Helpful ReplyYOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS

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BeenThereDoneThat.
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2018/10/11 11:50:25 (permalink)

YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS

Not wanting to burn a great thread, moved my thoughts on this subject from another board.
 
 
dpms
....... it is hard to believe that we have hunters in this state that oppose youth hunting seasons and opportunities.

 
 


Opposition is why you have the opportunity's you have today. There would be no hunting if it weren't for hunters questioning the intentions and/or abuse of programs.


Many of the older hunters still heading to the fields and forest never had "youth hunting programs" and they hunted many a day without bagging game,  yet are back at it every year.  So what motivated the youth of yesteryear?

Lastly, just who does benefit from "youth hunting seasons" and/or other special programs like a $25.00 pheasant stamp? 
 
Could these same great stories have been possible during regular season?

I think so.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2018/10/11 12:01:59

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#1
DarDys
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/11 15:00:52 (permalink)
The issue I see with that train of thought is that when we were youths hunting and fishing was what we did. We did it because 1) some older person did it; 2) there wasn’t a whole lot else to do; and 3) there was plenty of game to be seen and shot (at, at least). Unfortunately, those three things are no longer a given.

Fewer and fewer adults are fishing and even fewer are hunting. So no longer does everyone’s Dad or Uncle or neighbor or any other adult (still required for hunters younger than 16) automatically take a kid hunting when they reach that magical age of 12.

Let me relay two examples.

First one occurred during the very first youth pheasant season. I worked for a semi rural company that employed 1,200 people, almost all of the country folk. I put up a sign in the cafeteria that I would offer the services of my two champion English Pointers and myself to the first five youth hunters that signed up for a morning hunt and five more for the afternoon. I got a whopping 4 sign ups.

We hunted the AM and put up nearly 40 birds. All hunters got shooting, but all were clear misses(this showed how little practice they had at shooting anything, especially those that approached 16).

The next year, I put up the sign up sheet and I got exactly ZERO participation. I went to the parents of those that hunted the previous year and asked why they weren’t going this year. The answers ranged from they have a soccer game to they didn’t see the point since they didn’t kill any last year to they are going to a birthday party that evening and they didn’t want to get tired out to after not seoany deer, they no longer wish to hunt.

The second story is about the knife I took to Africa. I asked the father of the boy whom I wanted to give the knife to if his other, older son would be offended that his brother got it and his response was “Unless it is a video game or has to do with baseball, he could not care less.” Keep in mind this is a hunting, fishing, shooting, camping, Boy Scout father and family and only one kid cared about hunting and fishing at all.

With regard to other things to do, when you were in that 12 years range, was there soccer, laser tag, smart phones, endless TV and internet content, traveling sports leagues, video games that made hunting a warm, no rain or snow, no blood and guts, indoor sport that didn’t require getting up before the butt crack of dawn and they always see animals to shoot.

As for seeing game, when I was in that 12 year old range, we had beagles. I cannot recall a day that we didn’t have rabbits running. In fact, we had competitions to see who shot the most. You better have an average of 3 per day against a limit of 4 or there was no hope of winning. In addition, with 1 million (vs. less than 200,000) pheasants stocked, we often killed a limit of bunnies and birds before lunch.

I shot my first buck with a rifle at age 14 (missed my share for the 2 years before) and had a run of 32 consecutive successful buck years until the effects of AR/HR brought that to a halt. Now, if I see 10 deer in rifle season, let alone at one time, it’s a good season.

So it just isn’t the same opportunity we had.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/11 18:10:29 (permalink)
I had no soccer and no internet games just baseball, basketball, football, golf, tennis, swimming, and many also had some sort of part time work. As for electronic games, plenty of arcade games, if they might count.
You say the wild game we had in the day, no longer exist and that's reason for special youth hunts? So what happens when the youth become adult hunters, and there's no longer, specially stocked hunts?



Thus far this year, I have spent a whopping $15.00 for hunting season and the two major purchases made, remain in the pink envelope they came in.

As for ARs, time and time again, I've had to pass on a "sub-legal" buck only to see it hanging on a barn up the road, from my happy hunting grounds.

So who does benefit and how.

FYI, I've offered my land as well as contact info to a local instructor for the purpose of youth hunts. Also, offered my shooting range for sighting in, practice, and/or patterning for turkey hunting etc.

I understand only two youth, took advantage of the early turkey hunt.

Seems like an awful lot of effort to benefit who?
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2018/10/11 18:12:50

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#3
EMitch
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/11 19:42:24 (permalink)
There were no games in my family when we were kids. Dad always said "you never get hurt workin', you get hurt playin!" Dad didn't fish, but he'd take us and made sure we had some type of equipment that would work. But we did hunt. My older brother wasn't much for rabbit hunting, and he bein' 2 years older than me, I used his license and Model 12 Winchester and went small game huntin' with Dad when I was only 10 years old. There were hundreds of places to hunt back then, and game was plentiful. No problem to get a limit of rabbits and a few birds too. There were lots of wild ring neck pheasants that would explode up out of a field, cackling as they flew. (Not like the pen raised Chinese chickens they stock today). Dad always had a beagle, so when I came of age, so did I, and as my oldest boy turned 12, I went to the Sportsman Club with him for his training course to get his license. When my second oldest turned 12, same deal, and I went to the course again. But #2 son never really cared for hunting. Number 3 son has never had a hunting license, but is an avid fisherman. And now, none of my grand kids are interested in hunting. If they can't do it with their thumbs, then it don't matter. I can't see needing any special youth hunting seasons since the world has speeded up; even the adults barely have time to hunt. If they want to do something, they should at least allow Sunday hunting. The average working man today is lucky to get a couple of Saturdays in small game, and maybe take a vacation day for the first day of Buck season, and maybe 1st and 2nd Saturdays. I gave up hunting in 1995 when the last beagle died. There's no place to hunt anymore anyway. All my good bunny patches have 10 new homes sittin' on them, and even if they're still surrounded by small game cover, you're in the Safety Zone, and that's a no-no. Hunting just ain't the same now days. All the new rules; ie semi-automatics, cap lock black powder, silencers, cross-bows, etc. The insurance industries have some powerful lobbyists, and the auto insurers want every deer in PA killed. Last year that I hunted, I only saw 6 deer, a far cry from 40 or 50 I'd see and that was in Northern McKean county. And today, you have a lot of hunters out there that live by the motto: If it's brown, it's goin' down!
Aw, now I've talked myself right into depression.
post edited by EMitch - 2018/10/11 19:45:16

Liberalism is standing on your head and telling the rest of the world that they're upside down.
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/11 20:27:30 (permalink)
Yeah Mitch sometimes the truth do hurt.

I remember the days of the rabbit. Every morning before school and every afternoon after school during trapping season with burlap sack, I was checking my box traps in hopes of turning in a few bunnies for spending money.

Always wondered if the game warden (as they were known back them days) did transport all those rabbits and stock other areas or if he enjoyed hasenpfeffer.

Can't say as I ever shot at anything other than stocked ditch chickens but I do remember when Mercer county was mostly off limits, for many years, to hunting the ringless bird from China. Man those birds where everywhere, till they opened season and quit stocking.

Some may remember a mass stocking of birds from the mid Atlantic states? These birds were stocked in the North West corner of Venango County around 1995 in an area practically, on my front door step. Geez, I got so excited I ran out and purchased my first German Shorthaired Pointer. The following winter we got powdered with snow and cold temps.... so much for the hearty birds from the midwest.

All that money spent trying to fix something that wasn't broke ... so who benefited?
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2018/10/11 20:30:50

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
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mopars0
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/11 23:14:37 (permalink)
I’m 67 and I remember hunting with my dad and grandfather starting at 12 yrs old. We lived next to my grandparents farm , always was hunting rabbits & squirrels and yes always had beagles dogs we treated them good and they always treated us good in return for small game. My grandmother always had excellent rabbit and squirrel meals ( yummy ) 👍...couldn’t Wait for deer season ... loved it and had a ball , took me a few years also before I got one tagged . I remember by time I was 15 or 16 i couldn’t Wait to get home from school and hit my favorite little spot about 100 yds up in the woods near my grandparents Spring were it was always a good place to sit near dark ..my dad worked afternoons so if I got lucky enough to tag one and if my grandfather heard me shot he would jump on the tractor and come up to were I was and we would load it on the tractor to get it to the barn ... man I miss those days... now son still hunts but sometimes with his work doesn’t get out as much as he would like . Last year we did manage to get him a doe, 3 grandsons ... 2 in their 20’s love hunting 1 (13) not so much but also likes to fish so at least I get to enjoy fishing time with him..

STEVE.
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fallschirmjaeger
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/12 06:45:02 (permalink)
I'm 38.  I grew up with endless video games and TV....AND 2-stroke dirtbikes.   I grew up with parents who not only did not hunt and fish, but they did not support the killing of wild animals.  They did however, enjoy hikes in the woods and taught me a great deal about the names, species, etc of flora and fauna.  
 
At some point in my life, I took interest in not only the outdoors as a place to go for a walk or learn about trees, but also a place to recreate in the form of hunting and fishing.  I had no teachers, save for the internet and good old fashioned trial and error.  I am now commonly referred to as "obsessed".  All of my vacation days are not spent on the beach like the rest of my family, but spend afield.  I've earned and experienced my fair share of hunting/fishing successes and victories, which I felt at one time were unobtainable.  
 
My point is, there will always be people who are drawn to this life of woods and stream; of rifles and rods.  It's the call of the wild; a draw to something primordial, which there is no substitute for.  Granted in this age, we have modern weapons, modern materials, carbon fiber, braided lines, high velocity powders, crystal clear scopes, etc, but the chase is, has been, and always will be the same.  It's a passion.  Nothing gets my blood pumping, heart beating out of my chest or body shaking quite like when the sky just starts to get light over a duck swamp.  Anticipation, anxiety, fear, excitement, silence and then from no where...the whistling of wings.  Who needs drugs?  It makes me tingle just thinking about it.  
 
I never experienced any youth hunting as a kid.  I bought my first hunting license when I was 20 years old.  
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rsquared
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/12 09:21:54 (permalink)
IMHO, hunting and fishing participation is declining not so much because of lazy or disinterested kids, as it is because of delusional, obsessive parents.  And really, the design and intention behind many of these youth programs is to recruit new hunters and fishers to our ranks.  
 
I've got a 17 year old daughter (she like fishing once in awhile until she was about 10 but otherwise has zero interest in hunting and fishing), and my boys are 14 and 8.  I'm telling yinz, there are so many parents today that are absolutely convinced that their kid is a D1 athlete, or will be the next great dancer, musician or artist.  I stopped drinking that Kool Aid about 5 years ago, and as a result, my boys would rather fish and hunt (the 14 year old) than do anything else.  They like their video games and Netflix, but neither one of them has EVER refused an opportunity to go fishing and the oldest has never refused an opportunity to hunt.  
 
I could tell yinz story after story of their friends that have parents that grew up with the outdoors as part of the fabric of their lives - much like the stories being told here - but they've made little to no effort to get their kids in the woods or on the water because at 8 or 9 years old, every kid has to specialize in one sport year round.  
 
For those of you who don't have kids in youth sports, all the rage now is to get your kid in an AAU program in soccer, basketball or baseball and pay an "expert" or team of "experts" $thousand$ a year to make your kid a great athlete so he or she can get one of those coveted athletic scholarships and so that parents can relive their glory days through their kids.  
 
It's sad.  It's delusional thinking.  It's insanity.  Often it borders on emotional and psychological abuse.  
 
I love, love, love, love the youth hunting and fishing programs for a couple reasons.  Primary among them is that I get to get my boys in situations where the riff rafff and bad sportsmen are largely absent.  Call me a prude, or call me old fashioned, but I think it's pretty pathetic to have my boys on the water somewhere around grown men who have to throw in an F bomb every other word and just act like morons in general.  
 
On the mentored youth trout days, we don't have to share the stream with low lifes that feel the need to low hole a kid, or cast across the stream and tangle a kid's line, so that they can fill a stringer with trout.  It's a time when parents, grandparents and other family members can take their kids out to enjoy a low pressure day without having to worry about obnoxious behavior from other adults.  We've done the mentored youth trout thing for the last 3 years, and I've not seen a single adult abusing the opportunity for their own benefit.  
 
I've done pheasant openers and duck openers on state game lands before, and I'd think twice or thrice before I took my kid into that situation.   
 
Here's where I'll be real honest and say that I don't think that these special youth programs and opportunities are really doing much to recruit new hunters and fishermen though.  
 
For people like me who are already committed to raising their kids in the woods and on the water, it creates bonus opportunities.  And some pretty great ones at that.  It's awesome to take my boys and their friends to fully stocked trout streams and get the first crack at them before they're roped up and stored in a freezer for a year before they're thrown away.  It was awesome to take my son to a game lands last Saturday and hunt pheasants that - judging by their behavior - hadn't been hunted that morning before we got there at 11:15.  
 
The very small handful of my kids' friends who are being raised the same way benefit from these opportunities.  
 
For the very large number of my kids' friends that have parents that grew up in the outdoors but otherwise don't make it a priority to get their kids out hunting and fishing because they're delusional about their kids' athletic ability, I would say that these programs aren't making much of a difference.  Again, that's a very small sample size and totally anecdotal, but I don't see these parents doing anything different because there's a new or special opportunity for their kids.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
#8
Moses Guthrie
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/12 09:55:40 (permalink)
R*2 you are spot on with your post.

After for youth sports today, we went through the same experience, the pressure put on some of these kids by their parents n coaches is insane.
A couple falls ago we decided to sit out fall ball after having games 4 nights a week the year before which ran into winter clinics and classes right into spring baseball season. Best thing we ever did. Was a very enjoyable fall for everyone, so we scaled back even more after that.

I also agree that the programs don't help with recruitment, but those days are very enjoyable time time to enjoy the outdoors with kids. There are guys that abuse the seasons, but you will always have that. It is well worth it to see the kids have a blast.
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CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/12 11:51:49 (permalink)
One of the biggest issues to outdoor sports today for young and even older participants to stay interested is having ACCESS ! 
 
Without access or limiting access to streams , lakes, and woodlands one quickly looses interest in these sports. Limited access areas produces higher numbers of people in these areas and creates congestion along with non sportsmen like conduct ......all negative . 
 
Growing up in a small town in the 60's we had access to hunting and fishing only walking a mile or so from home. Those same areas are now truck terminals , homes, and businesses ....gone ! When we were able to drive one could ride in the country and rarely see a posted or keep out sign. Today it's almost all posted along with farm fields that look as nice as golf courses. Game lands are far and in between and over populated with people hunting or just over pressured. So today there are very limited public choices mostly toward hunting.
 
As outdoor access area choices shrink for hunting and fishing so do the future numbers.
 
The youth programs are great , gives them a taste without competing against adults in these programs , whether they help or not ?....time will tell.      
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/12 12:01:32 (permalink)
I agree with the "different atmosphere" but could it also be said the same vulgararity and anger is working it's way onto the fields of school programs? Honestly, I don't know why anyone would want to coach, let alone officiate, such sports?

No question about the joy experienced by a parent/mentor as they observe the success of a young person.

I can't argue the reasons why some parents push school sports on their children. Be it in hopes of a scholarship or just to have the kids experience and learn to be a team player. Not much of a chance for a scholarship for a kid killing a..... errrr harvesting a 'real wall hanger' of a elusive PA. White Tailed Antlerless Deer.

Although, plenty of college sports programs for fishing, golfing, etc. if parents can afford to get their children into a college but still, one must have expirence before acceptance in those programs.


Anyways, I have enjoyed the opinions expressed thus far. 👍

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#11
dpms
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 08:20:38 (permalink)
I support youth hunting and fishing opportunities.
I support no age restriction on hunting and fishing. 
I wish more folks would take their kids hunting and fishing. 
Increasing divorce rates are playing a larger role in the decrease in kids in the outdoors.
It is well researched that the earlier a kid is introduced to an activity, the more likely they are to continue on with it.
As hunter numbers keep decreasing, we should be removing barricades that limit participation.
As hunters numbers decrease, our foundation to fight against anti-hunting agendas becomes weaker.
I could go on and on but won't. 
 
I would ask BeenThere a question. Who is negatively impacted by youth hunting initiatives?
 
 

My rifle is a black rifle
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psu_fish
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 10:36:05 (permalink)
Absolutely no reason a 5 year old should be in the woods, with a centerfire rifle, shooting a deer. I do not care how close the adult mentor is sitting next to the kid.

99.9% of these kids are not ready to handle a centerfire.

I carried a 270 around when I was 12, with my dad and uncles in 1998, before all this mentored youth crap. Looking back, I was not ready for a gun of that size. I shot a whole box of ammo and hit nothing but dirt and trees. Didnt kill a deer till I was 14, and even then, I had to have a bipod, and the doe I sot was inside 30 yards.

I dont care if these 5 year olds are using 223, they are not ready or safe to be shooting rifles.

That program is totally abused. Mentored youth should start at age 10. Give them two years to get a taste of hunting.
post edited by psu_fish - 2018/10/13 10:38:05
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 11:04:13 (permalink)
dpms

 
I would ask BeenThere a question. Who is negatively impacted by youth hunting initiatives?
 
 


I thought you would never ask!!!

My answer is those who benefit from the programs. That would be those who exploit the programs to further their agenda. That would be the PGC as well as the industry involved with production of any product produced for a particular activity. A big impact would surely be felt by "research groups", wudda ya think?

By your very comments you admit hunter numbers continue to decline which indicate young hunters do not carry on. You also say there is a need to remove "barricades" that limit participation. Are you speaking of barricades that have been imposed causing the older hunters to give up?

Speaking of older hunters, would that category involve only "babyboomers" or does it include the "young" hunters who have now become of age and must abide by the new rules? Different world I'm thinkin'. Welcome to reality.

Back to this research thingy, got any idea how much money is spent by the PGC/PFBC telling you what you want to hear? Information like "divorce" being a key factor in young people not participating in hunting/fishing and cause for falling numbers among the young?

No age limit? What a great scheme that one is. I didn't start spending money buying hunting equipment, clothing, etc. for my son until he was 12 years of age. (one of them barricades I suppose). Today, parent(s) will begin spending money much earlier for much longer.

Your research says  kid introduced into an outdoor sport at an earlier age is more "likely" to continue.

Reality says a child "earning" the right rather be "given" the right will continue on, as well as, passing it on.

I have nothing against "mentored hunting" but I no longer participate. I can't take a young person into a field of "make believe" knowing full well, what the young hunter will see when they become of age and enter the "field(s) of reality".


So, who does benefit, from the "youth programs"?


PS. Thanks for asking and good hunting.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2018/10/13 14:53:31

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
#14
psu_fish
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 11:24:04 (permalink)
Curious why DPMS mentions supporting no age limits on fishing? There never has been a restriction, other than having to buy a license at 16. And little Johnny isnt on the water with a deadly weapon.

Always wondered why PFBC didnt push for license age to be 12 to mirror PGC. They are missing out on 4 years of revenue.
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 11:44:56 (permalink)
Carefully what ya wish for PSU. The PFBC did follow the "antlerless license" with the "trout stamp" and as does the PGC AR scheme, loading specific areas to force anglers to purchase a trout stamp. Keep an eye on Shenango if trout are caught in the lake. This coming ice season my just be the year.

I'll stand corrected but only if time tells.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2018/10/13 14:55:19

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
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CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 12:29:09 (permalink)
psu_fish
Absolutely no reason a 5 year old should be in the woods, with a centerfire rifle, shooting a deer. I do not care how close the adult mentor is sitting next to the kid.

99.9% of these kids are not ready to handle a centerfire.

I dont care if these 5 year olds are using 223, they are not ready or safe to be shooting rifles.

That program is totally abused. Mentored youth should start at age 10. Give them two years to get a taste of hunting.


 I have to agree !
 
I stand corrected ....I didn't know that youth hunters were allowed at such a young age .I just thought the early youth hunts were a good idea as far as season openers. Giving them a better
opportunity without adult competition.
 
 I find it hard to believe divorce rates are a major cause of young people not being able to hunt or fish..(BS !) Most of my friends that hunted had no father mentors....my dad never hunted ever.
I still blame no local areas to hunt as the major villain ! What incentive is there to go hunting if you have to drive 20 miles away or more and hunt areas. Then you still have to worry about trespassing across neighbors property while your hunting on land with permission.
 
Those private hunting clubs are too blame too....go ahead and post more land for yourselves. Hunters against hunters ....that's just great for the sport !
 
 Nothing worse than driving in prime hunting areas and see nothing but posted signs on trees for miles both sides of the roads.....and most of those land owners refuse even if you ask ....I know first hand...... no wonder young kids have no incentive to hunt.
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rsquared
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 13:11:58 (permalink)
CAPTAIN HOOK
 
I stand corrected ....I didn't know that youth hunters were allowed at such a young age .I just thought the early youth hunts were a good idea as far as season openers. Giving them a better
opportunity without adult competition.
 



There are opportunities for junior hunters (age 12-16) that are different from the Mentored Youth Program (kids under 12 who have not taken HTE and must sit next to an adult in limited seasons, but can take the shot).  
 
For the last couple weeks, there was a squirrel season for junior hunters, but not mentored youth.  
 
For the last couple weeks, there was a rabbit season for junior hunters, but not mentored youth.
 
From last Saturday through today, there was a pheasant season for junior hunters, but not mentored youth.  
 
Forget which one it was, but one Saturday in September, there was a statewide one day waterfowl hunt for junior hunters, but not mentored youth, where they could shoot ducks as well as the early season geese.  
 
Mentored youth hunting is limited to turkeys, deer (they get their own antlered tag, but the mentor/adult must supply the doe tag if they shoot a doe and can't hunt during any deer season that a junior hunter can hunt), squirrels and I believe coyotes and groundhogs too.  Basically, the youth cannot walk around with a gun, and there can only be one gun between the adult and the kid.  The adult must sit "within arm's reach" of the kid in all hunting situations.  
 
Not trying to change your mind on how ya feel about it, was just pointing out some of the differences.  
 
I started taking my oldest deer hunting when he was 9, and he did just fine with a .30/.30 and dropped a spike with one shot.  At age 11, he dropped a 9 point with a .243.  Shooting off of sticks both times, and shots under 40 yards.  I wouldn't have allowed him to shoot much further than that anyway, unless it was a wide open shot.    
 
My youngest son is 8, and in my mind, is on the edge of being mentally and physically ready to hunt deer.  He can shoot a little .22 I have, and I'm about to take him out for squirrels for the second time.  
 
I wouldn't be opposed to a bottom end age limit on the Mentored Program either, but I also do know some kids that could handle shooting off of sticks with a crossbow or rifle at age 6 or 7.  But my boys were not, so I didn't take them out at that age.  
#18
dpms
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 15:38:58 (permalink)
psu_fish
Absolutely no reason a 5 year old should be in the woods, with a centerfire rifle, shooting a deer. I do not care how close the adult mentor is sitting next to the kid.



Look up hunting related accidents in states that have no minimum age for hunting. After you do that, look up what age group is most likely to be involved in a hunting related accident. 

My rifle is a black rifle
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 15:42:04 (permalink)
Dave, you are the exception rather the rule.  Having read many of your threads, seen many of your pictures and having met you first hand I have to say you should qualify for "father of the year" as well as "poster dad" for "parents being involved".  Unfortunately far toooooo many parents do not exercise the the same quality standards as you and a few other parents.
 
I couldn't have agreed more with your comment, on a recent thread regarding the pressures applied to the young people by their parents and coaches.  Some, are truly trying to get the students to do their best but unfortunately, far too many coaches and parents are about themselves.  Least not forget those who abuse the programs for their own well being.
 
I might add, I never appreciated these new programs being reason to cause me to have to wear orange during archery season... dag nab-it.
 
 
 
Captain, don't know if you remember my original Avatar?  The pic with the "POSTED" sign as well as my many comments regarding acres and acres of hunting grounds being posted.  How about the responses telling me I was absolutely wrong as land owners were not posting their land?   Well, a few years ago, I saw an indication(a vision if you will) revealing things yet to come.   The indicator was there for everyone to see yet many were blinded (still are) by their denial to believe. 
 
You know stores like Tractor Supply and Walmart stay away from stocking merchandise that don't sell.  So why is it these stores, have been and continue to stock, "POSTED SIGNS"?  Must be sumbody is buyin em me thinks. 
 
If you ask me, (I dare ya) these stores are missing a fantastic advertising opportunity not having their name appear on the signs... there's tons of em around.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2018/10/13 15:51:50

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 15:48:43 (permalink)
dpms
psu_fish
Absolutely no reason a 5 year old should be in the woods, with a centerfire rifle, shooting a deer. I do not care how close the adult mentor is sitting next to the kid.



Look up hunting related accidents in states that have no minimum age for hunting. After you do that, look up what age group is most likely to be involved in a hunting related accident. 




 
Ratio between the age groups?  Statics can be made to tell any story you want to present.  It's called "Blowing Chyt Out of Proportion".

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
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CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 18:45:30 (permalink)
I see some parents or dad's as very good responsible teachers and mentors to young children. I see some others as exact opposites.  Problem is the young child can't tell the difference, and with a gun this is a dangerous situation for that unknowing child. An older kid might know or reason to remember gun safety somewhat better.
 
There was a young child shot by accident by his dad at Twig's Gun store in Mercer a few years ago. The father was placing a rifle back in the truck and it went off killing the young boy. Terrible accident , not a hunting accident, but a demonstration of an irresponsible person handling a sporting gun with a child. Who carries loaded rifles in cars especially with children ?  Idiots !  
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dpms
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 19:34:07 (permalink)
BeenThereDoneThat. 
Ratio between the age groups?  Statics can be made to tell any story you want to present.  It's called "Blowing Chyt Out of Proportion".



So you don't believe hunting related accident statistics? In other words, it just can't be true that young kids are safe hunters. 

My rifle is a black rifle
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psu_fish
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 19:47:38 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby CAPTAIN HOOK 2018/10/14 11:46:05
I 10000% believe a 5 year old cannot hold a rifle with the proper technique to humanly harvest a deer. Maybe little Johnny is sitting on his dad’s lap, but little Johnny aint pulling the trigger.

Most kids in kindergarten cannot tie their own shoes, so how do you expect them to shoot a centerfire rifle, and use the correct amount of eye relief in a scope
post edited by psu_fish - 2018/10/13 19:50:32
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BeenThereDoneThat.
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 20:42:40 (permalink)
dpms
BeenThereDoneThat. 
Ratio between the age groups?  Statics can be made to tell any story you want to present.  It's called "Blowing Chyt Out of Proportion".



So you don't believe hunting related accident statistics? In other words, it just can't be true that young kids are safe hunters. 




No Gene that's not what I said at all and just as I thought you might, you're spinning my comment.  No way can a fair comparison of accidents, be made between the numbers of juvenile vs numbers of adult hunters.  Unless of course a person wants to push their agenda then information, which in most cases cannot be substantiated (other than "Survey Says") is tossed at the opposition.  It's called cherry picking information that supports the agenda.
 
In addition, it's not if the child knows "right or wrong" it's the adult I question as knowing "right from wrong" let alone if he/she cares about "right from wrong".
 
Any organization, group or person for that matter,  can hire an outside "consulting firm" to produce the information needed for reports/surveys.  It's like going into a restaurant and ordering what you want to eat.  If the order is not to your expectations you send it back til it is what you want.
 
Truly, I have no problem with anyone at any age wanting to learn hunting.  BUT it "is" the "BS" that is tossed at me by people who's agenda is anything but "about the kids".  Especially the "survey says" BS!!
 
Hope this explains my side because I'm still undecided about "who" is benefiting from "It's about children" and it goes well beyond hunting.
 
Good hunting.
post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2018/10/13 20:47:01

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 21:17:52 (permalink)
PSU with all do respect, I have witnessed a father talking and teaching his 4 year old daughter gun safety every time her gun is taken from the case.  Then the young lady will, chamber a 22 cal. short and using a rest, sight through her scope and drill a target the size of a one gallon jug, 10 yds away.  You can rest assured dad is directly behind his daughter as she handles the gun, solely on her own.
 
Not disagreeing with questioning  the use of a high powered gun, at much longer ranges, while trying to control the excitement of shooting at game (let alone big game) just letting you know I was surprised as heck, seeing this child using a scope.
 
While on the subject of excitement, I do wonder if younger people do get as excited and experience that same heart pounding sensation as us old duffers?  What a shame if they don't.
 
Good hunting and tight lines. 

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
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rsquared
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 21:18:43 (permalink)
BeenThereDoneThat.
Dave, you are the exception rather the rule.  Having read many of your threads, seen many of your pictures and having met you first hand I have to say you should qualify for "father of the year" as well as "poster dad" for "parents being involved".  Unfortunately far toooooo many parents do not exercise the the same quality standards as you and a few other parents.
 
I couldn't have agreed more with your comment, on a recent thread regarding the pressures applied to the young people by their parents and coaches.  Some, are truly trying to get the students to do their best but unfortunately, far too many coaches and parents are about themselves.  Least not forget those who abuse the programs for their own well being.




Dang John, you're gonna make me blush!  haha.  Thanks for the kind words, but I'm pretty sure my kids would be among the first to tell ya that I'm probably not in any danger of winning father of the year.  
 
Anyway, it is a good discussion as it seems to be most every year and it's always good to evaluate your priorities and convictions.  
 
 
 
 
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/13 21:33:09 (permalink)
Ha haa Dave, ask the kids when they get older?  Betcha I'm right... as usual. 

Give a man a fish and you will feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you will feed him for a life time. ~Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie (1837–1919)~
 
 
 
  Old fisherman never die; we just smell that way. 
 
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dpms
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/14 12:34:51 (permalink)
BeenThereDoneThat.
No Gene that's not what I said at all and just as I thought you might, you're spinning my comment.  No way can a fair comparison of accidents, be made between the numbers of juvenile vs numbers of adult hunters.  Unless of course a person wants to push their agenda then information, which in most cases cannot be substantiated (other than "Survey Says") is tossed at the opposition.  It's called cherry picking information that supports the agenda.
 



I didn't spin anything. I said look up hunting related accidents in states where there is no minimum age. The information was poured over by our PGC when they first began discussing mentored youth programs. No information was found anywhere that showed a correlation between young hunters and hunting accidents that was proportionally higher than other age groups.  Several studies showed the greatest accident rates(accidents per participant) were among senior hunters. The theory referenced was that they become complacent with tried and true gun handling and safe hunting practices. 
 
I have heard this angle often; "You have to be 16 to drive because kids are not developed enough to safely drive". The problem with that angle is many studies all agree that the younger someone is, the more likely they are to be in a automobile accident. There is no such safety concerns documented for young hunters. 
 
post edited by dpms - 2018/10/14 12:44:37

My rifle is a black rifle
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dpms
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Re: YOUTH HUNTING PROGRAMS 2018/10/14 12:37:53 (permalink)
psu_fish
I 10000% believe a 5 year old cannot hold a rifle with the proper technique to humanly harvest a deer. Maybe little Johnny is sitting on his dad’s lap, but little Johnny aint pulling the trigger.

Most kids in kindergarten cannot tie their own shoes, so how do you expect them to shoot a centerfire rifle, and use the correct amount of eye relief in a scope



You would be wrong. 223 and 22/250 are common rounds used by kids for deer and they are quite successful with them. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying all 5 year olds are ready or capable. What I am saying is if they are, let them hunt with supervision of course. 

My rifle is a black rifle
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