dpms
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The winds have shifted(BOC)
Approved 130,000 less doe tags than the biologists recommended. Dubrock had some pointed words. I think the wheels are spinning a different direction now for sure. Between the apparent will of the current board and new legislation recently, there is a sure shift taking place.
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wayne c
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/08 21:27:32
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I have no respect at all for Dubrock, he has been nothing but a pain under our saddle for many years now. The only thing noteworthy about him, was his announced retirement in August... I take no joy in speaking about the man that way, but it is what it is....
What the board needs at this juncture, is a trustworthy, honest staff in the head of deer management section, exec. director and replacement for dubrock so that they finally have straightforward, honest accurate data and suggestions to base their decisions upon. Im not sure if Hough fits that bill, but see him as being temporary still I guess anyway. Dubrock is leaving, and its a good chance to finally get a good man with good intentions in that very influential position. Rosenberry being replaced should be automatic. Not saying it will be, but it definitely should be if higher credibility at the agency is desired.
I would hope it is true that the board is taking the proper and only responsible direction. But there are also other agendas and political pressures involved. Legislators looking out for loudly complaining constituents pressuring commissioners. Bills that would "fix" things a lot more than the boc has to this point. Things they might want to avoid if they didn't want to do a total about face and be forced to be committed to it long term.
There is talk of need for additional funding once again, also discussed at the working group meeting. Also some idiot legislators, pushing for alternate funding yet again.... Lots of things going on, and it doesn't make being perceived as "antideer" in any way convenient at this particular moment in time...so who knows for sure...
Just like the pgc said constantly that it didn't take a year or two to "destroy" our forests and it wont take a year or two to fix them.... Likewise trust wont be restored in a year, but they have definitely made a few strides in the right direction. A nice change of pace from running backwards for the last 15 years.
I am in no particular hurry to embrace or condemn them. I need to see a larger body of work.
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BIGHEAD_1
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 04:48:06
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Sounds like A JOB you should try for Wayne
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dpms
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 07:58:42
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Will be a interesting ride for sure.
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Dr. Trout
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 09:36:07
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I'm no way near believing this board took a step in "the right direction" by simply cutting doe tags... they have their own political agenda they are working on putting in place and it has little if anything to do with hunting.. I still hear guys complaining about the mentored youth program every year... now what does this board do.. allows adults to hunt without hunter safety and even worse == allows them to kill game....
The Pennsylvania Board of Game Commissioners on Tuesday approved a mentor-based program for first-time hunters 18 years old and older.
Since 2006, the Game Commission has offered its Mentored Youth Hunting Program, which enables children under the age of 12 to obtain a permit and legally harvest select game species under the close supervision of a properly licensed adult mentor.
The new Mentored Adult Hunting Program would follow a similar model, and aims to add to the ranks of hunters.
Adults obtaining a permit through the program would be able to take part in hunting activities without first needing to take the basic Hunter-Trapper Education course.
This would be a limited-term opportunity available to adults. Under the program, a mentored adult could purchase a permit for no more than three consecutive license years, at the end of which he or she would have to take a basic Hunter-Trapper Education course and purchase an adult hunting license.
There wouldn’t be much of a cost break between what’s expected to be the $19.70 resident mentored adult permit and the $20.70 adult general hunting license. Nonresident mentored adults would pay an expected $100.70 for their permit. There would be many more hunting opportunities available with the purchase of a general hunting license, too.
Mentored adults would be able to hunt only squirrels, ruffed grouse, rabbits, pheasants, bobwhite quail, hares, porcupines, woodchucks, crows, coyotes, antlerless deer and wild turkeys. Other species may not be hunted or harvested by mentored adults.
Mentored adults would need to hunt within eyesight of their adult mentor, and at a proximity close enough for verbal instruction and guidance to be easily understood. The adult mentor would need to transfer a tag to the mentored adult for any big-game harvest.
Mentored adults cannot harvest antlered deer. Antlerless deer could be taken by using a proper, transferred antlerless license or Deer Management Assistance Program (DMAP) permit. Antlerless licenses are valid within the wildlife-management unit for which they were issued. DMAP permits are valid on the specific properties for which they were issued.
Only one antlerless license and one DMAP permit could be transferred to a mentored adult during a given license year,
The commissioners said creation of a Mentored Adult Hunting Program follows much study on how to apply the successes of the Mentored Youth Hunting Program to nonhunting adults, too.
see.. it's not really about hunting .. it's about MONEY..... why $19.70 .... the youngster do not pay that much to kill the same animals... PLUS they can get a BUCK !!!!! oh yeah and they even get special mentored hunts... just how long till the mentored adults get a day just for them to kill game ???? 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2014/04/09 09:39:15
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wayne c
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 10:45:48
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BIGHEAD_1
Sounds like A JOB you should try for Wayne
I would no doubt be pretty popular among hunters and despised by the enviro-idiots. Unfortunately a little too late in life for that kind of career change. I also don't think I could STAND living in that part of the state. The liberals. The politicians. The pgc. The crime. Its basically the "taint" of Pa. 
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bingsbaits
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 11:49:22
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Gotta agree with you there Doc.. Should be no free passes on Gun Safety.
I don't think you should be able to discharge a firearm (bow/gun) at a game animal in this state without some form of approved gun safety training.
That goes for all involved including the mentored youth...Many of those hunters whom we all complain about being unsafe slobs are also the mentors to some of these youth.
Pass the course then go to the field. otherwise stick to the range...
No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot... Mark Twain
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Dr. Trout
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 14:31:45
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Should be no free passes on Gun Safety. Especially when you consider (by the poor wording) just how far that in-experienced adult can be from the mentor and have a loaded weapon with him (I guess this also means BOTH can be carrying a weapon ????) sight and voice ... heck that could be 100yards !!! at least the youth have to be right beside the mentor and NOT carry a weapon until ready to shoot that weapon... That is not what the original mentor program was to be about ... getting someone involved in the sport was what I thought it was about.. not to provide another hunter to aid in the hunt..... and raise revenue for the PGC ....  stupid .... stupid .... stupid ......... 
post edited by Dr. Trout - 2014/04/09 14:33:01
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Guest
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 14:47:26
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I personally love the mentored youth program, as it's given my now 10 year old son and I some awesome opportunities to hunt together. When followed to the letter of the law by responsible sportsmen, I think it's an outstanding program. I know quite a few other dads and their kids who love it, and are highly responsible with it.
But I have seen the program abused on one of the properties I hunt. Maybe 4 years ago, a guy and his son who I had met in another situation were out on the first day of deer season. I knew the boy wasn't 12 yet, think he was 10 at the time, and they each had a rifle. After some small talk, I asked in front of both of 'em, "So, how old are ya' Mikey?" He froze and his eyes got big as saucers. "11," he said. His dad quickly said, "No, you're 12 now, remember?"
Another guy has a son who is 9 or 10. Both of 'em were carrying guns this year during deer season the couple of times I saw them and the dad told me one time, "I'm going to post him up here and do a drive for him." Reminded him he wasn't allowed to do that. He laughed. Reported to the land owner and to the PGC, though I don't know whatever came of it.
Add to that the tales (so far none that I'm personally aware of though) of dads and other mentors using the kids' tags.
I get the frustration of other hunters over the mentored program. Just like a lot of stuff in life - only takes a handful of jagoffs to ruin it for the rest.
The adult mentored program is a joke.
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dpms
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 15:26:15
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We must remember that there are those that break the law in all age groups within our hunting ranks. They will be infractions in the Mentored programs as well but they are violations of game laws and should not be a checkmark against the programs themselves.
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Guest
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 15:51:46
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I know dpms. As one who loves the mentored youth program, and has a son that loves it even more, I'd hate to see it go away. Just acknowledging some of the issues with it that I've seen firsthand. And like you said, I've seen plenty of morons in other seasons as well without kids involved.
Personally, of the guys I know well that participate, I'd have absolutely no problem hunting in close proximity to any of 'em with their kids. When done right with responsible adults, I think it's one of the safest situations out there.
As far as I know, and I could be wrong, there have been no shooting accidents involving kids in the mentored program yet have there?
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wayne c
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 15:55:01
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I agree with those that say the adult mentor program is a joke.
And doc, the pgc board did NOT put the program into being. There was a bill passed that mandated it, they had no choice but to formalize regulations and implement it....straight from some legislators, and if Im not mistaken, originated with some of the usual PFSC who came up with the idea and put the wheels into motion. It happened pretty quickly and quietly.
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wayne c
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 16:03:31
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I also agree with the mentored youth program even though I initially had reservations and still see some of the "bad" it brings, overall I think it a positive for our sport. Even though the intent for those that pushed it through had little to do with concern for our "youth" and hunting....it was simply killing a few more deer and adding more money (and they admitted that part) to pgc coffers. I believe they said even though the license costs next to nothing, matching funds of something like $15 a pop per license are received in federal!  At any rate, I wouldn't support ending that program and have enjoyed taking multiple kids out every year since the program began. However I would support a reasonable age limit which should only be common sense, and I find it hard to believe that the commissioners have not done so.
post edited by wayne c - 2014/04/09 16:06:55
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dpms
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 17:32:24
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wayne c
However I would support a reasonable age limit which should only be common sense, and I find it hard to believe that the commissioners have not done so.
Kinda hard when kids are already hunting. Be tough explaining to them that because of a rule change they have to sit on the sidelines this year when they hunted last year.
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dpms
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 17:35:38
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rsquared
As far as I know, and I could be wrong, there have been no shooting accidents involving kids in the mentored program yet have there?
There have been three. At least two involved violations of the program and would not a have happened if the existing regs were adhered to by the mentor. The third incident I cannot recall the details. With that said, the accident rate is lower than with adult hunters.
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dpms
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 17:38:17
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wayne c
And doc, the pgc board did NOT put the program into being. There was a bill passed that mandated it, they had no choice but to formalize regulations and implement it...
You sure about that? I think it is similar to the coyote bounty. Laws were created but the PGC is then tasked with the responsibility if the choose to create regs and/or policies.
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wayne c
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 18:37:29
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"Kinda hard when kids are already hunting. Be tough explaining to them that because of a rule change they have to sit on the sidelines this year when they hunted last year."
Trust me, the 3 and 5 year olds would survive the tramatic experience. lol. Seriously though, I STRONGLY feel an age limit gives them something to look forward to. They also don't have the slightest clue what they are doing and I feel makes it impossible for them to ever fully appreciate the experience having been desensitized to it all at such a young age. That's my opinion, your free to disagree, but it will remain my opinion. Have already gathered my personal thoughts on the issue. I think an age limit is the right thing to do. The world wont end for me or anyone else either way though so not interested in arguing the point vigorously.
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S-10
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 18:58:42
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I fully agree on a age limit. A five year old or under has little or no comprehension about what is going on in the hunting field. My self set age limit before I will take someone out is older than that. The adult program is funny in my opinion. I can't imagine the amount of pot that had to be smoked to dream up that idea.
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wayne c
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 19:14:12
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You sure about that? I think it is similar to the coyote bounty. Laws were created but the PGC is then tasked with the responsibility if the choose to create regs and/or policies. hmmm, I believe I was correct dpms, but wont swear to it. No legal expert, but here is the language where they amended the law that was originally just intended as youth mentor hunting.... Basically the amendment. For those not familiar with...the brackets around "youth" removed the word from the text of previous law. Exemption.--For the sole purpose of implementing and enhancing a mentored [youth] hunting program within this Commonwealth, the commission may establish regulations exempting certain limited [youth] hunting activities from the prohibitions specified in subsection (a)(1), (3), (5) and (8). Such exemption shall include a provision limiting a mentored [youth] person participating in a mentored [youth] hunting program to the receipt of no more than one antlerless deer license in each license year. A PERSON 17 YEARS OF AGE OR OLDER MAY PARTICIPATE IN A MENTORED HUNTING PROGRAM AS A MENTORED HUNTER IN NO MORE THAN THREE LICENSING YEARS. * * * Section 2. This act shall take effect in 60 days. From what I read there, it says basically that this is now the law. Pgc may now set regulations to make adjustment to said law as they see fit except that they will not permit more than one antlerless deer tag transfer and will not be permitted to give licenses to mentored adults longer than 3 years. But the already existing law on the books was amended. Because of that, unless pgc "tweaked" things, the law was in effect under the guidelines that were previously set for mentored youth hunting even if pgc did NOTHING. I could be mistaken. That is my interpretation of the law. Even if that is the case, it could just be a technicality we are discussing and a moot point? Since I don't know that pgc boc was against the move at all anyway, and I know that some on staff strongly supported it, if not came up with the idea along with others. .
post edited by wayne c - 2014/04/09 19:19:09
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wayne c
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 19:30:00
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"A PERSON 17 YEARS OF AGE OR OLDER MAY PARTICIPATE
IN A MENTORED HUNTING PROGRAM AS A MENTORED HUNTER IN NO MORE
THAN THREE LICENSING YEARS. "
Also interesting, at a meeting prior to pgc "formalizing" the deal, it was discussed and they were talking about whether to make it one, two or three years. Weiner jumped in and said before they even wasted time discussing, that he believed it was mandatory that it HAD to be THREE years due to the language. He asked counsel, and they said that was indeed the case! My jaw about hit the floor! That ended all debate on that issue. Reading that as stated, it sure doesn't appear that way, but whatever..lol. And that is why it is for THREE years now for anyone who didn't know. It is probably still on one of the recorded meetings.
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bingsbaits
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 19:51:37
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I do think the mentored youth program is a good program.
And as stated there will be abuses to all laws by some.
Set the age to 9-10 and have them pass a "HUNTER SAFETY COURSE".
Hell we all waited till we were 12 and that was a big day in my world back then..
No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot... Mark Twain
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dpms
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 21:53:52
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wayne c
Trust me, the 3 and 5 year olds would survive the tramatic experience. lol. Seriously though, I STRONGLY feel an age limit gives them something to look forward to. They also don't have the slightest clue what they are doing and I feel makes it impossible for them to ever fully appreciate the experience having been desensitized to it all at such a young age. That's my opinion, your free to disagree, but it will remain my opinion. Have already gathered my personal thoughts on the issue. I think an age limit is the right thing to do. The world wont end for me or anyone else either way though so not interested in arguing the point vigorously.
Curious at what age you think it should be set at? Have you seen the actual age breakdowns of the MY permits?
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dpms
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 21:55:22
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Also curious how some of you feel about young kids target shooting and fishing?
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Dr. Trout
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 22:55:53
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In today's world I see youngsters 5 and 6 that act like kids 10-12 when I was that age... IMHO kids are getting smarter and more mature at a much earlier age today. And with all the computer games, TV, movies I think they have a much better idea about KILLING than I did while growing up watching the good guys (in the white hats) shoot the guns out of the bad guys (black hats) hands rather than actually shoot them in the body or blow off an arm like today action movies... and I still can't believe all the blood today's youth get to see almost everyday ....  I would not want to see any age discrimination set up.. It should be up to the parents .. after all they are the ones that will be held responsible in the end if anything bad happens....... while I agree 100% about law breakers ... I must say I see much GREATER chances with this silly program ...
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Dr. Trout
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/09 23:00:48
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If the PGC needs some more money how about changing the law about seniors shooting any buck... I'll bet a TON of seniors who no longer buy licenses may just return to the sport.. worth a try anyhow... isn't it .. and IMHO a MUCH better idea than a mentored adult permit !!! Heck == try it for 3 years ... LOL....LOL.... 
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wayne c
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/10 00:10:16
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Curious at what age you think it should be set at? Have you seen the actual age breakdowns of the MY permits? I have seen partial breakdowns on a coupla occaissions. I ASSUME they were credible numbers, but didn't bother to check into.. Don't recall specifics as it wasn't really something I felt had much to do with my stance on any of the issues. Ive seen it discussed how many permits were sold below some very low ages just to make certain points on message boards. I do remember that I wasn't surprised, nor did it have any effect on my opinions. I don't support a reasonable age limit because there are too many or too few kids under that age going. If you think they are too young, then too young is too young. And it doesn't matter if its 100 or 10,000 Personally if it were up to me, I think 9 would be about right. Although I could MAYBE be swayed a year either way depending on input from others.
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wayne c
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/10 00:19:25
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Dr. Trout
If the PGC needs some more money how about changing the law about seniors shooting any buck...
I'll bet a TON of seniors who no longer buy licenses may just return to the sport..
worth a try anyhow... isn't it .. and IMHO a MUCH better idea than a mentored adult permit !!! Heck == try it for 3 years ... LOL....LOL....
Interesting doc. If Im not mistaken, I believe that is one of "unifieds" bills. Unified and doc... Unlikely and surprising bedfellows no??  Its also a proposal that I disagree with. At least you and I still consistently disagree. The day we don't, I will start to worry. 
post edited by wayne c - 2014/04/10 00:22:01
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S-10
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/10 05:33:15
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All of the fighting of archery vs gun hunting, seniors wanting to shoot anything, and even some of the pro Sunday hunters is a result of LACK OF DEER and will never be solved until the herd is allowed to recover. The interesting thing is it is the simplest thing for the PGC to do and will also increase hunter participation and revenue for them.
In the early days of AR/HR Alt said he needed to remove 100,000 does from the herd to make room for the 100,00 additional bucks he was going to move into the next age class. Now that would have increased the interest of the hunters. Too bad it was all BS.
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dpms
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/10 08:22:53
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Dr. Trout
If the PGC needs some more money how about changing the law about seniors shooting any buck... I'll bet a TON of seniors who no longer buy licenses may just return to the sport.. worth a try anyhow...
There was a bill floated by a rep in these parts and I opposed it. It is still sits in committee. The PGC would be free to change the AR regs since it is a regulation. I would oppose it if the PGC discussed it as well. AR have been watered down since they were introduced. With seniors not having to abide by them after hunting their whole lives, they would be watered down even further and would question if the goals of AR would be attainable at that point.
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dpms
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Re: The winds have shifted(BOC)
2014/04/10 08:24:00
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For those that oppose young kids involvement in the MY program, how do you feel about target shooting and fishing with the same kids?
My rifle is a black rifle
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