^^^^

And that could happen regardless of weapon.

Where I used to hunt, the weapon of choice for those residing in the hunting camps was the Remington 760 GameMaster, usually in 30-06 or .270. Those folks could rattle off as many shots just as quickly as any semi. Some of them even had 20, yes 20, round magazines. And no one ever was in danger.

If they were carrying a 760, they had some sort of lever gun that had a rate of fire that was almost equal. Again, no one was in danger.

The rate of fire, other than the purely mechanical capability, is somewhat determined by the ability of the shooter to recover from the recoil of the previous shot (something that is rather moot with a .223, but I suspect that few will opt for that round for deer, although they could) and even if not accurately aimed, at least pointed in the very specific direction of a deer -- meaning they are at least, even with a slob sprayer, in the sights somewhat. It is highly doubtful that any number beyond a handful are going to assume a battle stance and just spray away without regard if they have a chance if hitting anything. And if that happens, put it on the shooter, not the weapon, because they would have done it no matter what hardware they were carrying.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not into military style weapons or even semis. I don't own any semis beyond my pistols (still prefer revolvers though) and one 28 gauge that I use for dog training. In fact, I have never even shot an AR type rifle and really have no desire to.

But I wouldn't mind semis so I could by my wife a Browning semi. At her physical size, the recoil of a bolt .243 that fits her is about the practical limit. A gas operated semi, which greatly reduces felt recoil, would greatly expand caliber options.

With all do respect Dardy's, I'll drop six casings on the ground using a semi-auto loading rifle for every round you squeeze off with a manual.



In addition to fire a manual loading weapon in the fashion you claim, while maintaining "sight on target" requires practice and discipline.

Anybody can pick up a semi-auto and empty a clip while keeping the weapon shouldered and rather doubtful, on target.

Even with the best gas operated recoil system it is still near impossible for the average Joe to stay on target while firing multiple shots. May I remind you short burst with full auto or two shot burst with semi-auto is the best options for accuracy.

Unfortunately, we are NOT speaking of professional or well seasoned shooters, using auto-loading weapons for hunting. We are talking about people who shouldn't be in the woods with a single shot air rifle who will now have the right to be using easy to operate rapid firing rifles. AND you can bet, these guns will be made cheaply having no gas or mechanically operated recoil system with the boys wanting the highest caliber they can get.

Good thing these auto-loading rifles have not been approved for the purpose of hunting deer.... YET.

Bad thing, the incompetent people who are now charged with making that decision.

BeenThereDoneThat.
I have to question why after all these years, is there a need for use of these weapons in PA?
PA. hunters have accepted our approved list of firearms for years.
So what is the true need for the use if semi-auto loading firearms in PA?
The hunters didn't need semi auto-loading rifles in the past so is this "about the gun or about (some) people"?

Is the litmus test for hunting laws and regulations whether they are "needed" or not?
 
What is the "need" for our grouse season? Hunting is not "needed" to manage their populations. What is the "need" for allowing rifles for fall turkeys? What is the "need" for lever guns to be legal for deer? What do we "need" to be able to hunt on Mondays? There is no "need" to deer hunt with anything other than a shotgun with slugs.
 
There is no "need" for semiautomatic actions or bolt actions for hunting, just as there is no "need" for many of the laws and regulations you fully support or have never thought of questioning in the past.
 
The issue is one of opportunity if opportunity exists for hunters in a manner consistent with the mission and values of game agencies across this country.

One other thing to consider is if semi's are legalized for big game in Pa. the value of your older rifles will depreciate considerably ! Who will what a bolt or pump instead of a semi fire ? Think about it .   Not very many, especially younger hunters buying a rifles.
 
I know for a fact using semi auto shotguns all my life it's much easier to squeeze off those three shells just with the touch of a trigger. Shooting at deer would be no different, you will absolutely hear more shots fired at deer just because they are that easy to squeeze off. More deer wounded I would probably say yes, more danger to other hunters , I'd say yes again.
Most studies were states with much lower hunting populations.
 
They say Pa. is behind the times but Pa. boost almost a million hunters year after year.
Most other states aren't even close.
Comparing auto shotguns to rifles....most autos are used on waterfowl...shooting up in the air !.....not level shooting across a field..... big difference. 
 
Once again the gun companies are looking to open the door to more gun sales in Pa. nothing more.
I see no big advantage in sport hunting, your first rifle shot is and should be your best at killing game! Not your second , third , fourth , fifth !!!!!!!!   Really ? 

Trying to compare semi auto shotguns to rifles is like apples to oranges . People will shoot more shells off with autos just a fact. It's just to easy to fire them off knowing a trigger squeeze is all you need. More random shoots will be fired. Good , bad whatever, I think we have enough choices for weapons now why stir the pot .   

^^^^
So, with above logic, you think that a hunter would shoot, even if they didn't see the deer in the scope, just because they can?

Would you?

What bothers me more than the possibility if semis, is that as I sit on my porch this evening letting my dogs self walk, both of my neighbors on either side are hunting out of their trucks. They are able bodied enough to work a job plus farm, but they can't be bothered to get out of their truck to hunt.

BeenThereDoneThat.
Dpms perhaps you can put my thoughts at ease by answering the question; why does a person need to use a semi auto-loading rifle for the purpose of hunting?

 
I already answered it above? There is no "need" just as there is no "need" for a grouse season, no "need" for lever guns to be legal for bear, no "need" for Monday hunting etc.....That is not why I support their legalizing for hunting and have been clear about that.

Also, why limit the auto actions to rifles when handguns have been legal for years? There is no data for this type of gun posing problems either.

 
I agree. I support semiautomatic handguns being a legal hunting device in Pa. 

I do believe it is the person and not the gun but unfortunately "it only takes one bad patatoe to spoil the bushel" Yes?

 
Yes. But your statements contradict themselves when it comes to that one bad potato driving policy. 

In this case there will be bushels of bad potatoes ruining for a few good.

 
Just as there is in our communities when it comes to gun ownership. 

As for comparing shotguns to rifles and in the hands of hunters of whom are novice shooters at best. Really?

I thought you folks could do better than that.

 
The point being made was in the SRA where semiautomatic shotguns shooting single projectile saboted ammunition are legal for deer in our heaviest hunted and densest populated areas of the state. You don't see why that bit of data helps to further the cause?

Brock, good point on the value of the guns, it got quite quiet out there when you ask that question.

 
Huh? The value of a pump gun going down is somehow relevant to game laws and regulations?

Brock, good point on the value of the guns, it got quite quiet out there when you ask that question.

 
Huh? The value of a pump gun going down is somehow relevant to game laws and regulations?


Certain gun values will go down guaranteed . Nobody young will want a bolt when you can hunt with a semi auto. What's the value of a single shot shotgun now days?
Better yet who wants one ?
How about a long bow ? Both are worthless in value. Bolt actions will drop in value as semi's hit the market and pumps won't be far behind. Gun dealers will have plenty on stock in future years.
 
I got news for you there are a lot of cripples waterfowl hunting what do we blame it on?
Sky busting , steel shot , semi auto shooting , bad leads or shooting ? Maybe all?
 
Once again when you can squeeze a trigger and fire off several rounds it's going to happen more then less, especially with novice hunters or hunters that think more shots at that deer are upping the odds of getting it. 
I've seen and heard it with rifle pumps...throwing lead they call it ! 

CAPTAIN HOOK

Certain gun values will go down guaranteed . Nobody young will want a bolt when you can hunt with a semi auto. What's the value of a single shot shotgun now days?
Better yet who wants one ?
How about a long bow ? Both are worthless in value. Bolt actions will drop in value as semi's hit the market and pumps won't be far behind. Gun dealers will have plenty on stock in future years.

 
Which is irrelevant to hunting laws and regulations.
 

I got news for you there are a lot of cripples waterfowl hunting what do we blame it on?
Sky busting , steel shot , semi auto shooting , bad leads or shooting ? Maybe all?

 
Certainly. The point is you claim more wounding would result in semiautos for big game yet I am not sure if you have lobbied to have semiauto shotguns removed from the list of hunting hunting devices for small game and waterfowl due to wounding. Semiauto shotguns have been a part of the Pa hunting heritage for decades and no one seems to concerned about it?
 

Once again when you can squeeze a trigger and fire off several rounds it's going to happen more then less, especially with novice hunters or hunters that think more shots at that deer are upping the odds of getting it. 
I've seen and heard it with rifle pumps...throwing lead they call it ! 

It happens now. It is some hunters making poor decisions.
 
You do realize that in states that allow semiauto for big game, most hunters choose other action types by a wide margin. Is it not like there is gonna be a semiauto in the hands of every hunter. Likely less than 10% after decades of legalization.
 
Is it the gun or the person that should receive the scrutiny? You have not addressed this yet...Most hunters vehemently support someones right to own a semiautomatic firearm irregardless of what bad folks do with them, but then some turn around and oppose someones choice to hunt with a semiautomatic firearm because of what bad folks do with them. Why the changing position if you are in that category?

Reading these 2 pages has been quite entertaining.  Here are some random thoughts.
Ever since the PGC caved to the arrow gun companies I could care less what they legalize or for what season. You will see full inclusion for semis then after that you will see inlines for late muzzleloader season.
 
The 550,000 of hunters on 1st day, please enlighten us on how they came up with that. MHO for that is HR & split seasons. I personally know 20 plus guys who now take their vacation the 2nd week of gun.
 
Brock have you looked at the prices of long bows lately?
 
I also agree that guys will be cranking out rounds just because they can. Especially those who hunt in the farm lands and I'll agree that it is not the weapon but the yahoo behind it.
 
Carry on Gentlemen
Mike

fishin coyote 
The 550,000 of hunters on 1st day, please enlighten us on how they came up with that. MHO for that is HR & split seasons. I personally know 20 plus guys who now take their vacation the 2nd week of gun.

 
Not sure any of "us" know how "they" came up with 550,000.
 

Ever since the PGC caved to the arrow gun companies I could care less what they legalize or for what season.

Ahh. One of those folks I see, lol.

The Game Commission has screwed up deer hunting in this state so bad that more and more people could care less about hunting. Aged hunters as myself go less and less because of slim chances of shooting a "legal buck" ! Younger hunters get frustrated too so could care less.
So once again here they go with another proposal to try and attract more hunters! 
Antler restrictions have been nothing but hindrance to the majority of hunters and the Game Commission still tries to justify it's existence. They are in the business of trying to raise bigger bucks to attract more hunters and it's a fail! This proposal is nothing more than a temporary attraction. Sorry I call it as I see it, after hunting over 40 plus years.
 
Wonder what the next hunting gimmick will be by our Game Commission ?   

dpms

BeenThereDoneThat.
Not sure how you see my statements to be contradictive but I sure need to learn to spell potato.... stupid spell check.

Cause on one hand you have said the poor decisions of some people should not drive policy when it comes to firearms then on the other you said that the poor decisions of some people should drive policy. It is either the gun or the person if one wants to be consistent and not contradict oneself.

Riiiiiight!!!

Those responsible for passing and enforcing such laws should examine the long term ramifications of such laws.

The first question should center around the abuse that will occur and to where that abuse will lead.

You provide data from a simulated study by PSU comparing guns and you accept the results of that study. Yet you are hearing real time facts, collected from field, and you wish to challenge each and every one.

You also champion data you gleaned from other unsubstantiated information such as, number of hunters and, the use of auto-loading rifles in other states.

Great example of one being consistent and not wanting to contradict one's self.


Darn I thought there may be a good debate shaping up, I hate admitting I was wrong. But I am a good sport and I'll get over it.

dpms

BeenThereDoneThat. Those responsible for passing and enforcing such laws should examine the long term ramifications of such laws.
The first question should center around the abuse that will occur and to where that abuse will lead.

 So, when it comes to ownership of certain firearms, do you wish to re-visit what civilians can own due to the long term "ramifications" of them getting into the hands of crazys?

You provide data from a simulated study by PSU comparing guns and you accept the results of that study. Yet you are hearing real time facts, collected from field, and you wish to challenge each and every one.

 Actually, I am not challenging your experiences in the field. I have had similar experiences. There are people out there that make poor decisions. I have provided information to ease certain concerns that exist.  There is extensive data straight from Pa and outside of Pa that is very appropriate to consider when discussing this issue.

[\quote]



******************************************************************

Let's just put the issue of "crazies" having guns of any type to rest. "Crazies will injure, maime, and kill "people" with anymeans available. Including but not limited to, vehicles and pressure cookers.

Although I have killed a few deer with a vehicle but never used a pressure cooker for anything but deer roast and such.

Anyhow, I do not readily accept data generated by a single agency any more than I accept the opinion of self proclaimed experts writing stories in a journal.

I've seen too many years where "data has said"! Only to see totall different and often ill results.

I also take exception to reports comparing PA. with other states. I see PA as being a leader and not a follower by, maintaining hunting as a sport and not a money making scheme.

Now for the so called data and other info provided by studies incorporating such providers as PSU. Remember the state wide meetings conducted across PA spearheaded by a biologist named " Gary Alt"?

Boy the magazine writers sure do, they sell all kinds of subscriptions touting pictures of the wall hangers killed in PA.

I gotta wonder though, if it weren't for the computer age and digital cameras would these same pictures be as readily available today? Or how about if the same electronic equipment were available back in the sixties, would we have been seeing similar pictures?

Oh.. I won't forget the record books, goodness never let it be said the qualifying racks have not increased. But I liken that to hunters having pride in shooting a buck over a Doe. Just that some of us don't need a "record book trophy" to be proud. But of course many of us are required to swallow our pride for the purpose of a few trophy hunters.

Do you remember the good Ole days when a 6 point gave bragging rights over a buddies five point until your other buddy popped up with a 7?

Now days the point count is usually lost in all the talk about the antler score.

Hey speaking of the good Ole days, remember when a guy could take his kids hunting and could find land where they were welcome to hunt?

Sorry, kinda got off course... again. Well not really sorry cause I'm about to ask; how's the big changes, creating them record book big racks working out in the long run?

I see less land to hunt and that aint just data.

And now, with the introduction of auto-loading weapons I foresee even more land becoming unavailable and far less welcome signs, in the future.

For those having concerns with the use of auto-loading weapons for the purpose of hunting (remember once they have a foot in the door) who have, or wish to voice your objections, do not waste your time with a politician or the PGC.

Your best choice is to make your feelings known to a powerful lobbyist.

https://www.pfb.com

post edited by BeenThereDoneThat. - 2016/12/01 14:00:39

When I was talking to one of the PGC Commissioners after the Gov signed this bill into law, he mentioned the fact that semiautos have been legal for deer in our densest populations centers for years with no concerns. The upcoming working group meeting of the BOC should shed some light on whether there will be movement on this for 2017.
 
I do expect movement on furbearers, groundhogs, and small game for 2017.