Helpful ReplyTubes Update 
krott243
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/20 19:55:49
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chartist
Loopy
Charty chart. You must stop whining about the Salmon River, and Erie, and the Oak and wherever else you can't stand to fish but will be back there as fast as you can. Your fault you spend the money you do just to be annoyed. I hope you gave back the gear you rented in your profile pick.
I am not whining. The salmon river attracts thousands for a reason, it's the best. The SR makes Elk Creek look like a ditch. It's not worth the $80 for an out of state license to fly fish Erie. I wear simms gear almost exclusively: best combination of quality, customer service, warranty. Not everything they make is a homerun....Oh, and Loopy, my condolences for your hometown address, Yuck!
Sounds like you need to take a trip to a fishery without 6,000 fish laying in front of you and learn how to fish. "Salmon River is the best, there's so many fish, Ohio sucks, I cant hook anything there because there's not a million fish to snag, Erie is full of scumbags and not near as nice as the towns the Salmon River runs through, I'm classier than the average guy because everything I own is Simms and I don't drink busch light" Sounds like you need a good old fashion kick in the junk. Please stay as far away from Erie and Ohio tribs as possible.
The Lord has blessed us all today... It's just that he has been particularly good to me.
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bingsbaits
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/20 21:13:59
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"There is a pleasure in Angling that no one knows but the Angler himself". WB
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workcanwait....
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/20 21:25:20
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Thanks for the link Bings interesting read on and on it goes.
Been a lot of attention here on this issue I figured fish commission is paying attention maybe they will surprise us all and open some new water soon through program...nothing wrongs with dreams.
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gymi03
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/20 21:25:59
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I like catching Gobbie, taste great. 450 deg. oil, 3 minutes, dont even have to gut them. 
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pikepredator2
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 04:25:45
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The commission wants to pay for easements offered in perpetuity, which would require the landowner — and anyone who might inherit or buy the land — to allow fishing access for all time.
The above sentence was copied and pasted from the article Bings referenced in his last post. interesting read, but does anybody see how ludicrous this "in perpetuity" policy is that the commission follows? say I'm a land owner who has signed an easement agreement with the fish commission. 10 years later I go to sell my property but have to explain to a prospective buyer that "oh, by the way, you have to let thousands of fishermen trample through and litter up your property because of an agreement I signed 10 years ago".
If I read that article right, the commission does not want yearly agreements or agreements that last several years. Don't you think if they went for these temporary agreements, they would get more easement contracts signed? I would never in a million years sign away any future buyers rights or the rights of a family member who may inherit that property one day. Am I missing something here??????
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fish12
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 07:12:39
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pikepredator2
The commission wants to pay for easements offered in perpetuity, which would require the landowner — and anyone who might inherit or buy the land — to allow fishing access for all time.
The above sentence was copied and pasted from the article Bings referenced in his last post. interesting read, but does anybody see how ludicrous this "in perpetuity" policy is that the commission follows? say I'm a land owner who has signed an easement agreement with the fish commission. 10 years later I go to sell my property but have to explain to a prospective buyer that "oh, by the way, you have to let thousands of fishermen trample through and litter up your property because of an agreement I signed 10 years ago".
If I read that article right, the commission does not want yearly agreements or agreements that last several years. Don't you think if they went for these temporary agreements, they would get more easement contracts signed? I would never in a million years sign away any future buyers rights or the rights of a family member who may inherit that property one day. Am I missing something here??????
You're not missing anything. You read it right.
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gymi03
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 09:18:51
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posted, not posted, i'm fishin where ever I want. call the law, i'll be gone b4 they get there and I'll be back tomorrow. F-em all....lol. ahahahaha. I dont litter, I dont waste, I dont do anything but fish. POSTED!!! WHOOPTY DOO!!!!!
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Loomis
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 09:23:02
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☄ Helpfulby FiveMilePete 2013/10/21 12:37:50
chartist
I paid the DSR $50 a day for six days in September for the privilege of fishing their piece of the SR. And while many do snag fish on the SR, I am not one of those who feels the need to bring a fish home through any means necessary. While Erie has some goofballs to be sure, it doesn't hold a candle to the absolute cretins on the SR. That's why I pay the DSR $50 and I'd gladly pay $100. So, yes, to distance myself from the masses, I pay up; both in fishing location and restaurant choice. I don't want to hang out with the Busch Light swilling crowd.
You are such a freaking toolbag. I can't get over it. You should be embarrassed of yourself being a grown man and acting like you are somebody boasting every chance you get because you have money. Nobody gives a rats azz about you or your mediocrity as a fisherman. As an alum of IUP graduate program myself, I am actually ashamed to hear that you went there. If I see you in Erie ill be glad to test the gore tex of your Simms gear with a Busch Light shower, the kind in the blaze orange cans.
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curtrein
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 09:37:47
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I concur. Stopped at Trout Run Bait and Tackle yesterday on the way home from after a fruitless day on the streams. Just wanted to get a feel for the new ownership. That place is really going downhill fast. Don't get me wrong, it was never anything fancy before but it seems like the Russian dudes had it stocked and maintained much better. Not to mention the old guy that was in there manning the phones and giving reports. "There's a zillion fish in Elk all the way up to 79. It's looks like Trout Run!" Actual words I heard from the man's mouth! Amazing. I really wasn't going to buy anything from there anyways after the alleged private posting/leasing issue on lower Elk but after witnessing the state of the store and its proprietors, I definitely won't ever be stopping there in the future. They won't make another year of business up there. Hopefully someone half decent will take over and turn it around. In the meantime, since apparently money talks, I will be taking my business elsewhere.
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cbeagler
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 10:16:06
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Cold
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 10:47:22
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cbeagler
bingsbaits
http://triblive.com/sports/outdoors/4881416-74/commission-fish-posted#axzz2iJMQ7Op3
Thanks Bing,
That "in perpetuity" clause would bother me too. I personally would want at least a two or three year option, and then renew.
I can't believe that's the only option. In fact, I'd wonder if that sort of agreement would even hold up in court. I think the PFBC would do much better to offer a 1 year trial easement, and then if the landowner decided to continue it the next year, do it in 5 year terms, to the nearest 5 years (that is, any easements now would expire in 2015, then any easements granted after 1/1/2015 would expire in 2020, and so on). This would avoid mass confusion every year when there's new easements, and others that close, etc. Every 5 years, the PFBC can publish a map of easements that will be valid for 5 years, and the only changes would be updates to add easements gained in the mean time. A system like this would give the landowner the peace of mind to give it a try for a year, and avoid completely the somewhat intimidating "perpetuity" language.
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wirenut45
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 11:49:51
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gymi, if that wasen,t sarcasm, thanks for helping close streams for the rest of us, including ,but not limited to the tubes. this attitude gets landowners( tubes l.o. ?) pizzed, posters go up, every one suffers. again, thank you very much(not)
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eyesandgillz
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 12:12:25
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Cold
cbeagler
bingsbaits
http://triblive.com/sports/outdoors/4881416-74/commission-fish-posted#axzz2iJMQ7Op3
Thanks Bing,
That "in perpetuity" clause would bother me too. I personally would want at least a two or three year option, and then renew.
I can't believe that's the only option. In fact, I'd wonder if that sort of agreement would even hold up in court.
I think the PFBC would do much better to offer a 1 year trial easement, and then if the landowner decided to continue it the next year, do it in 5 year terms, to the nearest 5 years (that is, any easements now would expire in 2015, then any easements granted after 1/1/2015 would expire in 2020, and so on). This would avoid mass confusion every year when there's new easements, and others that close, etc. Every 5 years, the PFBC can publish a map of easements that will be valid for 5 years, and the only changes would be updates to add easements gained in the mean time.
A system like this would give the landowner the peace of mind to give it a try for a year, and avoid completely the somewhat intimidating "perpetuity" language.
Do the property deeds/surveys get changed with the easements? If so, then I think it could hold up Cold. There are tons of easements for utilities/roadways, some added after the fact, that definitely hold up "in perpetuity." Signed agreements for blocks of years is probably a better route to go if the PFBC wants to be more successful getting them but they most likely don't want all the leg work that goes along with it and keeping up with all the changes. They should have one large "blitz" to get a bunch of properties under agreements at the same time for the same length of time and it would make it more manageable.
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fish12
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 12:18:12
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gymi03
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 12:21:18
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wirenut45
gymi, if that wasen,t sarcasm, thanks for helping close streams for the rest of us, including ,but not limited to the tubes. this attitude gets landowners( tubes l.o. ?) pizzed, posters go up, every one suffers. again, thank you very much(not)
ahahahaha...like i gives a ****...been outlaw for 42 years, still going strong buddy. I get mine, one way or another. Post it all, i'll still fish it. BECAUSE I DONT CARE!!!! like i said, i dont litter, i dont crap on peoples property, i wade the stream and fish.....some days I keep a couple, most go back for some other dolt to catch. Dont like it, bite me. I'll do what ive done my whole life and enjoy it.
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track2514
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 12:52:42
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A couple things guys, the PFBC probably wants permanent easements because of the following:
1) It would give the landowner lifetime protection under the recreational land user act. This would mean that they would be protected from various lawsuits. This may not be the case for a temporary easement and leasing the land leaves the landowner open to several legal issues since they are involved in a recreational business. For instance, a fishing guide could get into a fight with a trespasser and the trespasser is injured and decides to sue. Said trespasser could sue the guide and the landowner, probably with pretty good success since there are few protections available to those who operate recreational businesses and don't have liability insurance, waivers, barriers to keep trespassers out, etc. This is just one of the potential legal issues and the only way the landowner is truly protected is if the land is open to the public or there is a permanent easement for the public to use the land.
2) From what I have heard the PFBC is offering a significant amount of money for most of these easements. I have heard from one person that they have been "low balled" and they are holding out, but for the most part the PFBC is offering a fair amount of money for these easements, which is sometimes higher than the value of the land (not the value of all the property, but the stream area that is being used for fishing).
3) Think about the planning that goes into stocking steelhead. It takes a while for the fish to develop and come back to the streams. If the PFBC secures a 2 year easement and the landowner decides not to renew the 3rd year, the stocked fish will make their way onto the posted property and it was a waste of resources. In other words, the PFBC would probably need at least a 5-10 year easement to make decisions about how many fish to stock in each creek. This type of easement is pretty hard to price because it is fairly long term, but not permanent.
"The things you own end up owning you." ~~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club
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SteelSlayer77
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 12:52:59
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gymi03
ahahahaha...like i gives a ****...been outlaw for 42 years, still going strong buddy. I get mine, one way or another. Post it all, i'll still fish it. BECAUSE I DONT CARE!!!! like i said, i dont litter, i dont crap on peoples property, i wade the stream and fish.....some days I keep a couple, most go back for some other dolt to catch. Dont like it, bite me. I'll do what ive done my whole life and enjoy it.
As long as your respecting the property and staying within the water owned by the state, I don't see a problem with it. After all that property they bought was once unjustly taken from natives who were here before us. Three of my favorite quotes from Henry David Thoreau: 1) "Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it." 2) "Public opinion is a weak tyrant compared with our own private opinion. What a man thinks of himself, that it is which determines, or rather indicates, his fate." 3) "Many go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. "
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Cold
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 12:54:58
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eyesandgillz
Do the property deeds/surveys get changed with the easements? If so, then I think it could hold up Cold. There are tons of easements for utilities/roadways, some added after the fact, that definitely hold up "in perpetuity."
The apparent difference here is that an easement for a powerline or road must, by necessity, exist in perpetuity, as you can't just "undo" the reason the easement was secured in the first place. On the other hand, an access easement could, in theory, be very easily reversed, as it's simply allowing for the presence of people, not structures. I'm not saying that it's illegal or anything, just that if a landowner sold their stream frontage, I believe that the new owner would/should be able to get the easement reversed if they chose to do so. Perhaps the easement doesn't get nullified with a land transaction, and in this sense it could be considered perpetuity, but I'd strongly suspect that a landowner could get such an easement nullified with enough $$ and a good lawyer, especially if they can prove that the easement is resulting in problems (litter, accelerated erosion, disturbances, etc.). That being said, if the perpetuity clause is, in fact, ironclad, it makes sense why the PFBC goes after easements that are, at present, inaccessible.
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KJH807
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 13:20:02
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track2514
...
2) From what I have heard the PFBC is offering a significant amount of money for most of these easements. I have heard from one person that they have been "low balled" and they are holding out, but for the most part the PFBC is offering a fair amount of money for these easements, which is sometimes higher than the value of the land (not the value of all the property, but the stream area that is being used for fishing).
...
I've heard numbers in the $5,000- 10,000 range.... honestly that doesn't sound fair to me (anyone confirm?) 1500/2k a year, OK but 5-10k for lifetime access... not really
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track2514
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 13:44:35
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KJH807 Your numbers are very low. Here is an interesting article from 2008: The commission has had mixed success buying easements on Elk and other tributaries. The parcel adjacent to Tome's is owned by Mercyhurst College, which is donating fishing rights to the commission for the grand sum of $1, while one of Tome's less immediate neighbors rejected a PFBC offer, claiming it was too low. With a main road and public parking nearby, Tome thinks access to his land is worth at least as much the $144,000 the state confirms it paid to his neighbor for easements on eight acres. http://www.post-gazette.c...asement-system-412325/The case above was $18,000 per acre and that was five years ago. There was also an interesting piece about the easements in the article. In a program that's two years old, the PFBC pays for guarantees of public angling access on private lands along steelhead-stocked streams. Unlike real estate purchases, easements are attached to the deeds in perpetuity even when properties change hands.
"The things you own end up owning you." ~~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club
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track2514
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 13:49:43
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"The things you own end up owning you." ~~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club
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track2514
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 13:53:43
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"The things you own end up owning you." ~~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club
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Riverbum
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 13:56:54
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LOL, this is the most informative reply these posts have seen and the article is 5 years old!!
"Some go to church and think about fishing, others go fishing and think about God."~by Tony Blake~ "Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in. Its thin current slides away, but eternity remains." ~by Henry David Thoreau~
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KJH807
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 14:10:44
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Those are much higher than the numbers i heard... but both of those easements are for big chunks of land and include parking and trail access
$50K was for over a mile of streamfront
$27 was for over half of a mile
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track2514
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 14:19:29
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Here is another one: At an April 2012 meeting of the PFBC, Commissioners used the Lake Erie access funds to authorize a grant of $209,300 to the Western Pennsylvania Conservancy to assist with the purchase of approximately 84 acres in Girard Township, Erie County. The property includes 3,600 linear feet of access on Elk Creek and is adjacent to current public fishing easements. The project will include a parking area and a footpath to Elk Creek.http://www.flyfisherman.com/2012/04/17/new-access-for-erie-steelheaders/#axzz2iNe8CBUF Overall, the PFBC seems to be paying pretty well, but I can see how for some of these bigger parcels the prices seem low.
"The things you own end up owning you." ~~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club
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D-nymph
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 15:00:32
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chrisrowboat
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 22:37:38
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stream easements into perpetuity is the only way to go as the stamp money may not be there in the future. Next reissue of the stamp is 2014.Tome's approximate 1/2mile so $25,000 give or take a few thousand, would be a good price in IMHO. The easement could lower the value of the land and should be reflective when assessed for property value. Easements also give the FBC policing laws that they can't enforce on private property. Remember PSP enforce Trespass issues and a lot of the time other priories take president over these issues, especially with limited resources they deal with along with 1/2 county to police over.( just saying).
If in fact the fines are an issue can't the PA steelhead association offer to appease this?
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chrisrowboat
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/21 22:42:17
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Easements will hold on deeds. Like I have been saying all along county government needs to step in with a plan on these stream areas. It could be dealt with at the planning commission level as to how these stream corridors need to become open green/open space and planed accordingly for development. Even at the township zoning level.
post edited by chrisrowboat - 2013/10/21 22:43:26
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cbeagler
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/22 07:19:43
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The only way to go as far as who is concerned? If I were a land owner and you told me that you were going to hold me to an easement in perpetuity, and that it would even be included if I ever sell my land I would, (a) post it. or (b) just leave it open. (c) control access on my own, maybe a small fee for access just to pay for the trouble of having to clean up after people. What happens if "in perpetuity" I get tired of people stepping off the easement line and leaving trash? Or if the easement is used to get closer to my home to steal stuff? The in perpetuity clause is asking a lot of the landowner.
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Cold
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Re: Tubes Update
2013/10/22 07:45:28
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cbeagler
The only way to go as far as who is concerned? If I were a land owner and you told me that you were going to hold me to an easement in perpetuity, and that it would even be included if I ever sell my land I would, (a) post it. or (b) just leave it open. (c) control access on my own, maybe a small fee for access just to pay for the trouble of having to clean up after people. What happens if "in perpetuity" I get tired of people stepping off the easement line and leaving trash? Or if the easement is used to get closer to my home to steal stuff? The in perpetuity clause is asking a lot of the landowner.
Exactly. With that wording, I can't help but feel that any landowner that grants an easement has either been deceived, or is not really a wise person. To put it mildly.
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