Helpful ReplyIs it just me or...

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neaphyte
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2013/10/29 22:31:34 (permalink)

Is it just me or...

are there more guys than ever putting steelhead on a stringer to take home and "eat".  I go back a long way on this fishery and I'm not sure I  have seen so many "fressh fish lovers".. Lets examine this for a moment because I am concerned for their safety and their children's safety.  You catch three 6-7lb steelies and put them on a stringer. Bring em home, and a good fillet job gives you 12lbs of fillet.  Your family consumes 2lbs of fish per meal. Now because all the states bordering Lake Erie issue warnings about consumption of steelhead should be no more than one meal  per month. You have six months of 'fresh" fish to enjoy. Oh and don't feed it to young children and pregnant women at all!  So now they stay in the freezer until June.  And that's if you don't go every other weekend and fill up again. MMM smoked steelhead now your talkin.  Do your family a favor and catch and release steelhead so they can come back next year bigger and badder to catch again. Catch and kill walleyes. Now theirs a tasty fish. 
 
Is this the perfect defense for C&R or what. Were just trying to protect people from themselves!
#1
cbeagler
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/29 23:20:48 (permalink)
I had this discussion with someone a few weeks ago. How far back do you go? Do you remember when they called Lake Erie the Dead Sea? It even gained a line in a Dr. Seuss movie. The Lorax:
"They'll walk on their fins and get woefully weary
in search of some water that isn't so smeary.
I hear things are just as bad up in Lake Erie."
 
Anyway, with Presque Isle Bay finally being delisted, I was wondering how much the rest of the lake has cleaned up. I know that it cycles out every seven years, but as far as bottom sediment.
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fish stick
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/30 08:16:33 (permalink)
Why do you care so much what people do with their fish. They buy the license and stamp they have every right to keep if they want. There are hundreds of thousands of fish returning to the tribs every year. Who gives a rats a** if some come back a little bigger. Chances are the big ones that would return would be kept by some jaggaloon the first time their hooked.
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davef
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/30 08:23:38 (permalink)
It is just you.  It's done of your business what someone else wants to do if the fish is legally caught.
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cbeagler
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/30 09:18:17 (permalink)
A lot of this has been rehashed over and again, and it will be again. No, it's none of my business if someone wants to keep their limit. I occasionally do. But I certainly can present an argument for the opposing view.
 
It happened one time in the history of the board. I was able to find it and I think it was well said so I will post a quote from the day that everyone on Fish Erie agreed to keep their opinions to themselves:
 

 
                                                                                                                                     "
 

#5
Cold
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/30 09:37:02 (permalink)
catch and release steelhead so they can come back next year bigger and badder to catch again

 
Yeah, because over-harvest has really reduced steelhead populations over the past few years.
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Wally Cat
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/30 11:54:43 (permalink)
I may regret opening my mouth here: I too do not care what a person does with their legally caught fish basically because it's their legal right too. However there is a point where legal and ethical cross paths. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it has to be run into the ground. Just like most of our elected officials who often say they didn't break a law just took advantage of a legal situation. We often cry foul when they do something like that even though legal, is far from being ethical.
 
 
Just my nickles worth!

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genieman77
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/30 17:15:30 (permalink)
Wally Cat
I may regret opening my mouth here: I too do not care what a person does with their legally caught fish basically because it's their legal right too. However there is a point where legal and ethical cross paths.




 
help me with the "ethics" part of it, Wally
cause I'm not sure I understand .
Which would you think is  more ethical ?
 
1.) catching an abundantly stocked  fish, killing it and taking it home for someone to eat
 
2.) 1000's of anglers beating up  the same fish trapped in  small, shallow,  clear pools.
Those same fish  are hooked fair and foul, yanked around, played to exhaustion,  pulled out of the water for pics and hi-fives over and over and over again and again ...for our "fun"
 
I don't want to sound like a PETA frEEk, but if we're talking "ethics" here....well, think about it for a minute
 
 
..L.T.A.
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BloodyHand
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/30 18:07:32 (permalink)
I choose option 1.
 
BH
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CAPTAIN HOOK
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/30 19:28:49 (permalink)
I've been around Erie Steelhead & Salmon fishing since 1971. I've seen plenty of fish kept years ago that today's numbers don't even come close to kept limits of past. It was nothing to see over a hundred Trout caught on a average day at Trout Run and most went on the rope. Catch and release was non existent for years. It never had a impact on the runs they were excellent year after year. There were so many fish kept that the Fish Commish had to stop people from cleaning fish along the water shores. They even had a large dumpster at Trout Run that would fill up in less than a week with fish carcases running over ! Once again no effect on the next year's run. Catch & release is a choice we have just as is keeping a limit. The problem is the return numbers of fish are way ,way down the past 4 years ! Not only here but also other creeks and tribs on Erie. I've kept plenty of limits in the past and smoked Steel is a delicious treat! Last ten years or so I've released about 99% but I have no problem with others taking their limit. It won't impact next year's run because the ice flows in the winter will wipe out most Trout anyway. Oh, by the way those fish eating restrictions they apply to Erie Walleye same as Steelhead so don't over eat.
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Wally Cat
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/30 20:04:19 (permalink)
Genie, read my post again. I said I also keep fish on occasion and do not fault anyone from doing so provided they have some useful purpose for killing and keeping the fish other than just being able to say I caught and killed them and then trashed them. That's why I refuse to bring and give fish to friends and/or relatives. Too often months later or the following year they are trashed. The ethical part as far as I'm concerned is the keeping, killing and all the while knowing you have no intention of using the fish.

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genieman77
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/30 22:20:40 (permalink)
Wally Cat
 The ethical part as far as I'm concerned is the keeping, killing and all the while knowing you have no intention of using the fish.




 
 
gotcha Wally
"killing and wasting" is what you're talking  about
I can dig it now
 
..L.T.A.
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krott243
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/31 05:34:59 (permalink)
CAPTAIN HOOK
I've been around Erie Steelhead & Salmon fishing since 1971. I've seen plenty of fish kept years ago that today's numbers don't even come close to kept limits of past. It was nothing to see over a hundred Trout caught on a average day at Trout Run and most went on the rope. Catch and release was non existent for years. It never had a impact on the runs they were excellent year after year. There were so many fish kept that the Fish Commish had to stop people from cleaning fish along the water shores. They even had a large dumpster at Trout Run that would fill up in less than a week with fish carcases running over ! Once again no effect on the next year's run. Catch & release is a choice we have just as is keeping a limit. The problem is the return numbers of fish are way ,way down the past 4 years ! Not only here but also other creeks and tribs on Erie. I've kept plenty of limits in the past and smoked Steel is a delicious treat! Last ten years or so I've released about 99% but I have no problem with others taking their limit. It won't impact next year's run because the ice flows in the winter will wipe out most Trout anyway. Oh, by the way those fish eating restrictions they apply to Erie Walleye same as Steelhead so don't over eat.




If you have $100 in the bank and I took $20 out you would be left with $80. Its common sense that if something is taken and not put back the overall number will be diminished. Catch and Release does help this fishery, whether you think so or not. It boils down to............common sense. C&R helps every fishery with a low number of fish. I bet on an average day at the mouth of walnut (wall to the top of the chutes) in October, a 100 fish get taken, some days way more and other days maybe a few less. That would be 3000 fish in one month. These fish around for 6 months or so to be kept on foot, not to mention the death numbers that come each and everyday from the boats in the summer. Its all a big game to people, who can catch and kill more, who's going to have the best picture at the end of the day to brag about. Keep doing it and there will be fewer fish each year. I would like to see the fish commission implement some C&R stretches in the lower portions of the creek, at least for a few years to see how it goes.

The Lord has blessed us all today... It's just that he has been particularly good to me.
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FishinGuy
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/31 07:49:46 (permalink)
So if you have $1,000,000 in the bank and take out $750,000. Then put in $1,200,000 how much do you have???
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Porktown
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/31 08:18:51 (permalink)
Like most of what Genie types, I agree 100%.
 
Wally - Elected officials and ethical are polar opposites.  Hope this helpa.
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fish stick
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/31 08:19:45 (permalink)
Exactly fishinguy they restock every year with 1.2 million smolts why don't you people understand that these fish wont diminish.
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/31 08:29:06 (permalink)
fish stick
Exactly fishinguy they restock every year with 1.2 million smolts why don't you people understand that these fish wont diminish.
. What's a smolt? I just want to retire early.
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bigbear2012
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/31 08:33:52 (permalink)
C&R is fine if that is what you want to do, but remember the reason these fish were put into the system was to manage the biomass of forage fish.  If you have a larger number of predators, without the supporting biomass, you will simply have nature take its course and kill off the excess predators.....in other words, there aren't going to be significantly larger numbers of steelhead returning unless the biomass of the food increases.

wishin i was fishin
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fishingood
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/31 09:51:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Kevin6wt 2013/10/31 11:00:23
I usually catch and release for conservation and convenience purposes, but have nothing against those who keep fish within the limits of the law, after all, they are mostly stocked fish, that's what they are put there for.

I'm no scientist or environmental expert, and these are just observations, but there are multiple other factors that could be contributing to the decrease in numbers. What about lampreys? What about seagulls and walleyes eating stocked smolts and the smaller fish? What about the algae blooms? What about pollution? I read somewhere that Lake Erie has some of the worst plastic pollution in the world. Google "Lake Erie Plastic Pollution" right now, and look at the images, it ain't very pretty. Heck, there was an article I read on the high concentration of microplastic in Lake Erie just the other day 
 
"http://www.ibtimes.com/microplastics-great-lakes-pose-very-real-threat-humans-animals-1446804
 
Now, I'm far from a tree hugger, and I'm not saying poaching and keeping too many fish that go to waste isn't a problem. I'm not saying that catch and release isn't beneficial, nor am I saying that keeping fish is a bad thing. I'm simply saying that, maybe we should consider the wide multitude of other factors that can be impacting steelhead populations, before we go at each others throats with these tirades about who should or shouldn't be keeping fish.
 
I mean, a lot of this debate has got me thinking lately, and I realized that it seems everywhere I fish these days (and that goes from steelhead, to panfish and big game through the ice, to spring trout fishing, to summer bass tournament fishing, to saltwater fishing), it seems the fishing has not been as satisfactory. And with all due respect, on multiple occasions I will have some old timers telling me how "this is nothing" and how much better the fishing was 20 or 30 years ago. That may be cliche behavior. But this is also occuring in strictly catch and release, or specially regulated, fisheries.
 
A few examples. Spring Creek/ Fly Fisher's Paradise in Central PA, about half an hour away from where I live. Been fishing that stream since I was about 5, back in the early 90s. Pretty much learned to fly fish there, caught my first ever trout on a fly rod there. Still an excellent area to fish, and has some recently opened stream purchased from the old SCI Rockview. However, others will tell you it is not what it once was, it's seemingly become overrun with suckers, and the size and numbers of the trout just doesn't seem to be what they once were. It used to be somewhat common to catch a few 15+ inch browns per day, now you are lucky to get one or two. When this kind of thing happens on a normal stream, people will consider it to be a result of too many fish kept, however, the strange this is, it has been under Trophy Trout Catch And Release regulations, I think since sometime in the 80s.
 
Another one. Foster Joseph Sayer's Dam @ Bald Eagle State Park, probably the lake I fish the most, many big bass to be found.  However, one controversy has been over the lack of legal panfish in the lake. Strangely, the lake is under Panfish Enhancement Program Regulations, in which crappies must be at least 9 inches to keep, and sunfish/ bluegill must be at least 7 inches. Logically thinking, this should help out the sizes of the fish. There are enormous quantities of panfish in the lake, the problem is, it is very common to fish for an afternoon, and catch crappie almost every other cast, and not have one of them be legal. A major difference from when I used to fish this with my father, and it was easy to get enough legal crappie for the fryer within a few hours. Black Moshannon, another lake about 15 minutes away, does not have the Panfish Enhancement regulations, yet the average size of crappie I catch there is probably 10.5-11 inches, and I got a 14 inch perch out of there through the ice last year, not bad for a smaller lake.
 
Just my .02 though.

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steel whisperer
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/31 15:00:26 (permalink)
fish stick
Exactly fishinguy they restock every year with 1.2 million smolts why don't you people understand that these fish wont diminish.




But if less are returning every year and more being harvested? you are going to have the same result. Sooner or later something has to give..... They could stock 2 million and get the same result and same arguments. Keep on keeping every fish that runs sept/oct and have the same guys complain no fish or fishery isn't the same as it used to be..... make the lower stretches C&R of certain creeks and I believe you would see a vast improvement.
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KJH807
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/31 15:12:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby D-nymph 2013/10/31 15:57:25
C&R is great and all....
BUT... then we can't see pictures of guys hold up fish in parking lots/ basements/ and kitchens
 
 
fishingood
I usually catch and release for conservation and convenience purposes...

so
is that before or after you gill****them????



#21
fishingood
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/31 15:35:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby steel whisperer 2013/10/31 17:04:22
KJH807
fishingood
I usually catch and release for conservation and convenience purposes...

so
is that before or after you gill****them????



Ahhh, was expecting someone to stop by and p*ss in my cornflakes.
 
That joke is awesome though, I legit spit coffee the first 1000 times I heard it, couldn't wait to hear it again.  
post edited by fishingood - 2013/10/31 15:45:56

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Porktown
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/31 15:52:38 (permalink)
fishingood
Another one. Foster Joseph Sayer's Dam @ Bald Eagle State Park, probably the lake I fish the most, many big bass to be found.  However, one controversy has been over the lack of legal panfish in the lake. Strangely, the lake is under Panfish Enhancement Program Regulations, in which crappies must be at least 9 inches to keep, and sunfish/ bluegill must be at least 7 inches. Logically thinking, this should help out the sizes of the fish. There are enormous quantities of panfish in the lake, the problem is, it is very common to fish for an afternoon, and catch crappie almost every other cast, and not have one of them be legal. A major difference from when I used to fish this with my father, and it was easy to get enough legal crappie for the fryer within a few hours. Black Moshannon, another lake about 15 minutes away, does not have the Panfish Enhancement regulations, yet the average size of crappie I catch there is probably 10.5-11 inches, and I got a 14 inch perch out of there through the ice last year, not bad for a smaller lake.
 

Panfish Enhancement / Big Bass programs only add to the problem if a lake has stunted growth patterns.  The PFBC will change lake guidelines to compensate.  They only have so many resources to run biological testing though, so many suffer for a while.  Usually having the Amish blamed for keeping all of the small fish (which in affect should raise the average size).  Kind of like trimming un-fruiting stems on a plant.  Less competition for food = larger fish.  It would be nice if the PFBC addressed some of the issues of stunting, ect. in press releases, ect.
As for lower returns on Erie circushead, I'd worry about solving that problem, only if there is scientific research supporting that there really is less return.  To me, the low fish numbers, is just a convenient excuse for not catching fish than one would like.  I find all sorts of excuses (weather, water conditions, wind, you name it) when I don't catch as many as I would like.  Rarely do I ever catch as many as I am hoping.  Not sure if it is just the memories of those few epic days, and thinking every day should be like that or better?  Even days that I am slaying fish, they aren't big enough, or it would be nice getting another species, ect.  That said, I remind myself that just getting out and escaping daily responsibilities is worth it, and blessed to have the oppertunity to do it.  When it isn't "worth it" it's time to find something that is. 
#23
fishingood
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/31 16:18:48 (permalink)
Porktown
fishingood
Another one. Foster Joseph Sayer's Dam @ Bald Eagle State Park, probably the lake I fish the most, many big bass to be found.  However, one controversy has been over the lack of legal panfish in the lake. Strangely, the lake is under Panfish Enhancement Program Regulations, in which crappies must be at least 9 inches to keep, and sunfish/ bluegill must be at least 7 inches. Logically thinking, this should help out the sizes of the fish. There are enormous quantities of panfish in the lake, the problem is, it is very common to fish for an afternoon, and catch crappie almost every other cast, and not have one of them be legal. A major difference from when I used to fish this with my father, and it was easy to get enough legal crappie for the fryer within a few hours. Black Moshannon, another lake about 15 minutes away, does not have the Panfish Enhancement regulations, yet the average size of crappie I catch there is probably 10.5-11 inches, and I got a 14 inch perch out of there through the ice last year, not bad for a smaller lake.
 

Panfish Enhancement / Big Bass programs only add to the problem if a lake has stunted growth patterns.  The PFBC will change lake guidelines to compensate.  They only have so many resources to run biological testing though, so many suffer for a while.  Usually having the Amish blamed for keeping all of the small fish (which in affect should raise the average size).  Kind of like trimming un-fruiting stems on a plant.  Less competition for food = larger fish.  It would be nice if the PFBC addressed some of the issues of stunting, ect. in press releases, ect.
As for lower returns on Erie circushead, I'd worry about solving that problem, only if there is scientific research supporting that there really is less return.  To me, the low fish numbers, is just a convenient excuse for not catching fish than one would like.  I find all sorts of excuses (weather, water conditions, wind, you name it) when I don't catch as many as I would like.  Rarely do I ever catch as many as I am hoping.  Not sure if it is just the memories of those few epic days, and thinking every day should be like that or better?  Even days that I am slaying fish, they aren't big enough, or it would be nice getting another species, ect.  That said, I remind myself that just getting out and escaping daily responsibilities is worth it, and blessed to have the oppertunity to do it.  When it isn't "worth it" it's time to find something that is. 




I've always thought that there was a growth stunting problem there, and the PFBC has held public input sessions on it, eventhough not much has come of it. Considered lifting the Enhancement regulations, and reviving the old walleye stocking program they used have going there, those were ultimately scrapped. But again, I'm no scientist, and not really working off of any empirical evidence here, just my personal experience and what I've heard from others.
 
Couldn't agree with your second paragraph more. I mean granted, it's true that numbers may be down from times past, but I always love when, before I go up, I hear all these reports about how there "are no fish in the creeks," and I go and find plenty. And, every Erie trip I've ever made has been worth it.

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#24
neaphyte
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/31 16:54:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby FiveMilePete 2013/11/02 01:45:50
Beagler. I remember when the Erie /Ontario area was on the news all the time if it wasn't an Ohio trib on fire, it was the "Love Canal" mess. Any way we got passed all that with the help of the EPA, and Clean Waters Act.   I caught my first steelhead on Elk in Nov of '98 I believe.  We've had these discussions before and it leads nowhere.  Do you remember when there was sort of a unwritten agreement that gear guys stayed below Rt20 and Fly guys above, it worked. But went by the wayside when everyone became an internet fisherman.  You know stream ethics and courtesy went out he window up there years ago. Guys always took fish. But now it has become so sensitive becouse there are factions that despite the law they understand will keep whatever they catch and as many as they catch. Not even trying to hide their gluttony. Then there;s the guys that put fish on stringer and drag it around all day alive. Take a softball sized rock and wack the thing over the head for God's sake.  Last spring My 11 year old son and I were walking out and noticed eggs scattered here and there along the banks, we then noticed the source up ahead someone was dragging two fertile females along and they where spewing  eggs from the stress. My son said "Dad that just ain't right" I told him I was very happy he understood that. As for you others who defend your rights to kill fish if you want. your right you can, why don't you treat dinner better.  And of course the original question was ignored why do you take fish to feed your family that contain carcinogens.  I guess it's just me.
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steel whisperer
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/10/31 17:07:55 (permalink)
 To me, the low fish numbers, is just a convenient excuse for not catching fish than one would like.   


Nail on the head
 
I would even say laziness to go away from the popular easy areas to fish.

 
#26
krott243
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/11/01 02:08:31 (permalink)
FishinGuy
So if you have $1,000,000 in the bank and take out $750,000. Then put in $1,200,000 how much do you have???



In dollars, you would have $1,450,000. If your referring that we would have that many steelhead the next year than your assumption is wrong. How many adult steelhead come out of 1,200,000 smolt? I am gonna take a wild guess and say not many. There are so many factors that play a part of these fish's death while their smolt steelhead, a small portion of the stocking number survive and become an adult steelhead.
 
Continue keeping all those steelhead, some day you guys will really be crying on this forum about fish numbers.

The Lord has blessed us all today... It's just that he has been particularly good to me.
#27
World Famous
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/11/01 02:38:15 (permalink)
I firmly believe it is smolt mortality , by careless handling in the springtime, that has been the reason for smaller returns. The amount of fisherman ,on the tribs, has increased 10 fold, in the last 6 or 7 years , and the fragile smolts are hammered before they get down to the lake. At a minimum 10% mortality rate on released hooked baby fish, it has to become a major factor. I have seen fisherman stand in one place and hook 30 of these. This, happening every day for 6 weeks or so, has to have a profound effect on amount of baby steelies that make it to the lake...WF... In the past, EVERYONE at Walnut had a full stringer, everyday, and plenty still made it to the upper end of the stream.
#28
gymi03
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/11/01 04:24:44 (permalink)
If I keep 2-3 fish per week, im an azzhole I guess. SO be it. There are a tons of fish to keep and eat. Its my dime I spend on  my license, stamps, equipment, time, gas money, so on and so forth. I'm not one to let them git freezer burnt and throw'em away. Smoked, grilled, fried(least favorite), and baked with some lemon slices, onion, and a few spices, Steel taste just fine. Some of you treat keeping these fish like you would if I was out hunting Giant Panda. Its ridiculous, elitist BS. Get over yourselves. 
#29
DarDys
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Re: Is it just me or... 2013/11/01 06:01:17 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby steel whisperer 2013/11/01 08:51:22
Giant Panadas don't taste that great either.

The poster formally known as Duncsdad

Everything I say can be fully substantiated by my own opinion.
#30
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