a strong military at all then do we? Should we just cut military spending? Trump says things like “we need to build the biggest strongest military we’ve ever had”, so do you disagree with that? And what about that fact that rogue nations like China, Russia and Iran don’t seem to be interested in isolationism, and they are more than happy to share military aid, intel, and technology with each other? Should we care? Germany and Japan allied together and tried to take over an entire continent. If Russia and China are trying to do the same thing now, right in front of us, are you really saying it’s not our problem? I’m not trying to straw man you here, but I am trying to understand what your logic is and how it looks when you apply it consistently.
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MyWar
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/29 10:10:03
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☄ Helpfulby r3g3 2024/09/29 14:17:09
genieman77
Russia invokes its nuclear capacity in UN speech | AP News
He was critical of the geopolitical and military expansion of NATO, saying, “It is now trying to take root in the south Caucusus, in central Asia, creating direct threats to the security of our country.”
NATO has partnerships with the three south Caucusus countries – Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan — and all central Asian countries except Afghanistan. But none is a NATO member. “And now the same is happening in the Asia-Pacific region, where NATO infrastructure is creeping in to contain or deter China and Russia,” he told the assembly.
Lavrov accused the United States of seeking “to preserve their hegemony and to govern everything.” He pointed to NATO’s deepening relations with four partners – New Zealand, Australia, South Korea and Japan — as well as the so-called Quad which groups the U.S., India, Australia and Japan.
.................................................................................................................................
If'n you can put yourself in Igor's shoes for a minute...
Do any of you war hawks and mil industrial complex share holders think Russia may have a reason for concern?
What's being done in Russia's view, would be equivalent to nukes in Cuba and fostering mil alliances in Mexico and Canada
..L.T.A.
WHY should you put yourself in putin’s shoes? Should we do this for all of current enemies? Do you “put yourself in Iran’s shoes”? Do you “put yourself in China’s shoes”? H3ll, do you even put yourself in a Democratic voter’s shoes when you think about American domestic politics? I’m gonna go out on a limb here, and guess that the answer to these questions is “no”. So then why are you taking such a sympathetic approach to a poor, murderous dictator like Putin?
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MyWar
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/29 10:12:48
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☄ Helpfulby r3g3 2024/09/29 14:17:24
MyWar
genieman77
it's Europe's war, not ours.
the EU is more than financially able to take care of their own back yard.
Same for MidEast (another one we're being sucked into) it's Israel's war, not ours
..L.T.A.
Ok so it’s Europe’s problem. Why? Because they are far away, geographically speaking?
Does that also mean China is Asia’s problem? Does that also mean Iran is the middle east’s problem?
Is your argument that we should only be concerned about international threats that are in close geographical proximity? Canada and Mexico aren’t much of a threat, so we don’t really need a strong military at all then do we? Should we just cut military spending? Trump says things like “we need to build the biggest strongest military we’ve ever had”, so do you disagree with that?
And what about that fact that rogue nations like China, Russia and Iran don’t seem to be interested in isolationism, and they are more than happy to share military aid, intel, and technology with each other? Should we care?
Germany and Japan allied together and tried to take over an entire continent. If Russia and China are trying to do the same thing now, right in front of us, are you really saying it’s not our problem?
I’m not trying to straw man you here, but I am trying to understand what your logic is and how it looks when you apply it consistently.
Oh yea and then there’s also the fact that Russia’s defense of “I feel threatened” is total bullshiit.
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Porktown
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/29 10:34:25
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MyWar
H3ll, do you even put yourself in a Democratic voter’s shoes when you think about American domestic politics?
Don’t be silly. That is America’s problem.
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r3g3
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Re: Aid to Ukraine
2024/09/29 14:18:36
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Never agreed with War so much as today --except on some fishing issues lol
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