for those (like me) who needed to look up pa's definition of "navigable"
 
http://fishandboat.com/water/public/faq_public_waters.htm
 
seems way more complex than it needs to be.  also leave quite a bit of gray or areas open to interpretation.
 
Does the Fish and Boat Commission determine which waters are navigable and therefore public?
No. Only a court can decide. No agency, including the Fish and Boat Commission, is authorized to determine navigability by administrative action.
 
handling on a case by case basis doesn't seem very efficient.

Maybe it's not an exact replica of any other state's law but some hybrid form, or heck anything different than what PA currently has now.  All ideas should at least be considered and on the table.   Like wayneo73 said handling on a case by case basis isn't very efficient.   PA's current navigability law is obscure at best.  A law for stream access in my opinion what ever it may be should at least be simple, clear cut, and concise so there is no confusion by the public about what might or might not be navigable.

Cold

"Cold" I agree with you this is a unique situation but it doesn't hurt to look at what has been done elsewhere.

 
So altering the laws so that the landowners are forced to allow access is the solution?
 
And track, to answer your question, it's getting harder and harder every year for me to justify getting an Erie stamp.  At this point, it's mostly the friends I've made in Erie that I look forward to fishing with that keep me coming back.  If it went heavily private (and both the hunting and fishing here are nowhere near as privatized as Europe as far as I can tell), I'd drop the stamp in a heartbeat and never regret it.  Wouldn't go to OH or NY either, I'd just stop making trips to the Erie watershed.  Too many good hunting opportunities to miss fishing for slimers in a ditch in the fall.

Cold you are right that the hunting is not as privatized as Europe, but we also have more land so there are public and private options. I have done the wild boar hunt at the place near Slippery Rock and paid to hunt and I know there are many other pay hunting places and hunting clubs in PA. However, I typically hunt on private land for "free." I was just pointing out that my European friend noticed that the hunting setup in PA seems to be similar to Europe with different pricepoints for pay to hunt options and the only real difference is that there is "free" private hunting and state gamelands.

Cold

Maybe it's not an exact replica of any other state's law but some hybrid form

 
Some hybrid form that gives you everything you selfishly want without giving up anything at all, or respecting landowners, perhaps?
 
Kind of like Montana's navigability laws? That their own state supreme court can't get right, that you seem to want to adopt, that would not change the legal situation in Erie anyway?

 
I do my part to take an empty grocery bag in and carry out a full grocery bag of trash nearly every time I visit the tribs.  Usually take it into Girard and dump it in the public garbage cans then have lunch at the dinor.  I can look at myself in the mirror and know that I respected the landowners and feel good about it;  So I could care less what you or others think about my idea that we should all be able to walk at least within the water itself "wet feet" to pass through private property.
 
Your quoted article from Feb. 2012, is a little old.  Looks like their state law still stands today according to the Montana fish, wildlife, and parks site:  http://fwp.mt.gov/fishing/guide/access/streamAccess.html
 

SteelSlayer77
 
I do my part to take an empty grocery bag in and carry out a full grocery bag of trash nearly every time I visit the tribs.  Usually take it into Girard and dump it in the public garbage cans then have lunch at the dinor.  I can look at myself in the mirror and know that I respected the landowners and feel good about it

 
WTF does any of that have to do with easement and access laws?
 

So I could care less what you or others think about my idea that we should all be able to walk at least within the water itself "wet feet" to pass through private property.

 
That's obvious.  What isn't so obvious is why, if you care so little, you insist on making so many stupid posts to try and defend your delusional opinion.
 

Your quoted article from Feb. 2012, is a little old.  Looks like their state law still stands today according to the Montana fish, wildlife, and parks site:  http://fwp.mt.gov/fishing/guide/access/streamAccess.html

Maybe you're having a little trouble with reading comprehension.
 
I didn't cite the link as recent.  In fact, if anything, your point that the law still stands shows how little it matters when the article was published.  I never said anything about the law not existing anymore, you're just making that up as a point you can actually counter.  
 
My point is that if a waterway like the Madison river isn't navigable by Montana standards, their navigability laws would certainly not apply to Elk creek, so your whole premise is based on a flawed perception of reality.

This is really getting ridiculous.  The owners of Trout Run B&T are good people, and in no way should be receiving this amount of negative perception regarding their business establishment.  Any bait shop up there would have immediately accepted this offer if approached by the landowner.  Please remember that it is a business, and good business acumen leads to the pursuance of any opportunity to increase your revenue stream through monetary gains.  Being that I am a combat veteran, my opinion on this topic will probably contain bias and I apologize for that, but I don't think people should be so quick to point fingers.  I understand this is upsetting considering the quality and location of the spot, but I really think everyone is just looking for a scapegoat to channel their frustrations which is a normal social behavior especially in smaller communities.  And that's exactly what we are here, a community of people from all walks of life who share the same passion and are challenged on a weekly basis because the area to where we must navigate to fulfill our passion is considerably small, making fishing extremely difficult at times.  Fellow Anglers, there are sooooooo many Steelhead in all of the streams!!!!!  We can share.  Refusing to shop or make purchases at Trout Run B&T over this is completely ridiculous.  They are a family run business, and that's how they put food on the table.  I will be the bigger person, and not allow this foolish topic to deter myself from supporting a fine small business establishment.  Small businesses are the backbone of America.
 
P.S.  Trout Run B&T ties way better Egg Sacs than Poor Richards. 

It doesn't.  It has to do with the fact that you implied I have no respect for landowners.

 
I didn't imply it.  I said it.  If you think we should have laws that force the landowners to grant access to streams via their land, then you don't have respect for them.

Cold, I'm suprised FishUSA.com hasn't offered you a website admin or monitoring job, cause the passion is unprecedented.  Just have fun and go fishing guys, it makes me sick to my stomach how ungrateful some of you are.  I missed 3 out of the last 5 Steelhead seasons because I was in the Middle East.  And let's just say they don't offer trout stamps over there.  Geez, I'm just happy to go, and the year we have had has been amazing!!!  I've gone up every Saturday since the second week of September and I can't remember ever seeing so many fish this early.  And i'll be back at it this Saturday, decked out with my Go Pro slaying fish. 

Right, if they don't like the public passing through their property while staying within the water of the stream, the water that the public owns.  Then they should sell their property and move to a more suitable location.  That's what I would do if there was something about the property I currently own that I really didn't like.  Since their land value was increased by the public resource put there, they should be able to at least break even after selling fees and paying someone else to move all their stuff for them if not come out ahead.
 
If it's a property where the landowner's family has grown up over generations, then that's really unfortunate.  Maybe they would rather deal with it in that case, but I still feel the same way.  At least it's not as bad as if their neighbor sold gas rights to drill directly across from their property line, significantly devaluing their property while receiving nothing in return and causing a noise and odor pollution 24/7 - 365 days a year.

WOW just WOW!! We here in Pa. have some of the most diverse fishing options available in the US,if you don't like it fish someplace NEW!!I'll admit I've never been up for steelhead,and to be honest probably never will,unless I get to go w/one of my friends that know where to aviod the madness.Really people they're just frigging pellet-heads on steroids.I for one like to enjoy my time alone on any creek or river trying to catch a fish of whatever species.If one's life revolves around just"STEELHEAD" I feel sorry for you,there is so much more to experience and enjoy
Just my 2 cents,
Feel free to rip my opinion,
ac

you all do know that ,in pa., if you own the banks, you own the bed, right?so this idea that you can just walk the bed still means you,re trespassing on private property. i believe this was addressed in the little juniata case. also, to change pa. law still means a "taking" which is illegal ander u.s. constitation.

Personally I doubt many people's lives actually revolve around just "STEELHEAD", that's a stupid assumption.  I bet most posters here, including myself, like to fish many species found in oceans, lakes, rivers, and streams year round. 
 
A lot of the Erie Steelhead experience isn't even about the fish themselves.  When you get out and explore, the natural beauty of the area is actually pretty spectacular.  Also, if your not worried about seeing fish stacked on top of each other, then walk upper Walnut or upper Crooked sometime.  There are some very beautiful areas on the tribs where you may never see anyone else most of the day and still have a chance at catching a fish or two if you work for it.

Let's face it!! Real Estate Attorney's we are NOT! We're fisherman. Catch fish = happy, lose fish = sad.  So let's get on with it!

lost sage rod sectio
For real folks P.A. needs to put on a $25.00 steelhead stamp this should include seniors also. That would generate plenty of funds to repair and replace what all you Mup ears  destroy when you get north of Rt. 80. This is world class Fishing and its going to take money to keep it.

[/quote  look if anyone thinks this is a WORLD CLASS FISHERY ,buy a plane ticket or fill up the tank on the old gas guzzler and broaden your horizon , if you all wouldn't act like a posterior orifice when you get your feet wet, and they come homegrown and imported,  there probably would be a lot more landowners willing to let people use THEIR LAND . And  lets not leave out the fish commish, they started this debacle with no planning of what was going to happen when you invite thousands of people onto a small  private access fishing area, when this started years ago, their where no porta johns or dumpsters for trash, or parking areas, they just promoted the idea, sat back and watched until the damage was done. by the time they started to try and fix the problem it was too  late. I don't think there is a fix for the mess up there . It would be nice if someone came up with a good idea . it's another fishery in pa. and it can be fun at times, but it's not a WORLD CLASS FISHERY ! 

The signs leading to Uncle John's say it, it must be true