Pa Game Commission says Mentored Youth Hunting Program enables Poaching

Well it looks like pgc is being very outspoken about its take on the no age limit of the mentored youth program, and that some of the issues that many of us knew were coming.   This from pgcs meeting agenda:
 
PROPOSED RULE MAKING 
G. Amend 58 Pa. Code § 147.804. 
Commentary: The Commission has received extensive public comment regarding concern over the appropriateness of young children’s abilities to utilize high-powered firearms to harvest big game, as well as allegations of adults utilizing the harvest tags of mentored youth unlawfully.  Wildlife Conservation Officers have encountered evidence of the allegations in several enforcement operations this past hunting season.  The removal of eligibility for mentored youth under the age of 9 to harvest big game is intended to minimize both concerns expressed in public comment.  The Commission is proposing to amend § 147.804 by removing deer and turkey from the list of species mentored youth under the age of 9 are eligible to harvest.  
 
It looks like law enforcement at pgc thinks this is an issue and I guess its only common sense that it would be.  Its practically begging to be abused.   An easy way for poachers and next to impossible to enforce.  And an extra very cheap tag for daddy or unca' bubba.

Hard to say.   Some noted and very vocal environmentalists who try to have themselves viewed as "hunting advocates" just so they can have say in management issues, particularly deer, are currently screaming foul, called the commissioners antis, contacted nra and other groups telling them mistruths and total lies that this is some big antihunter conspiracy etc. to get them involved in trying to prevent getting an age limit on mentored youth when it comes to deer and turkey hunting.    They obviously don't care that it increases poaching as to them, any dead deer is a good deer regardless of how it dies.    They also try to gain by the self promotion.   And they obviously feel they gain credibility by aligning themselves in any way with any national organization, regardless of how or why.  When in reality if those groups knew anything at all about who they really were, they'd likely want nothing at all to do with them.    They are also posting all over the internet, mainly the same 2 or 3 people spearheading it and using more identities than one can count, as they always do, mostly for deer related issues though. lol.   Putting on a show for legiscritters, boc members, and any clueless bystanders that they can incite to join the riot. lol    Anyway, don't know if this will pass or not.    Depends on whether the board really cares or not about the maleffects, and if they see through the opposition charade, given the "known"  characters that are involved as the main voice of opposition.
 
Will be interesting to see play out.    My guess is no change just to keep the peace.   But could be wrong.  We'll just have to ignore all the 4 year olds who tag deer when they aren't even in the woods, but at preschool. lol   Not sure if that's worse than little junior who cant even hold the gun, and has the hand eye coordination of a lesser primate at that age, wings a buck or three on his way to becoming daddies little hunter.   
 
Should be interesting to see if Martone getting tossed on his toucus early was intended for some reason or just how things went down.    That gamelands use permit keeps ringing in my ears.  Ralph was also opposed to it.  

They should do away with all mentored youth hunts. The hunter safety course is a good program. If you have to beg a kid to hunt you are wasting your time. I sound like a mean old man but nobody ever had to beg me to hunt or fish you either like it or hate it. There are to many special intrest groups  around as  it is.

Having taught 2 sons to shoot and later 2 grandsons it is my humble opinion that 5 year olds are NOT ready for a deer hunt in any capacity other than as an interested observer- yea yea I'm not from PA but kids are kids no matter where ya find them.
It was hard waiting for them to be 12  to actually hunt with me but even then there are kid issues shooting most weapons capable of taking a Deer and close supervision is in order.

wayne c
Perhaps you can also, while your at it, explain to me why any commissioner or pgc staff member would 'look for ammo" to support their already predetermined position that would support an age limit.   Because what Ive heard from the opposition is that the boc are antihunters.   The boc don't want kids shooting "their deer"  and that's pretty much it...   You don't honestly believe that goofiness do you?

 
I don't believe the BOC are antihunters. We all can be passionate in our views. You and I are good examples. All I am saying is if certain members want to pin this action on violations, lets see them in proportion to other seasons. 
 

For age limit ive heard concerns of safety.   Concerns of enabling poaching.   Concerns of kids not being ready at ridiculous ages and overzealous mentors.   And kids not being able to understand what its all about.
 
Against it ive heard;  the opposition jus' don't want a little kid shootin their deer.  Little johny might not hunt if he has to wait for age 9, but would've if he starts earlier.   Some might want a keepsake for their kid from age one up( yeah, judging by stats about 3 people in the entire state lol)
 
Now which of these honestly sounds rational and which is borderline crazy?

 
You selectively snipped to try to make a point. There have been lengthy discussion on safety records of different age groups using data, safety records in other states with similar or no age restrictions using data, other states restrictions on youth hunters using data, lengthy discussions on violations rates(all opinions as no facts have come to light), lengthy discussions on the totality of the hunt(opinion), lengthy discussions on whether it is all about the kill(opinion), lengthy discussions on jealousy over deer(opinion)r etc.......
 
Some would say it is borderline crazy to continue to insist that the MY is somehow dangerous to other hunters when the data shows otherwise. But many hunters that oppose this program continue to beat that drum. 
 
 
 

lost sage rod sectio
They should do away with all mentored youth hunts. The hunter safety course is a good program. If you have to beg a kid to hunt you are wasting your time. I sound like a mean old man but nobody ever had to beg me to hunt or fish you either like it or hate it. There are to many special intrest groups  around as  it is.

Couldn't wait for my 12 year old grandson to hunt.  He said he really wanted to but it was a battle every opening day to get him up and dressed and out to our 2 man stand.  He would last a couple of hours then I'd call grandma to come get him (we lived about a mile from this stand).  At 14 he shot his first deer, a big 6 point and the first words out of his mouth were "can we go home now"?  This year I bought a used ladder stand on craigslist and put it walking distance from the house overlooking our woods and a heavily crossed field.  He didn't bother coming out.  This was his last year for a junior license and absolutely the last year I purchase his licenses.  From now on if he wants to hunt he buys his own license, gets his a** out here, gets himself up and dressed and gets to his own stand.  Yeah right, I'll be holding my breath.

and you're right r3g3, we would drop everything if our dad and uncles asked "you want to go fishing"?  my first reel was an old shakespere knuckle buster bait caster that I was using by the time I was 8 years old off of north and south pier.  I'm 60 now and I still have those old metal rods and baitcasters in the basement.

4 tenths of 1% taken by 6-8 year olds and none by 5 or younger. Throws that theory out about all those young kids posing with dead deer.

Five Year Old Shoots His First Buck - YouTube

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSzQrcyw_50

By wiredoutdoorstv ·

6 min ·

2,009 views ·

Added Nov 21, 2014Nov 21, 2014 · See Wired Outdoors Field Staffer, Scott Dittman’s 5 year old son shoots his first buck in northwest Pennsylvania!

Does this sound familiar?
 
Deer hunting in the Blue Hills? 
 
Can you imagine if deer hunting were allowed in the Blue Hills?
It’s not that far-fetched an idea.
Continue reading below
Hunting is strictly prohibited in the state’s Blue Hills Reservation, as it has been for decades, but it is an option that is being seriously explored, as officials try to figure out how to reduce the ever-growing population of deer living — thriving — in the expansive wooded property.

“It’s without question: There are way too many deer,” said Judy Lehrer Jacobs, executive director of the Friends of the Blue Hills, a Milton-based nonprofit devoted to preserving and protecting the state-owned parkland that covers more than 7,000 acres in Braintree, Canton, Dedham, Milton, Quincy, and Randolph.
The reservation is a widely used recreational area surrounded by well-populated suburbs and popular for bird-watching, hiking, skiing, and horseback riding. But the number of white-tailed deer has grown so much that officials say something needs to be done.

State Senator Brian A. Joyce, whose district includes the Blue Hills, said 6 to 8 deer per square mile is considered to be a healthy population for this region, but a recent survey conducted for the state Department of Conservation and Recreation found that there are as many as 85 deer per square mile in the reservation.
“There is an extraordinary and unsafe number of deer living in the Blue Hills Reservation,” said Joyce, a Milton Democrat. He said they pose “serious public health concerns” because as their population has increased, so has the prevalence of ticks, which can carry Lyme disease, babesiosis, and other illnesses.
Because deer feed on vegetation close to the forest floor, they have also made a significant impact on the understory of the forest, and their grazing is causing environmental and ecological damage to the reservation, he said.
Joyce added a provision to last year’s Environmental Bond Bill calling for the state to develop and implement a plan to control deer populations in areas where their density exceeds 50 per square mile. He pointed to the deer-hunting program developed for the Quabbin Reservoir as an example of what can be done. Controlled hunts have been held on Quabbin watershed lands since 1991, and they have helped vegetation and improved water quality, he said.
Joyce said the Department of Conservation and Recreation will work with the Massachusetts Division of Fisheries and Wildlife and solicit public input on what measures should be taken. “I expect there will be a program in place over the next year. My sense is that they’re looking at different options,” he said, and “the safest, most humane approach” will be chosen.
According to the Division of Fisheries and Wildlife, there are 85,000 to 95,000 deer statewide, but densities vary widely. Deer populations on Martha’s Vineyard and Nantucket have reached approximately 50 per square mile — and that is high, according to Marion Larson, chief of information and education for the division.
Female deer can give birth to two or three fawns every year, according to Larson. Hunting remains the most practical way to manage the population, and the notion of a “controlled hunt” could take several different forms, she said. It may be limited to bow and arrow hunting only, or the hunt could take place on a particular day.
For the most recent deer-hunting at the Quabbin, hunters were chosen by lottery and the hunt was held in specific areas of the property on specific dates.
Bill Hickey, a spokesman for DCR, said the state will carefully consider opening any additional areas to hunting. “This is very preliminary, and we are considering this on a case-by-case basis,” he said in an e-mail.
“In Willowdale State Forest [in Ipswich] and Wompatuck State Park [in Hingham], elected officials have asked our agency to consider a controlled hunt, but no decisions have been made. Any decision to open additional areas would be done in consultation with our partners at [the Division of Fisheries and Wildlife] and the local communities.”
The Friends of the Blue Hills said that the group is waiting for the state’s recommendations, and that it has not taken a position on the issue.
But many agree on one thing: Something needs to be done.
Laura Beebe, a board member of the Friends who lives in Milton, said she is concerned that the booming population of deer will bring more car accidents and Lyme disease. She said she has also seen the impact that deer have had on the area.
“The understory has been really decimated,” she said. “You can see through the trees now.”
Beebe said she is waiting to see what the state recommends, and she would be in favor of a “very controlled” deer hunt if it was limited to bows and arrows.
“I think people might be more open to it,’’ she said, given that such weapons have a smaller range. “Guns make me nervous. I don’t like the thought of [guns] in our Blue Hills. This is a park. It’s very urban. There are people, horses, and dogs. It’d be a real challenge.”

4 tenths of one percent of the total kill means the 6-8 year olds have a success rate about equal to the adults so there are probably quite a few photos floating around.

"Some constantly point to pictures of kids with deer. Emphasizing that the kill is all the MY is about and not about the "experience". If the kill was all it was about, there would be a lot of disappointed kids and adults and participants of the program would be dwindling down."
 
Actually that's what its all about for many and the only reason this is an issue...its all about the kill.   And that's pretty ironic considering we've been told for years by some of those same people that the number of deer don't matter to hunter recruitment or retention.  The less success isn't effecting a thing....blah blah...    The kill isn't whats important.  We were also told MANY times, most here will remember YOU SHOULDNT BE TAKING THE VERY YOUNG KIDS DEER HUNTING, TAKE THEY SQUIRREL HUNTING ITS EASIER....And that was even being said back when the age was 12 prior to mentor youth!!!   Of course that was the convenient answer, because the topic of conversation at the time was not enough deer.   Now 3 year olds MUST be given the opportunity! lol   
 
110% pure hypocrisy.
 
Now all of a sudden little 4 year old Johnnys too good to ride shotgun with his pap, while holding a walking stick in one hand and a turtle shell in the other.   Little Johnny gots ta have the "aught six" and be legal to plast away at not squirrel, not ducks, but DEER  lol.
 

 

wayne c
  And that's pretty ironic considering we've been told for years by some of those same people that the number of deer don't matter to hunter recruitment or retention.

 
In my opinion deer numbers are very important to recruitment and retention. 
 

The less success isn't effecting a thing....blah blah...

 
In my opinion it does. 
 

The kill isn't whats important.

 
For some it is. Ultimately that is the end game, is it not? With that said, they are many hunters that hunt many days for many hours without a kill.  There is more to the hunt than the kill for many folks and it is the same for MY. Some hunters needs kills often enough to keep them interested. Same with MY. 
 

We were also told MANY times, most here will remember YOU SHOULDNT BE TAKING THE VERY YOUNG KIDS DEER HUNTING, TAKE THEY SQUIRREL HUNTING ITS EASIER....And that was even being said back when the age was 12 prior to mentor youth!!!   Of course that was the convenient answer, because the topic of conversation at the time was not enough deer.   Now 3 year olds MUST be given the opportunity! lol

 
Even with high deer numbers, Squirrels are a great animal to hunt for many reasons. Better weather, longer season, more abundant, good test of marksmanship etc... 
 

110% pure hypocrisy.

 
Apparently to you it is. I don't see it the same way. 
 

Now all of a sudden little 4 year old Johnnys too good to ride shotgun with his pap, while holding a walking stick in one hand and a turtle shell in the other.   Little Johnny gots ta have the "aught six" and be legal to plast away at not squirrel, not ducks, but DEER  lol.

Little Johnny can do whatever his parent or guardian allows him too. Even with MY seasons, some parents will not let their kids hunt till 12 or later. 
 
 

Agreed.  Not much more to add now.  I think this is an issue that will be resolved when it Is resolved regardless of who like it and who doesnt, if not now, then at some point in the foreseeable future.  Leaving no age limit at all is simply leaving things yet to be addressed and no closure.   I could be wrong, but I believe that sooner or later a majority of a board will see it that way also just a matter of when.  It might be this board, it might be 5 years down the line.